Active Theocrats: The New Apostolic Reformation and The Seven Mountain Domionists

reply to post by logical7

As you already know beliefs are powerful motivators, do you accept that non religious war mongers also act on whatever beliefs they have?

Yes. What does that have to do with non religious good people acting on their beliefs?
Do you accept that non-religious good people act on their beliefs without needing religion to do so?

reply to post by logical7

in short its the thoughts and thoughts are molded by beliefs. You promote freedom of thought but now maybe you'l know that dwelling on wrong/cruel thoughts can lead to cruel actions.

I'd like you to read the article in this thread by sonnny1, and respond to it.

It's the results of a Pew Forum survey that determined that Many in Muslim world want sharia as law of land.
It's not terribly long, so if you don't mind, could you read it and respond to me here about what you think about the survey results?

In particular, how you feel about the large numbers of Muslim people who support "killing" and "intolerance" of other religions? Why is "Islam" not 'keeping them' from thinking those cruel actions are wrong? What happened to make them think it's okay?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

As you already know beliefs are powerful motivators, do you accept that non religious war mongers also act on whatever beliefs they have?

Yes. What does that have to do with non religious good people acting on their beliefs?
Do you accept that non-religious good people act on their beliefs without needing religion to do so?

i have already stated my view as to why people are good.
I want you to tell me whats the belief/s that makes non religious people act immorally? And how you suggest to change it.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

in short its the thoughts and thoughts are molded by beliefs. You promote freedom of thought but now maybe you'l know that dwelling on wrong/cruel thoughts can lead to cruel actions.

I'd like you to read the article in this thread by sonnny1, and respond to it.

It's the results of a Pew Forum survey that determined that Many in Muslim world want sharia as law of land.
It's not terribly long, so if you don't mind, could you read it and respond to me here about what you think about the survey results?

In particular, how you feel about the large numbers of Muslim people who support "killing" and "intolerance" of other religions? Why is "Islam" not 'keeping them' from thinking those cruel actions are wrong? What happened to make them think it's okay?

"killing"?
I read the article, did not find anyone supporting killing!!(don't use such loose terms please)
If you are talking about suicide bombing, you should also see muslims of which place support it, give them an airforce and they will give up suicide bombing. I don't agree to it but i also understand their desperation. Try living for decades in a war zone and then take the same moral high ground after you have watched half your family being killed.

"Intolerance"?
Here's an excerpt from the article

More than four-fifths of the 38,000
Muslims interviewed in 39 countries
said non-Muslims in their countries
could practice their faith freely and
that this was good. This view was strongest in South Asia,
where 97 percent of Bangladeshis
and 96 percent of Pakistanis agreed,
while the lowest Middle Eastern result
was 77 percent in Egypt.

more than 80% agreed for religious tolerance. Did you even read the article?
Do you also see that hostility to other religions is more where america is interfering more.

reply to post by logical7

Try living for decades in a war zone and then take the same moral high ground after you have watched half your family being killed.

I understand that those people have seen atrocities and suffered enormous losses - losses beyond bearing. I understand that it must be devastating, demoralizing, and that they are despairing. I haven't lived it, but I can imagine how horrific it would be to see the waste and death of so many people.

To be honest, I hope I never do.

I would ask you though - why are their homelands "war-zones" for decades on end?
This is the thing I would like to eradicate.
It's also the thing that worries me about the people/organization described in the OP.

If a group of powerful people become zealous and hateful, then war-zones are inevitable. Nobody likes a tyrant.

I'm rather exhausted and feeling pretty beat up on ATS the last couple of days; so I really don't have much else to say right now. It makes me very sad and demoralized when people accuse me of being a hypocrite, or ignorant. I am the first to admit that I don't know everything, nor have I lived the life of anyone else, or been in a war-zone, EVER.

My hope is that one day soon, there will be NO WAR ZONES. Not spiritual warfare, or military warfare, or rebellions or guerrilla warfare, or maiming and starvation and oppression and killing. Not religious warfare, or warfare based on greed or having control of the entire world in the hands of a few.

I don't wish harm or suffering on ANYONE who is honestly trying to live a decent and good life, to have peace and security in which to raise their children, or build a family of their own, or work toward a career that they are passionate about.

I just HATE all the HATRED.
The Golden Rule is all we need.

Did you even read the article?

Yes, I did, or I would not have asked you to read it and respond to it! Apparently we viewed it from different perspectives. That's to be expected, of course. We aren't yet finished building the bridge, so we can't meet in the middle and have a 360-degree view of things from the same angle. That's what discussion is about, and open-minded, active listening.
Have a peaceful day, log7.
~wild

reply to post by wildtimes

I understand that those people have seen atrocities and suffered enormous losses - losses beyond bearing. I understand that it must be devastating, demoralizing, and that they are despairing. I haven't lived it, but I can imagine how horrific it would be to see the waste and death of so many people. To be honest, I hope I never do.

i appreciate your understanding
i also hope you never have to suffer like that wildtimes.
Honestly i feel sad for Americans who have been fooled to be scared of muslims/islam/sharia to further an agenda and change of laws and ultimately it will turn against Americans but it will be too late!

