Bush re-elected, will Blair??

Originally posted by Chris McGee
I don't know, here's a sample of some of the crme policies:

� Within the first day of a Conservative Government, we will announce plans to prevent police officers having to fill in a form every time they stop someone.
� Within the first week, we will announce the ending of Labour�s early release from prison scheme.
� Within the first month, we will start our new prison building programme and the recruitment of an extra 5,000 police officers each year.

I agree with all of this, hopefully it'll arrest the decline on the streets of Britain.

- Well Chris you might believe this 'rising tide' crap but personally I find a Police force released from having to justify it's actions a tad scary.

I'll also prefer to look at the results of the last tory gov where they managed to double crime overall before I believe any of their 'we're gonna' claims.

As for the budget, it's not just the Tories who say it's messed up, most economists say there is a black hole that Brown won't be able to fill.

Gordon Brown is going to break his own �golden rule� of borrowing solely for investment over the economic cycle. Indeed, the only way he won�t do so is by redefining the economic cycle (cries of "Fix!" from the back).
www.moneyextra.com...

-
Look Chris matey go check it out. Here's the facts.

In addition to the tory party wailing about the impending economic doom ever since this gov was elected in 1997 the 'city of London' financial institutions and the so-called experts there have also been wrong almost every time.

The one group who have been right the most have been the UK treasury with their economic model.

......and this, yet again, predicts - with reasonable allowances made for any unforeseen surprises - a reasonable future ahead.

Suck it up.

Well, sminkey, I live in a pretty crappy area and I experience the 'rising tide' almost every day. What I want is for the police in this country to be out on the beat, protecting British citizens rather than sitting in a police station filling out forms. Where you got not having to justify their actions from, i do not know.

As for Gordon's economic forecasts and performance, I suggest you check out the facts.

The Chancellor was forced to increase greatly his forecasts for the amount the Government will borrow this year as the worsening health of public finances became clear.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../money/2003/12/11/cnbud11.xml

Biggest deficit in a decade? Bravo, Gordon.

A year ago the chancellor predicted export growth of 5.5% in 2004; this now turns out to be only 2.25%.

politics.guardian.co.uk...

That's some nice forecasting.


edit: If all you have to debate with is the past then you have no argument at all. Remember the 70s? Winter of discontent ring a bell?

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Chris McGee]

Originally posted by Chris McGee
Well, sminkey, I live in a pretty crappy area and I experience the 'rising tide' almost every day. What I want is for the police in this country to be out on the beat, protecting British citizens rather than sitting in a police station filling out forms.

- There are currently record numbers of British cops out on the streets.
It might not be perfection everywhere but this govs' is a much better record on crime than your tory mates' one.

Where you got not having to justify their actions from, i do not know.

- If they are no longer required to properly log and file reports on their actions what would you call it?

As for Gordon's economic forecasts and performance, I suggest you check out the facts.

The Chancellor was forced to increase greatly his forecasts for the amount the Government will borrow this year as the worsening health of public finances became clear.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../money/2003/12/11/cnbud11.xml

Biggest deficit in a decade? Bravo, Gordon.

- Except, of course and so drearily predictably, that that is a typical 'Torygraph' lie based on statistical number-play.

It is true that the bald number in this case is a record but as a % of spending the equivelent peak under John Major would have been around �90 -100 billion in 'real terms' (todays money).

A year ago the chancellor predicted export growth of 5.5% in 2004; this now turns out to be only 2.25%.

politics.guardian.co.uk...

That's some nice forecasting.

- So what? You found a single small statistic at half what was predicted......it is still nothing like the dire recession and disaster your friends have been laughably predicting since day of of this gov in 1997.

7.5 yrs of being completely wrong every timeon any economic forecast of any substance.
Wow, the party of economic competence, not!

If all you have to debate with is the past then you have no argument at all. Remember the 70s? Winter of discontent ring a bell?

- What we have Chris is a gov's record.
It is our experience with a particular parties' instincts and methods which guide us in our choices when it comes to polling day. As is the case with every gov that has ever been.

The tory party so greiviously hurt the UK public that they are not going to be back in power for a long long time yet - if ever again.

Then there is the small matter that Labour have managed things quite well and managed to avoid a single recession never mind the tory experience of the 2 longest deepest most damaging ones post war, with the massive unemployment, sky high interest rates, record rates of home repossessions and all the rest .

Tough luck matey but that is exactly what all the over 30's remember because for many it was their day in day out hardship.

