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Originally posted by studythem1
so its not a case of which religion is correct...it is a case of what morality is correct...what least violates free will of the individual without violating another's free will...that is the question...and it was best answered by the minds that contributed to the ideas of the American revolution, and the ideas of personal sovereignty...and that is not a religion, it is a morality, and many of these men who promoted it had moral compass without the organized religions that were all around them...
Originally posted by wildtimes
I think he is suggesting that RELIGION is evil, not "the Christian God." The people who dreamed up all the accoutrements and the personality of said "God," simply to scare and control people.
Originally posted by wildtimes
Your analogy of Pol Pot, Japan, and all that was due to "lack of religion" is like making the analogy that "all people in county X who are imprisoned for murder ate french fries, therefore eating french fries causes a person to murder." It's a false correlation. ATHEISM has nothing to do with VIOLENCE.
Originally posted by honested3
reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum
Your assumptions are incorrect, many founders of today's sciences were Christians themselves, I am sure you understand this already and that is a topic of another debate, my point being to say Christians are backwards thinking and anti progressive is mostly accurate but not completely.
Any other questions I will help to answer.
Originally posted by Xtrozero
Its called motivation and nationalism, socialism, communism etc do not have moral foundations. Something WILL be a motivating factor no matter what. That is how we are, we can not stop it. Morality is learned anyway you look at it. I don't care how it is learn it is the only way we get it, but humans are not typically moral and tend to fight it all the time, and when we get into groups it really can go astray.
The prevailing scholarly view since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust
Can you tell me what atheist path teaches morality in a way that a person has total convictions to follow it.
I'm sure you disagree, but I would say if you put 100 people in a situation 95 would screw the others over to get ahead...its our instinct...
Originally posted by studythem1
so what am i trying to say exactly? well lets get a few things out of the way. no i am not an athiest, i just do not believe that the hebrew bible is a true and honest depiction of the creator. and i also have a background in theology and the antiquities, so i have been doing this research for a while. some of it i did for a thesis at a religious school, and i was told to either change my paper, or face severe reprecussions, so i left...and this was one of the many things that actually proved to me that this particular religious and theological school was no good, and that religion is anything but a friend of free thought and speech...
Morality is learned anyway you look at it.
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7
I am objecting to your assumption that religion does not make people good, they are good by themselves and religion just takes the credit.
It's not an "assumption", logical7, it's a FACT.
Where do Morals Come From?
Being nice to others and cooperating with them aren't uniquely human traits. Frans de Waal, director of Emory University's Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Lawrenceville, Georgia, studies how our close primate relatives also demonstrate behaviors suggestive of a sense of morality.
De Waal recently published a book called The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates which synthesizes evidence that there are biological roots in human fairness, and explores what that means for the role of religion in human societies. CNN's Kelly Murray recently spoke with De Waal about the book.
read this article on CNN's light-years blog for an interview with De Waal.
The book's summary says:
In this lively and illuminating discussion of his landmark research, esteemed primatologist Frans de Waal argues that human morality is not imposed from above but instead comes from within. Moral behavior does not begin and end with religion but is in fact a product of evolution.
This is another one:
The Neurobiology of Criminal Behavior
The main feature of this work is that it explores criminal behavior from all aspects of Tinbergen's Four Questions. Rather than focusing on a single theoretical point of view, this book examines the neurobiology of crime from a biosocial perspective.
It suggests that it is necessary to understand some genetics and neuroscience in order to appreciate and apply relevant concepts to criminological issues. Presenting up-to-date information on the circuitry of the brain, the authors explore and examine a variety of characteristics, traits and behavioral syndromes related to criminal behavior such as ADHD, intelligence, gender, the age-crime curve, schizophrenia, psychopathy, violence and substance abuse.
This book brings together the sociological tradition with the latest knowledge the neurosciences have to offer and conveys biological information in an accessible and understanding way. It will be of interest to scholars in the field and to professional criminologists.
This one is from YESTERDAY on npr.org:
Criminologist Believes Violent Behavior Is Biological
Adrian Raine was the first person to conduct a brain imaging study on murderers and has since continued to study the brains of violent criminals and psychopaths. His research has convinced him that while there is a social and environmental element to violent behavior, there's another side of the coin, and that side is biology.
"Just as there's a biological basis for schizophrenia and anxiety disorders and depression I'm saying here there's a biological basis also to recidivistic violent offending," Raine, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania and author of the new book The Anatomy of Violence: The Biological Roots of Crime tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross.