I would ask you though - why are
their homelands "war-zones" for
decades on end?
This it the thing I would like to
eradicate.
It's also the thing that worries me about the people/organization
described in the OP.

i have no love for people in the OP.
"war-zones" are either strategically important geographical areas or rich in resources.
Israel is an example for destroying your theory that only religious people can kill in the name of religion. Its a state established on a promise in OT! Yet secular governments support it and kill for it!
The world only has people who will do wrongs for personal gains what excuses they use does not matter.

I'm rather exhausted and feeling
pretty beat up on ATS the last couple
of days; so I really don't have much
else to say right now. It makes me
very sad and demoralized when
people accuse me of being a hypocrite, or ignorant.

I am sorry if i was also among the ones who made you feel like that.

Its very frustating to see when people look at muslims in a dehumanising way, like we don't have the natural ability to see right and wrong like others.
If majority muslims support sharia then they are not all fanatics maybe the sharia they see and what MSM shows is completely opposite! You talked about brainwashing, the sad reality is Americans/west have been brainwashed to hate Islam/Muslims to create an enemy and then go to war with them. Your economy is a war based one now. You hoping for wars to stop is the same as you hoping for the dollar to collapse!

Salam

reply to post by logical7

the sad reality is Americans/west have been brainwashed to hate Islam/Muslims to create an enemy and then go to war with them. Your economy is a war based one now. You hoping for wars to stop is the same as you hoping for the dollar to collapse!

I think 9/11 was the catalyst for the animosity of the last decade. Whoever orchestrated that event (and I'm uncertain who it was) intended to create devastation, suspicion, intolerance, and death.

Yes, the leaders of the past 'used '"war" to enrich themselves or to subdue "enemies" and control their resources - and the system of the Military-Industrial Complex is VERY MUCH TO BLAME. Only by looking back can we see that for what it was. .... and only by looking forward can we make sure it NEVER happens again!!

I don't understand how wanting wars to stop is equivalent to wanting the dollar the collapse.
I don't really care if the dollar collapses AS LONG AS EVERYONE IS CARED FOR. Me, my family, my countrymen, and people all over the world. I hate the money system, and I feel that the stock markets work on imaginary self-perpetuation.
You think Americans WANT war? Nonono. NO! Only the nutters and zealots promote "war."

America under Pres Obama has actually pulled way back on foreign policy. Some people are upset about that, saying it's America's place to "intervene", to "lead" the world. (Another interview I heard on National Public Radio.). I disagree. I believe it is BETTER for America to butt out of the rest of the world and look to cleaning up our own "house."

In fact, just today while running errands, I learned of a Progressive Christian Pastor named Jim Wallis, who just wrote a book about the common good being the really important thing!! It's entitled "On God's Side: For the Common Good."

THIS MAN is a stellar example of what Christians AND ALL WORLD leaders OUGHT TO BE DOING.
The link is to an article he wrote about why he wrote that book, and how politics and religion have usurped the teachings of Jesus (and apparently Mohammed insofar as he promoted tolerance and all the good things you've pointed out to me).

We've lost something as a nation when we can no longer look at one another as people, as Americans, and -- for people of faith -- as brothers and sisters. Differing opinions have become worst enemies and political parties have devolved into nothing more than petty games of blame.

During a three-month sabbatical, observing this mess we've gotten ourselves into, I prayed, meditated, read -- and then I put pen to paper. The resulting book gets to the root of what I believe is the answer to our current state of unrest.
It is not about right and left -- or merely about partisan politics -- but rather about the quality of our life together. It's about moving beyond the political ideologies that have both polarized and paralyzed us, by regaining a moral compass for both our public and personal lives -- by reclaiming an ancient yet urgently timely idea: the common good.

It was refreshing to hear an interview with him on the radio today discussing his ideas, and I immediately went online to look him up and learn more, with full intention of bringing his ideas here to the ATS table.

He himself chastises the Far-Right Christian Coalition as being guilty of wrong-doing.

He is the type of "Christian" that is sincere, and that I admire. Same, so far, with the new Pope Francis.

I can only hope that people like them are able to make a real difference and stop all the 'pseudo-religious' persecution of others.

reply to post by logical7

I want you to tell me whats the belief/s that makes non religious people act immorally? And how you suggest to change it.

I think it is GREED and SELFISHNESS that makes people act immorally.