As for remembering old Labour's tough times, well OK but all you are doing there by mentioning this is illuminating how much the party has actually and genuinely changed and maintained that change.....

......whereas before the 'winter of discontent' would have frightened voters now it simply serves to underline the revolution that has happened in the Labour party - in stark contrast to the tory party and their recall - as leader (!? ) of Michael 'Mr Poll Tax himself' Howard'!

Not very clever politics if you ask me but then I'm not some kind of dopey tory stategist.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- There are currently record numbers of British cops out on the streets.
It might not be perfection everywhere but this govs' is a much better record on crime than your tory mates' one.

There are currently record numbers of British police in cars or in stations doing paperwork.

If they are no longer required to properly log and file reports on their actions what would you call it?

Again, no-one is saying they will no longer need to log and file reports. You have no case on this, a point proven by your previous two posts on this matter.

It is true that the bald number in this case is a record but as a % of spending the equivelent peak under John Major would have been around �90 -100 billion in 'real terms' (todays money).

OK, lets dive into the past. Go look at the economy that Blair and Co inherited from the Tories.

So what? You found a single small statistic at half what was predicted......it is still nothing like the dire recession and disaster your friends have been laughably predicting since day of of this gov in 1997.

READ THE WHOLE LINK

7.5 yrs of being completely wrong every timeon any economic forecast of any substance.
Wow, the party of economic competence, not!

Again, go and look at the economy Labour inherited from the Tories.

It is our experience with a particular parties' instincts and methods which guide us in our choices when it comes to polling day. As is the case with every gov that has ever been.

As for remembering old Labour's tough times, well OK but all you are doing there by mentioning this is illuminating how much the party has actually and genuinely changed and maintained that change.....

Make your mind up. Also, the poll tax cost a lot less than the council tax does now. Can you justify the crippling tax burden that has been imposed on the British public?

The Labour party inherited a very strong economy from the Tories. For the first couple of years Gordon Brown was committed to Tory spending plans. Since he has been released from those plans we have been running deficit upon deficit. Can you give a credible reason for that?

Not very clever politics if you ask me but then I'm not some kind of dopey tory stategist.

Pfft, great argument.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Chris McGee]

Originally posted by Chris McGee
There are currently record numbers of British police in cars or in stations doing paperwork.

- Yeah, of course they all are.

Tell me, do you believe any old tory propaganda without the slightest bit of consideration or question?

Again, no-one is saying they will no longer need to log and file reports.

- Of course they aren't!
The tories know the last thing they want to get into is the detail of what they actually mean about any of this cos the detail (if there is any, at all!) makes clear what shallow populist crud this 'idea' actually is.

You have no case on this, a point proven by your previous two posts on this matter.

- I think you should consider a little just what paperwork the cops do complete when they have to now and what that is all about.....and that it has already been looked at several times to see what can be taken away.

OK, lets dive into the past. Go look at the economy that Blair and Co inherited from the Tories.

- Do you mean the record level of gov debt which was also accellerating at a record rate?
The debt that was eating up ever increasing numbers of billions of � just in 'dead' debt interest repayment and taking funds away which could have been spent on actual services/ pensions/investment, hmmm?

READ THE WHOLE LINK

- You mean believe this piece of speculation despite all the other wrong speculaion?!

Again, go and look at the economy Labour inherited from the Tories.

- Yeah, shattered public services and a gov up to it's eyeballs in debt, a debt growing faster than under any gov previously.
This is simply yet another tory lie/myth.

As far as the economy goes your guys had their go and screwed up royally - twice! - to claim this gov's much better running of the economy is all down to the troy 'legacy' is the height of dellusion.....as everyone but the tiny band of tory support knows (as will be proven for the 3rd landslide running come polling day in approx 6 months or so).

Make your mind up.

- You found that inconsistant? How?

Also, the poll tax cost a lot less than the council tax does now.

- Yeah right.
Tell you what then matey.....you convince your party to stand on a platform of returning the poll tax.....and see how many tens of MPs you get returned at the next poll.

That was a good one, very funny!

Can you justify the crippling tax burden that has been imposed on the British public?

- I don't have to because the vast bulk of the UK public do not face a "crippling tax burden".
Another tory lie (cynically and transparently designed to 'cash in' on everybodies' feeling that they don't like paying tax and that we all pay too much).