Raine says that this re-visioning of violent criminals could potentially help direct how we approach crime prevention and rehabilitation.
And the book highlighted above has this 'description' of its premise:
A leading criminologist who specializes in the neurological and biosocial bases of antisocial and violent behavior draws on a wide range of new scientific research to explain how brain impairments that control the experiences of fear, decision-making and empathy can render people more likely to engage in criminal activity.
THIS IS SCIENCE. IT IS being PROVEN that people - and some animals - are "wired" for moral behavior or immoral behavior. "Religion" and "fear of hell" may stop some people from acting immorally, but religion does not CAUSE them to act morally.
If you look at the link, you will see the well known (yet politically incorrect) fact that religious observance in modern societies has a direct negative correlation. Things like unwanted/ teenage pregnancy, divorce, incarceration, general peace/tolerance, exploitation, wealth disparity, prevalence of STD's and many other indicators of societal dysfunction, seem to rise directly commensurate with religiosity. Which seems to explode the argument about religion and morals, as complete unfounded myth.
So my point was not so much about whether any particular Christian founded, or help found any branch of science, neither was it a necessarily an assumption (it has a lot of documented history to back it, was also followed by a question mark). It was "has there been a more ignorant, bigoted, repressive, tyrannical, anti-knowledge, anti-intellectual cult that has had a more negative effect within the last couple of millennia, than Christianity?"
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
And I think that's the question I want answered most - why are we so obsessed with being untouchable? I think if we explore the mysteries surrounding that particular vice, we may finally be able to let go of gods and embrace the universe within us, as well as the "us" within the universe. We will have an ascending relationship, instead of a serving relationship...a process of equalization rather than subjugation. Should that day come, I will relish it.edit on 2-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)
For what purpose do we embrace the universe within us? We cant live forever, and if your not living for something then your dying for nothing. Thats the question I want answered, is why so much focus on this life, on this existence and on this physical realm? Were bound in flesh and we die in flesh, we can never get along. Even in your own life if you took an honest examination of yourself, and found the things you really cant stand, the people or person you cannot stand, could you ever get past that? The notion that human kind can one day "get along" and be selfess and care about others moreso than themselves is so impossible that I have much better chances believing in an invisible God. I truly dont mean to stampede all over your belief system, but I feel like anybody who believes that human kind has it within themselves to 'ascend' or to think in terms of others is rudely mistaken. I mean I am sure there are some out there but its definitely not the common denominator.
For what purpose do we embrace the universe within us? We cant live forever, and if your not living for something then your dying for nothing. Thats the question I want answered, is why so much focus on this life, on this existence and on this physical realm?
Just as I hope you elaborate for me, I will elaborate for you on my belief. No i absolutely do not feel or believe I am serving God just to get something from Him, I dont feel or believe that my relationship with God is dependent on how many good works I do or how 'holy' I am or how many times I attend church, its just not a slavery/servant process. I serve because I love Him and I see what He has forgiven me for, what nobody else could forgive.
I know you have heard all of this before countless times, but the older I get, the more I realize that deep down I am selfish, I am hateful, I am just plain evil and there is no way I could ever get beyond that without a divine being forgiving me.
I wont lie to you though alot of religions out there and alot of Christians out there do see it as a process of subjugation, and they are mistaken, and its truly sad for them because inside there is nothing there except rules. Religion is the enemy of God, religion is mankind trying to 'earn' God.
Religion is the enemy of God, religion is mankind trying to 'earn' God.
So no there is no obsession about being untouchable, at least not for me, I dont have some deep desire to be God and to live forever and to serve some invisible being so that someday I can be 'better' than everyone, many believe this but not me. I think the mystery surrounding that vice as you said, is that people deep down want to be perfect by earning it, they want to make themselves better through their own doing, not someone elses.
How hard is it for a proud person to accept something they didn't earn? very heard. So if you really want to understand something mind blowing, look deep within yourself, dont kid yourself, and see who you are deep inside, you will an imperfect person there, no better than the worse criminal, thats what I found in myself, and then when you realize your forgiven for that, and invited into heaven [not earned] even after that, you would want to serve out of love, not subjugation.
Thats why I feel like everything in this world, it is important yes, but its not forever, its very liberating knowing this planet, this physical body, everything, is eventually going to disappear and I will be with God. Maybe thats stupid to you, maybe it seems illogical, maybe its is completely 100% off topic from your post, but I hope you elaborate on it and search within.