I suggest that the world leaders need to work toward PEACE and UNDERSTANDING of other belief-systems, and work TOGETHER to ensure the safety and sustenance of everyone alive.

Like I said: The Golden Rule. Treat others as you would like be treated.
That's my entire premise. Live by The Golden Rule, that is actually the lowest common denominator, and it is common to ALL ancient religions if they are looked at closely, including Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Muslim, etc.

reply to post by logical7

Yet secular governments support it and kill for it!
The world only has people who will do wrongs for personal gains what excuses they use does not matter.

I am conflicted on support for Israel. I understand the ancient history of the Jews, and think that Isreal should be left to deal with it's own problems - and that they should stop fighting with the Palestinians and other Muslims.

I've read about the reasons they hate each other, about how "humiliated" Islam was by the defeat handed to them. I don't know all of it, but I do know the basic gist of it as it has been written by some experts. It's a grudge. And it's time to let it go.

reply to post by wildtimes

I don't understand how wanting wars to stop is equivalent to wanting the dollar the collapse. I don't really care if the dollar collapses AS LONG AS EVERYONE IS CARED FOR. Me, my family, my countrymen, and people all over the world. I hate the money system, and I feel that the stock markets work on imaginary self- perpetuation. You think Americans WANT war? Nonono. NO! Only the nutters and zealots promote "war."

the dollar is linked to oil now, not gold as before, petro-dollar.
Oil rich countries can only sell oil in dollars, Saddam started selling it in Euros, Gaddafi wanted to sell it in gold Dinars, guess what happened to them and their countries!!
If America loses control on ME oil rich countries they will start selling oil in other currencies and nobody will need dollars to trade.

You are kind hearted to put well being of humans above collapse of dollar, but not the people in power and profit oriented corporate Giants.

Yes, Americans don't want war thats the reason a justification is needed, 9/11, 7/7 etc.

I learned of a Progressive
Christian Pastor named Jim Wallis, who
just wrote a book about the common
good being the really important
thing!! It's entitled "On God's Side: For the Common Good." THIS MAN is a stellar example of
what Christians AND ALL WORLD
leaders OUGHT TO BE DOING.

yes i agree.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

I want you to tell me whats the belief/s that makes non religious people act immorally? And how you suggest to change it.

I think it is GREED and SELFISHNESS that makes people act immorally.

I suggest that the world leaders need to work toward PEACE and UNDERSTANDING of other belief-systems, and work TOGETHER to ensure the safety and sustenance of everyone alive.

Like I said: The Golden Rule. Treat others as you would like be treated.
That's my entire premise. Live by The Golden Rule, that is actually the lowest common denominator, and it is common to ALL ancient religions if they are looked at closely, including Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Muslim, etc.

I wish every kid gets a unicorn pony to play with!!
I am sorry Wildtimes, i need a real motivator for world leaders, if they were good these problems would never have come up. How do you suggest that they are motivated to be good. What profit they get in it?
Peace is not profitable, war is.
Health is not, diseases are.
Satisfaction in little is not, consumerism is..

Golden rule is great but whats the motivator to follow it?
If a thief has a gun(power) and a man has money, why should the thief follow the golden rule?

reply to post by wildtimes

I've read about the reasons they hate each other, about how "humiliated" Islam was by the defeat handed to them. I don't know all of it, but I do know the basic gist of it as it has been written by some experts. It's a grudge. And it's time to let it go.

its not "humiliation". Its outright injustice and oppression. The british had colonised the area and when they left, they planted the poisonous seed of israel as arranged beforehand as a payback for the jews who managed to persuade USA to join WWII.
Its a religious thing to the core, achieved by manipulation of secular governments by using influence and greed.

Its not a grudge, israel refuses to co-exist peaceful, refuses to respect the borders decided by the UN, refuses Palastinians to move freely in their own country.
They want all muslims out, they want parts of egypt(sinai), Jordan, Syria to restore the historical israel in the OT.(they had wars/clashes with all 3 when they attempted it before)
Are you still in conflict about Israel being a peaceful secular state? Btw, yes people in the OP are all in for the plan. They won't hesitate to lick the dirt off the feet of the "chosen people" if asked to!!

You do admit your ignorance, try and find more before you judge people, i know you don't do it intentionally. However incomplete knowledge can give a distorted picture.
America is already a lot under control of the type of people in OP. Blind support to israel and ignoring the crimes its doing is a clear example.
I hope you see the full picture soon because even you will be pulled in willingly or unwilling and i don't want a good person like you get fooled to support the oppressors and hate the oppressed.

reply to post by logical7

America is already a lot under control of the type of people in OP. Blind support to israel and ignoring the crimes its doing is a clear example.
I hope you see the full picture soon because even you will be pulled in willingly or unwilling and i don't want a good person like you get fooled to support the oppressors and hate the oppressed.