To face an increased tax burden in the UK you have to be paying tax at the highest rate and be in a band 'd' (or above) rated house for council tax. (In fact the Daily Torygraph a couple of years stated that you had to be earning over �47 000 a year to be paying more......sorry no link, believe me or not, your call)

Most of the 66 (or whatever the current propaganda is) 'stealth taxes' you tories whinge about are the regular year on year rises on things like booze, cigs, petrol and diesel fuels.

Income tax rates have not changed at all under this gov......oh, wait a minute, that's not true is it.....the rates of income tax in the UK have actually gone down! The 10% band has been significantly broadened, the allowances have gone up and the middle rate was reduced too.

As for local taxes? When the gov ups the allowances to local authorities and the authorities still insist on a big annual increase I suggest you take it up with the local authority.

.....and who's kidding who here? Do you think anyone in their right mind believes the local taxes would not have risen - at all - under the tory crowd or the indirect taxes year in year out!?

.....especially in view of the experience we did have with them at the time?!

The Labour party inherited a very strong economy from the Tories.

- This is simply not true.

Labour inherited an economy no longer in the very worst depths it was in at certain times under the tory party's management.

However the economy was suffering from their massives debts and debt growing at a record rate.

I also find this attitude hilarious.

Any bad, unimproved or not improved enough aspects of British affairs are all this gov's fault now cos they have been in 7.5yrs except for the economy where it's all still relatively great because of the old tory gov?!

Laughable in the extreme.

For the first couple of years Gordon Brown was committed to Tory spending plans. Since he has been released from those plans we have been running deficit upon deficit. Can you give a credible reason for that?

- Yes, it's called making the necessary investment into the UK's public services and economy.......or are you tories now implying you would not have invested in the disgustingly appalling public services your underinvestment had left us in 1997?

Again, talk about wanting it both ways.

In any event the short term current account debt (as opposed to the 'national debt') you find so terrible is (as a % of gov spending) pretty moderate, even if the figure itself seems relatively high (.....but money real terms and all that, you know?).

Pfft, great argument.

- That's not an arguement Chris, it's called a quip.

....and an extremely precise and telling one it is too, as far as the general public is concerned, though not, obviously, the tory zealot - but then given the detachment of your average troy where is the surprise there?

Labour demonstrate change and dynamicism whereas the tories revert to the past.

As you yourself make abundantly clear in your postings you still can't really understand why your crowd were so emphatically rejected and thrown out in 1997.

Just like you couldn't understand why 'Keep the pound' saw you lot trounced so totally in 2001.....

.....and just like how you will still be looking at everything but yourselves and your 'policies' for the reason why a 3rd serious battering is about to happen to you guys yet again in spring or summer next year.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Yeah, of course they all are.

Labour = More paper work
More paper work = Less time on the beat

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Do you mean the record level of gov debt which was also accellerating at a record rate?

And Gordon Brown isn't borrowing millions and millions!!!!

.....and who's kidding who here? Do you think anyone in their right mind believes the local taxes would not have risen - at all - under the tory crowd or the indirect taxes year in year out!?

Conservatives balance the book.
Labour borrows and taxs more to spend more.

So the odds of a similar Conservative increase in council tax would have been unlikely.

Yes, it's called making the necessary investment into the UK's public services and economy.......or are you tories now implying you would not have invested in the disgustingly appalling public services your underinvestment had left us in 1997?

Its all very well saying that we need to increase taxes to make a investment, but that also imply's that the tax will need to stay higher to continue the investment.


Also, do Governments really effect the economy that much, the Governments economic influence is proberly restricted to the homeland areas, but a economy is mainly effected by external influence, oil, terrorism, trading rivals etc




[edit on 6-12-2004 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
[Tell me, do you believe any old tory propaganda without the slightest bit of consideration or question?

The tories know the last thing they want to get into is the detail of what they actually mean about any of this cos the detail (if there is any, at all!) makes clear what shallow populist crud this 'idea' actually is.

I think you should consider a little just what paperwork the cops do complete when they have to now and what that is all about.....and that it has already been looked at several times to see what can be taken away.

No facts, no evidence, just the same old 'tory propaganda' cr@p and a poor attack on policy without any form of rational analysis.

Do you mean the record level of gov debt which was also accellerating at a record rate?
The debt that was eating up ever increasing numbers of billions of � just in 'dead' debt interest repayment and taking funds away which could have been spent on actual services/ pensions/investment, hmmm?

