Flu mutating 8 times faster than any flu virus known

reply to post by westcoast


Triple assortments now happen all the time in nature - blame industry and Monsanto if you want, but H5N1 ALREADY had genes from swine, bird and human flu BEFORE those scientists experimented with it. FYI - so does H1N1 swine flu.

Originally posted by soficrow
but H5N1 ALREADY had genes from swine, bird and human flu BEFORE those scientists experimented with it. FYI - so does H1N1 swine flu.

This not to do with "experimentation" but rather is because farmers in southeast Asia tend to keep swine and chickens (and sometimes cattle) in close proximity, allowing all sorts of bacteria, viruses, and parasites to be passed back and forth. If a virus, which is constantly mutating regardless of what we do to them, has thousands of "challenges" in a day (ie exposures to a new or unfamilair environment, that is, a chicken virus being exposed to a pig's immune system), eventually one will overcome the obstacle and be "selected" for.

Sorry if this is convoluted, and sorry if I missed your point. I just thought you were trying to say these viruses acquired these genes through human intervention.

reply to post by InternalMedDoc

Originally posted by soficrow
but H5N1 ALREADY had genes from swine, bird and human flu BEFORE those scientists experimented with it. FYI - so does H1N1 swine flu.

This not to do with "experimentation" but rather is because farmers in southeast Asia tend to keep swine and chickens (and sometimes cattle) in close proximity, allowing all sorts of bacteria, viruses, and parasites to be passed back and forth. If a virus, which is constantly mutating regardless of what we do to them, has thousands of "challenges" in a day (ie exposures to a new or unfamilair environment, that is, a chicken virus being exposed to a pig's immune system), eventually one will overcome the obstacle and be "selected" for.

Sorry if this is convoluted, and sorry if I missed your point. I just thought you were trying to say these viruses acquired these genes through human intervention.

FYI - Triple assortment H7N9 "bird flu" was first isolated on a turkey farm in 1988 in Minnesota (USA), then spread in domestic poultry (trade) and wild birds (migrations). The first known H7N9 human infections reported in China at the end of March, 2013. Similarly, H1N1 "swine flu" was first identified on an industrial farm in Wisconsin farm in 1998.
Point being: The main "environmental exposures" creating new diseases occur on industrial farms with over- crowding, over-medication and etc.

My post was a response to knives4eyes' mistaken claim that (Dutch virologist Ron Fourchier) added swine genes to a bird flu virus (he didn't), and
westcoast's suggestion that the virus might have been purposely engineered that way and then got back out.

I have stated in other posts that if it was engineered, H7N9 appears to have been designed to cull the "useless eaters" (mainly sick and elderly males) - unlike H5N1 and H1N1, which kill the young and healthy - and to destroy China's mom-and-pop farming industry to make way for global industrial agricultural corporations. But that's a different discussion.

reply to post by soficrow


True, those are the locations they were first isolated from, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was their origin.

But, yes, it seems I misunderstood the reason for your post, so apologies!

reply to post by InternalMedDoc




So even though the first triple assortment bird/swine/human flu strains were first found in the USA in factory farms where animals are over-crowded, over-medicated, turned into cannibals and fed Frankenfoods, you just don't think such radical environmental modifications have any significant effect in creating new diseases? And China's the boogeyman?

reply to post by soficrow


No, I don't think the virus originated in America, considering the only known cases are in southeast Asia and China. Smallpox was first isolated as a causative agent of the disease in England. Do you think that's where the virus originated, despite millenia of cases around the world?

reply to post by InternalMedDoc


If you're interested in scientific evidence, check out the "family tree" in the Eurosurveillance pdf - page 3 for the HA gene and page for for the NA gene. You will see that different gene segments come from around the world. The H7N9 flu strain is currently broken down into 3 "clades" - North America, South America, and Eurasia. The Eurasian clade is causing China's outbreak, but is related to the clades from North America and South America (same strain). You will also see that the triple assortments of swine/bird/human flu viruses first occurred in factory farms.

Genetic analysis of novel avian A(H7N9) influenza viruses isolated from patients in China, February to April 2013

....The HA clade names, North America, South America, and Eurasia, are based on epidemiological studies of H7 viruses [27,28].

reply to post by soficrow


From the article you just posted:

he HA gene of the novel viruses
belongs to the Eurasian lineage of avian influenza
viruses and shares ca. 95% identity with the HA genes
of low pathogenic avian influenza A(H7N3) viruses iso
-
lated in 2011 in Zhejiang province (south of Shanghai)
(Figure 1, Table 2). The NA gene of the novel viruses is
ca. 96% identical to the low pathogenic avian influenza
A(H11N9) viruses isolated in 2010 in the Czech Republic
(Figure 1, Table 2).

There is no mention of factory farms in the study, nor do they draw a phylogenetic linkage between the novel viruses we're seeing in China and the H7N9 strains of North or South America.

reply to post by InternalMedDoc


Of course no one admits factory farms accelerate microbial evolution - the spin is all designed to protect global agri-industry and trade - and no one wants to lose their commercial sponsors. ...But just track the clades identified in H7N9's family tree and you will see which ones come from factory farms.

RE: H7N9 Evolution.

Silent spread

…A May 1 paper in The Lancet clearly brings out the complexity of H7N9’s origin. According to the study, the virus has originated from “multiple reassortment events” and might have evolved from “at least four origins” involving migratory birds and poultry, and has evolved to at least “two different lineages.”

Understanding Viral Evolution and Spread

1. Everywhere is connected to everywhere else via trade, travel and wind - often with fewer than 6 degrees of separation - poultry is a trade item, shipped live around the world, along with viruses; wild birds migrate, carrying viruses; people travel too with their own viruses; wind blows viruses around the world.

2. The H7N9 Eurasian, North American and South American clades are waayyy closer in evolutionary terms than chimps and humans who share 99% of DNA, for example.

Some basic info on taxonomy and evolution that might help you understand H7N9's family tree diagrams on pages 3 & 4:

Family (biology)
Evolutionary taxonomy

reply to post by soficrow


There's absolutely no reason for you to be so rude and condescending in your replies, Soficrow. I'm trying to have a scholarly discussion with you, so your statements implying you are "hand-holding" me through virology come off as cheap and desperate.

That being said, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You're taking statements from some of your sources and applying them out of context. For example, when the state that the virus likely has up to four originations, at no point do they state that any of these are outside Asia. In the phylogenetic tree of H7N9, there are dozens of very, very closely related viruses all within eastern China alone.

And of course the viruses are more closely related than chimps and humans. They are different strains of the same organism (though, arguably, viruses aren't truly 'organisms'). Chimps and humans are completely different species that branched off from each other millenia ago.

Also, what evidence do you have that factory farms play any role in this particular virus at all? All you've shown so far is...well, nothing. You just keep making veiled references, stating that "of course no one reports on it" or "of course they don't want to tell you"...but you have no science to support your claim. Put up, or shut up, as they say.

reply to post by InternalMedDoc

There's absolutely no reason for you to be so rude and condescending in your replies ...I'm trying to have a scholarly discussion with you
….you have no science to support your claim. Put up, or shut up, as they say.

Back atcha. Find another sucker, this one doesn't bite. Good luck with your project. And try to remember that old adage when you cast your lines, "You catch more flies with honey ... "

reply to post by soficrow


When did asking you for your science that backs up your claim become condescending?

The Bird Flu has been created by the World Governments and is being distributed via (flu shots) under the direction of the WHO!....The plan is to cut the world population bu the billions!....The world's elite fear the masses and want to eliminate the threat to their position!....This Bird Flu will be the Mother of Flu's!....Basically a mass murder event!...