I agree with you that blind support for Israel is wrong, and it makes me SICK that people like those described in the OP want war and will support Israel. I think it's insane.

I'm doing my best to see the full picture - I can only learn so much in a day, or a month, or a lifetime. How can ANYONE see "the whole picture"? It's too big and complicated. Sometimes I wonder if even the world "leaders" know what's really going on. They may be "fooled" by their "handlers" and "advisors."

I too may get "fooled" - maybe I already am. We are all susceptible to that - but I will never support oppression of those who are simply trying to live their lives with a feeling of safety and security. I will never support violence or force.

I thank you for your concern. Namaste.

reply to post by wildtimes

I will never support oppression of those who are simply trying to live their lives with a feeling of safety and security. I will never support violence or force.

what about supporting the right of the oppressed to fight back against the oppressor? In a word JIHAD
so, do you support Jihad Wildtimes?

reply to post by logical7

what about supporting the right of the oppressed to fight back against the oppressor? In a word JIHAD
so, do you support Jihad Wildtimes?

No. That should be obvious. You have a very strange way of discourse sometimes. Are you trying to "annoy me" again? (Fail. )
What a ridiculous assertion.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

what about supporting the right of the oppressed to fight back against the oppressor? In a word JIHAD
so, do you support Jihad Wildtimes?

No. That should be obvious. You have a very strange way of discourse sometimes. Are you trying to "annoy me" again? (Fail.

)
What a ridiculous assertion.

I am just trying to assess how deep your aversion to the word JIHAD goes and also point to out how muslims associate it as a positive word meaning stuggle and fighting back injustice and restoring peace and freedom.

I wasn't trying to annoy you atleast not this time.

next question, will you support SHARIA IF, it will give everything that you wish for humanity?

EDIT: BTW why no to jihad?

reply to post by logical7

next question, will you support SHARIA IF, it will give everything that you wish for humanity?

It won't, so that would be another "No."

I'll say with reservations, that I'd maybe support your guy Umar's (what is "r.a"?) philosophy, but I will not support Sharia or become a Muslim. Ever.

I've already seen what happens when some people who believe in Sharia and Jihad get riled up. PEOPLE DIE.
I know what is happening all over the world results in PEOPLE DYING. Religion does not fix things. Compassion and tolerance fix things.

People get maimed by other people. Women are treated like sub-humans and made to "cover themselves", as though their very existence is a foul thing. They are not allowed to speak to men outside their families, they are not allowed education or positions of leadership.

I support The Golden Rule only.

"Revenge" for insults or injury (whether real or imagined) is never okay, it damages the soul.

I support Ghandi's method.
And pony unicorns for every kid.

reply to post by logical7

I am just trying to assess how deep your aversion to the word JIHAD goes and also point to out how muslims associate it as a positive word meaning stuggle and fighting back injustice and restoring peace and freedom.

Tell that to the survivors and the victims of 9/11.

THAT DAY, logical7, America was changed. I will NEVER forget exactly where I was and what I was doing or how horrified I was. It is the closest (in proximity) event of war I'd ever witnessed - and only on the TV - to what I know goes on over in the Middle East and any other WAR ZONE.

I'd also never heard of "jihad" until then. Tell me, logical7, who do you believe is responsible for the devastation of 9/11? I mean the act itself, not the "philosophical reasons" it might have been based on, or centuries old hatred for others, or to stir up the people.

The actual FLYING OF THE PLANES into those BUILDINGS? Who?
(As I've said before, I don't know who is responsible - but whoever it was certainly WAS NOT working for universal peace and freedom.)

reply to post by Kharron

So our fanatics are no different than other fanatics around the world?

We have our own people with their own version of Sharia Law, who think the rest of us should follow it?

No different????

I don’t think 7 Mountain nutters are running around the globe killing people in the name of Jihad!! As a matter of fact, they aren’t killing anyone (in the name of religion or otherwise).

Apples and oranges, friend!

reply to post by seabag

I don’t think 7 Mountain nutters are running around the globe killing people in the name of Jihad!! As a matter of fact, they aren’t killing anyone (in the name of religion or otherwise).

Yet.

But they ARE running around identifying which "demons" are infesting people, areas, organizations, etc. And they ARE promoting WAR with Iran - which means they'd be fine with sending our youths overseas to kill other people. And they ARE spreading rumours.

Thanks for the contribution.

I'm becoming exhausted by all of the hateful rhetoric between factions.
I'm weary. I think a lot of us are weary - of the tension, the destruction, the senseless killing, the oppositional and confrontational crap that is tearing this world to pieces. Some days I'm near tears with it. Other days I actually cry.
Feel like I'm overdosing.
*looks around for sand in which to insert head*