As far as the economy goes your guys had their go and screwed up royally - twice! - to claim this gov's much better running of the economy is all down to the troy 'legacy' is the height of dellusion.....as everyone but the tiny band of tory support knows (as will be proven for the 3rd landslide running come polling day in approx 6 months or so).

archive.treasury.gov.uk...

GDP grew at an annual rate of 2-2 1/2 per cent in the second half of 1995 and for much of 1996. But it accelerated sharply last autumn, since when it has been rising at an annualised rate of 3 1/2 -4 1/2 per cent, driven by strong consumer spending growth. Unemployment has continued to fall, and the rate of decline appears to have gathered pace since the autumn (although the fall in the claimant count has been amplified by the introduction of the Jobseeker's Allowance). Underlying retail price inflation (i.e. excluding mortgage interest payments) has fallen from around 3 per cent at the end of last year to 2.5per cent at present, reflecting the effects of sterling's appreciation.

Look, actual facts and economic data.

Tell you what then, matey, convince your party to stand on a platform of returning the poll tax.....and see how many tens of MPs you get returned at the next poll.

Nice way of avoiding the point.

Income tax rates have not changed at all under this gov......oh, wait a minute, that's not true is it.....the rates of income tax in the UK have actually gone down! The 10% band has been significantly broadened, the allowances have gone up and the middle rate was reduced too.

National insurance up 1p in the pound.

Taxes on everything (cigs, booze, houses) have contributed to the tax burden. Who suffers most from taxes on cigarettes, alcohol and petrol? The well-off? No.

Tax Freedom Day - the day when people stop working to pay taxes and instead start working for themselves - has moved from May 27 in 1997, the year the Tories lost power, to June 10 this year.

www.rip-off.co.uk...

You present no facts to back up your arguments, you attack anything which may prove you wrong as propaganda, you cynically avoid questions you have no answer to and when all that fails, you resort to childish baiting and name calling.

You should be a Labour MP.

Chris McGee out.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Labour = More paper work
More paper work = Less time on the beat

- Well that's the tory slogan and the myth......care to quantify that UK Wizard?

And Gordon Brown isn't borrowing millions and millions!!!!

- This gov's short term current account borrowing is relatively low actually.

Conservatives balance the book.
Labour borrows and taxs more to spend more.

- You obviously missed the bit about how the tories left office (yet again) with the national debt at an all time record high and that debt accellerating at a record rate......why do you think this gov felt it had no choice but to stick to the draconian spending plans it did stick to in the first 2yrs, hmmm?

So the odds of a similar Conservative increase in council tax would have been unlikely.

- UK Wizard I suggest you go anfd look at their council tax record rather than simply repeat a propaganda myth.
Council tax rose significantly under the tories.

As for idiotic and ignorant ideas about how 'cheap' the poll tax is imagined by some to have been try talking to someone who was living in one of countless areas where an individual's poll tax was almost identical to their old rates bill.
It might not have seemed so bad when the poll tax came in so the working person got a bill much as before....... and they then got an identical poll tax bill for their non-working partner.

Why the hell do you think there were riots and such a massive non-payment campaign?

You really seem to have no idea of the civil unrest the troies created throughout the UK - on several occassions! - or do you just prefer to ignore this fact?

Its all very well saying that we need to increase taxes to make a investment, but that also imply's that the tax will need to stay higher to continue the investment.

- Think of it this way - how many industries or businesses have you ever heard of that only ever cost the initial buying price?

Much of public spending is an on-going expense. Treating people on the NHS is never going to be a one-off cost is it?

.....and the investment must continue as - despite the clear and evident improvements - we have hardly reached the levels we wish yet. we still lag behind our European counterparts in many areas of healthcare. Why should our people make do with less?

Jayzuss are they really putting this stuff out?
Sorry, but this is just another characteristic of todays tory parties' 'thinking' it's a pure superficial, simplistic and deeply dumb notion and doesn't bear more than a few seconds examination.

Also, do Governments really effect the economy that much, the Governments economic influence is proberly restricted to the homeland areas, but a economy is mainly effected by external influence, oil, terrorism, trading rivals etc

- There is some truth in that UK Wizard but yes, government makes a massive difference. It is all about confidence and creating the conditions for a stable political and commercial business environment.
This gov has created and sustained confidence and a stable economy (the longest single run of constant year on year growth in 200yrs).

That's real people's lives. Real families. It might not be 'daddys yacht' for all (as if it ever could be) but it is a damned sight better for most than what has gone before, especially recently and especially compared to the recent record of the other lot.

