DHS using 1000 more rounds per person than the U.S. Army.

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posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:05 AM
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Reps challenge DHS ammo buys, say agency using 1,000 more rounds per person than Army



I was wondering when we were going to hear something about this more than just a confirmation that it was true and was hoping somebody would look into it as there really is no rational explanation for it. I have heard the argument about saving money over the 5 year term by buying mass quantities but I reject that as complete desperation to explain shocking amounts of ammunition that honestly shouldn't have been purchased.


Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz said Thursday that the Department of Homeland Security is using roughly 1,000 rounds of ammunition more per person than the U.S. Army, as he and other lawmakers sharply questioned DHS officials on their "massive" bullet buys.


Somebody has too because the DHS sure doesn't feel like it has to explain itself to the American public but hey, I guess that's what Congressmen are for!


Democratic Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., at the opening of the hearing, ridiculed the concerns as "conspiracy theories" which have "no place" in the committee room.


I call the purchasing of the biggest order of ammunition ever placed by the federal government in the history of the country during peace time........ Conspiracy fact, not theory. Add too that the agency buying it has no predefined role outside of clandestine intelligence gathering and only operates domestically inside of the United States.


Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.


So, liberal Representatives don't see anything strange about that fact? I have to say that I am a little perplexed by their suggestion that this is not odd.


"This is not about conspiracy theories, this is about good government," Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said.


Well, that I can actually agree with.
edit on 26-4-2013 by Helious because: (no reason given)


SOURCE
ed it on 26-4-2013 by Helious because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:07 AM
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DHS agents and officers need extensive training because they are "exposed to a variety of situations" and "only have that weapon to protect their lives," Medina said. "They can't contact air support [like an officer in an army could.] They have to be proficient at a very high level."


www.usnews.com...


The response was well they can't call in airstrikes, does that mean yet?
edit on 26-4-2013 by Covertblack because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by Helious
 


I call BS!

I had this argument on facebook.

And luckily enough had a friend who was actually deployed to the Stan while he was in the Army.
We asked him how many bullets he thinks he fired in a year on average.
He said roughly 50K rounds. Not including rounds fired in barracks(He thinks about 30K).

So lets do the Math.

If a soldier on average fires 50K rounds a year.



SQUAD = Nine to 10 soldiers

PLATOON = 16 to 44 soldiers

COMPANY = 62 to 190 soldiers

BATTALION = 300 to 1,000 soldiers

BRIGADE = 3,000 to 5,000 soldiers

DIVISION = 10,000 to 15,000 soldiers.

CORPS = 20,000 to 45,000 soldiers

ARMY = 50,000+ soldiers.


So if there's about 3-4 brigades deployed in Afghanistan. That's at least 30K troops.
That would be somewhere in the area of 1,500,000,000+/- rounds fired per year for the Army.

Now how many rounds is the DHS using per person?
edit on 26-4-2013 by grey580 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by grey580
 


The only problem with your calling BS is that if those numbers were off, even by a marginal amount, the DHS would have immediately pointed that out and very loudly I might add.

I am more inclined to believe the absence of argument from the DHS and the Congressional statistics over your Facebook friend who was guesstimating how many rounds he fires off per year.

Just saying..... Besides, your talking about an active duty person in a War Zone, the DHS is not only not at war, they don't even operate outside of the United States.
edit on 26-4-2013 by Helious because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by grey580
reply to post by Helious
 


I call BS!

I had this argument on facebook.

And luckily enough had a friend who was actually deployed to the Stan while he was in the Army.
We asked him how many bullets he thinks he fired in a year on average.
He said roughly 50K rounds. Not including rounds fired in barracks(He thinks about 30K).

So lets do the Math.

If a soldier on average fires 50K rounds a year.



SQUAD = Nine to 10 soldiers

PLATOON = 16 to 44 soldiers

COMPANY = 62 to 190 soldiers

BATTALION = 300 to 1,000 soldiers

BRIGADE = 3,000 to 5,000 soldiers

DIVISION = 10,000 to 15,000 soldiers.

CORPS = 20,000 to 45,000 soldiers

ARMY = 50,000+ soldiers.


So if there's about 3-4 brigades deployed in Afghanistan. That's at least 30K troops.
That would be somewhere in the area of 1,500,000,000+/- rounds fired per year for the Army.

Now how many rounds is the DHS using per person?
edit on 26-4-2013 by grey580 because: (no reason given)


your friend said 50K rounds! um so did he change out his barrels at a minimum of 5 times a year?

50k rounds a year is 136 rounds a day.

A solder, rifleman, will carry 180 to 270 rounds on himself at a time. so hes firing nearly all his rounds on his persons daily? He's in a battle for his life daily then. i doubt that.

Unless your friend is carrying a SAW, squad automatic weapon, then maybe, but I doubt he is blowing through 50k rounds a year.
edit on 26-4-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-4-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by Helious
 


We certainly don't have to rely on my friend.
We have plenty of ATS friends on here who were ex military.
And we can ask them approximate rounds fired.

We can do our own math and figure out a number.
And not have to rely on any figures the government puts out.



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:26 AM
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Not in the military, but was wondering if you guys could answer this. Do some in the military shoot more rounds for practice, say a guy carrying a LMG compared to one with an m4?



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I'll ask the question.
I'll let ya know



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by grey580
reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I'll ask the question.
I'll let ya know


In your defense, I did read the original statement put out by the senator. He stated the DHS had 1,000 rounds more than the average “OFFICER”. A rifleman and an “officer” are going to shoot a considerably different amount of ammo between the two. Obviously the officer will be shooting less in the field depending on rank.

Nice play of words if you ask me.

The senators website has crashed, otherwise i would link you to the original statement.
edit on 26-4-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:37 AM
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I think the numbers are probably right if that's the number of rounds a soldier uses in training, for their personal weapon. A non-combat arms soldier who is not deployed to a warzone probably uses much less than 350 per year. Two bi-annual qualifications with about sixty rounds (40 rounds for qualification another 6-20 for the zeroing that you do before qualification), 40 for night fire, and 40 for NBC fire. (60x2)+40+40=200 I could see the extra rounds that combat arms and MP's use for additional live fire training getting it to the 350 average per soldier army wide.

It doesn't take someone conspiracy minded to wonder why DHS is stockpiling so many rounds. I was active duty in the Army in the mid nineties in a Combat Arms Branch (but not Infantry, who would shoot much more) and we probably shot 500 or so rounds per person throughout the year in training and qualification with individual weapons.

It's much harder to guestimate how many rounds would be used individually for the crew served weapons though.
edit on 26-4-2013 by jefwane because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 10:39 AM
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I'll say this, when DHS is training people the number of rounds is in the hundreds, to thousands, of rounds used. Depending upon the agency. That said I would think that new hires make up a small percentage of the total number of employees.

Let's say each agency requires their employees to monthly requals. So you figure a high number around 40-50 bullets a month, roughly. That's 600 rounds a year at most.
edit on 26-4-2013 by Covertblack because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-4-2013 by Covertblack because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by Covertblack
 



Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Mark Twain's


The question is how many bullets were delivered to DHS vs how many were ordered.
I've seen the RFP's in question and it's an up to x amount contract vs an x amount contract per year.
So we really don't have an exact value.

I don't trust the government. However I wonder if we aren't making a mountain out of a molehill on this.
And whenever I hear a politician talking about numbers I automatically assume he's lying for political gain.
So I don't know if we can believe that 1,000 more rounds per person than the US Army.
Because if you're in combat you're shooting alot vs someone with a desk job.
What we need to do is identify the 1,000 more number he's thinking and go from there.



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by Helious
 



Democratic Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., at the opening of the hearing, ridiculed the concerns as "conspiracy theories" which have "no place" in the committee room.


Good job bumpkin. Conspiracy theory is conjecture without facts or with miniscule evidence.



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 12:14 PM
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I'm willing to bet a lot of that ammo ordered goes to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and it's subordinate training centers...

www.fletc.gov...



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by bg_socalif
I'm willing to bet a lot of that ammo ordered goes to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and it's subordinate training centers...

www.fletc.gov...



Ahhhh beautiful Glynco, GA...............



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 12:30 PM
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The people who join the army are better shots.....They don't need as many bullets to hit something.

Well, at least I tried to think of an explanation.



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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Given what we saw in Boston now we know why DHS has been buying so much ammo, and those armored vehicles.

DHS needs to spend "less time at the range", and more time actually watching "terrorists" on those watch lists.



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by bg_socalif
I'm willing to bet a lot of that ammo ordered goes to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and it's subordinate training centers...

www.fletc.gov...



Law enforcement doesn't train with hollow points.



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 12:55 PM
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Naturally dependant on nation

Yearly marksmanship assessments first have a number of build up shoots

Rifle

Zeroing 25 rounds

A sighting practice for various possitions, standing, kneeling, sitting, trench ) already fired prone on the zero shoot
40-60 rounds


A build up shoot, similar to the assessment
130 rounds

And the assessment
130 rounds

That's 355 rounds to qualify INFANTRY yearly
This is the very minimum amount
THIS IS JUST TO QUALIFY

Not incorporating the many wide and varied live fire exercises and training packages

Pistol

20 rounds zero/point of aim( poa ) shoot

40 round poa shoot at different ranges

60 pre assessment
60 assessment

Again this is for infantry just to qualify on the pistol

LMG ( the lady/m249/minimi )
25 rounds zero/poa shoot

80 rounds poa shoot at different ranges

180 rounds pre assessment
180 rounds assessment

He general ( m240/GPMG )

Same as the lady

As I said these are the minimum requirements for infantry just to qualify on that weapon system
With a few exceptions where some units will just zero and go straight into the assessment shoot or straight to assesment ( sf types with plenty of trigger time )

Non combat infantry will shoot even less live ammunition
In fact I still encounter some that have not fired a live round in a decade due to computer based simulator ranges



edit on 26-4-2013 by Neocrusader because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2013 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by bg_socalif
I'm willing to bet a lot of that ammo ordered goes to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and it's subordinate training centers...

www.fletc.gov...



Law enforcement doesn't train with hollow points.


I can attest that some agencies do in fact train with hollow points.





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