Originally posted by Chris McGee
No facts, no evidence, just the same old 'tory propaganda' cr@p and a poor attack on policy without any form of rational analysis.

- What analysis Chris?
How could there be any? It's a bland election pledge nothing more. It's deliberately designed to be detail and analysis free for goodness sake!

Yes, very interesting cut and pastes there Chris. The fact remains that this gov has out-performed the couple of cherry picked 'very best' years you have bee able to quote on almost every measure.

......and your steering well clear of the debt point is noted.

Nice way of avoiding the point.

- No. It was cutting through the nonsense.
You must obviously have missed the outrage as people found their old rates bill being replavced by a slightly lower poll tax bill.......and then findiong out their non-working partner ot one too etc etc.

The only people who found the poll tax 'cheap' were those living alone or living in very expensive property.

(sorry, should I post up reams about the ins and outs of the poll tax and how it worked or is it ok to assume you too have some kind of actual experience and knowledge of it? )

Most didn't.....or did you miss the non-payment protest - the largest single national civil disobedience campaign this country had seen for several decades?

National insurance up 1p in the pound.

- Std rate of income tax down 1p too, remember, hmm? (should I cut and paste up a few paragraphs about this fact too.....or can you accept I';m telling the truth about this one )

Taxes on everything (cigs, booze, houses) have contributed to the tax burden.

- Yeah cos they wouldn't have gone up under a tory gov, right?

(should I cut and paste to prove this too?)

Who suffers most from taxes on cigarettes, alcohol and petrol? The well-off? No.

- ....and so what? It is egalitarian and right to let the poor smoke and drink themselves to death?

Tax Freedom Day - the day when people stop working to pay taxes and instead start working for themselves - has moved from May 27 in 1997, the year the Tories lost power, to June 10 this year.

- For whom? How was this 'one size fits all' average created?

I do not deny that taxes have risen a little - for those at the top especially but so what?

That was the conscious choice people made by electing this gov.
Most of the people could see the appalling state of the public services and knew repairing them to a decent standard would not be done for 'free'.

So, so what of you claims that some taxes have risen a little?

They have certainly not gone up by much for most.

You present no facts to back up your arguments, you attack anything which may prove you wrong as propaganda, you cynically avoid questions you have no answer to and when all that fails, you resort to childish baiting and name calling.

- No. I don't go in for that rather tedious and highly selective cut and pasting, I prefer not to lose myself in dubious nit-picking when the wider 'picture' is clear for all to see, I have stuck to the broad point and I call a spade a spade.......and as for avoiding questions what are tyyou doing by ignoring the point about the tory debt history hmm?

If you are soo fragile that you can't take a little leg pulling (but please feel free to actually say what has hurt you so, I'd be interested in what you see as "childish baiting and name calling", really) I suggest you toughen up a little.

I have been as calm, reasonable and mild as I usually am, even attempted to introduce a little humour into this but if I had known what a precious little delicate one you were......




[edit on 6-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

originally posted by sminkeypinkey
care to quantify that UK Wizard?

This gov's short term current account borrowing is relatively low actually

�37bn this year
�31bn next year (forecasted)
�27bn the year after (forecasted)

Considering he only got his forecast wrong by �11bn for this year, we can take those figures as gospel

UK Wizard I suggest you go anfd look at their council tax record rather than simply repeat a propaganda myth.

www.axethetax.org.uk...

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.epolitix.com...

and here's your comparison:

1997 2004/05
A �399.33 �783.45
B �465.89 �914.02
C �532.44 �1,044.59
E �732.11 �1,436.31
F �865.22 �1,697.45
G �998.33 �1,958.61
H �1,198.00 �2,350.32

Much of public spending is an on-going expense. Treating people on the NHS is never going to be a one-off cost is it?

I agree with you here, public services do need extra investment (yes, i know, it's probably our fault

) but it must be targeted in the right places. New equipment, new buildings, new infrastructure, more staff, better training. Not so train drivers can earn �35,000 per year for a 35 hour week (for example).

Std rate of income tax down 1p too, remember, hmm?

Yes, the level of direct taxation has remained relatively stable, but what about all the other tax increases, hmm?

It is egalitarian and right to let the poor smoke and drink themselves to death?

Now who's the melodramatic drama queen?

I don't think it's egalitarian to reserve smoking and drinking for those that can afford it, you plastic socialist.

.