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Do Parents Have the Right To Refuse Medical Treatment for Faith Healing?

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posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by chiefsmom
 


I think(i do use the important vaccines) the difference is that, Vaccine is possible prevention while, treatment is well, treatment.




posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by buster2010
Yes parents have that right to make that decision. As sad as it may be it is the parents right to do what is best for that child and if prayer is their choice then that's final. It isn't the governments place to tell someone their religion is wrong.

Buster you often have some awesome points, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this. I mean, where does it stop?

Sorry your honor, instead of putting pressure on the wound I thought the best thing would be to pray? Sorry your honor, I didn't call the ambulance, because it's against my religion?

There are religions I wouldn't endorse which have practices for the 'good' of their children that I wouldn't endorse, and this is treading dangerously close to that line. At what point is a superstitious belief so ludicrous that we can say, 'that person is a bit crazy' or at very least uneducated to the point that a poor child will suffer or die.

Would I get away with the same or similar answers if I was mentally ill? I'm fairly certain if stated in court that I didn't take my child to hospital because I thought the cancer would just go away with magic, that I was depressed that day, or that I was busy rearranging my Xena Warrior Princess dvds, I wouldn't be treated with the same leniency.

Its just my current thoughts and feelings, but I'd have to do more research.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by chiefsmom
Can I ask a question about this?
How is this different than all the people choosing not to immunize their children? (besides the religion, I get that)
If your child gets a disease, that could have been prevented from having it, should you go to jail? Is that child abuse?


Personally, I think not. And as sad as this story is, and as mad as I am at the parents, and the poor babies needless suffering, it is their choice.


And this is where I think the slippery slope could lead, and why I'm so torn. Although vaccinations are preventative, and treating a known illness is somewhat different.

This is something I'm really struggling with. Thanks for the reply.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by smyleegrl
 


A pundit on MSNBC claimed that society has a legitimate and superior claim of ownership on people's kids. Of course this is news to some ignoramuses but that's the way our laws have been set up for a long time. Basically, kids don't have the legal right of self-determination, so if the parents hurt them, then the collective steps in.

I believe most conservatives and/or Christians would say they actually own their kids. The Taliban feel strongly that they own their kids. They can even kill them for their own good.

For me it boils down to "the good" of the adult parent in opposition to "the good" of the child. The (broadly interpreted) "good of the child" should be superior because kids are morally superior to adults. "Broadly interpreted" means it's not perfect but it's net-positive so you deal with it.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by buster2010
Yes parents have that right to make that decision. As sad as it may be it is the parents right to do what is best for that child and if prayer is their choice then that's final. It isn't the governments place to tell someone their religion is wrong.


This is by far the best statement that I have seen in this thread, and I agree completely.

Only one of two things can happen by leaving them alone, and to their faith:

1. The community of faith healers becomes stronger as faith healing is proven by the number of their survivors to actually work.

or

2. The community of faith healers becomes weaker as their numbers dwindle because the faith healing does not work and the followers either die or abandon the belief.

For those who are crying "child abuse" or "neglect" I really feel sorry for you because, in my opinion, you aren't seeing the greater picture, and that is the ability to have a choice. By advocating that some sort of social service or other government agency should have the ability, and the duty to step in and force a parent into doing something that they would not otherwise have chosen is no less a crime, and in from my viewpoint, a greater crime. By advocating this mindset, you are giving up your ability to make choices for yourself, as well as your children. Remember, it starts with small things, in a small group of people and the snowball of control will run downhill gathering momentum and velocity until it is so great it overpowers you and you have no choice but to fall beneath it.

As a "modern" and "industrialized" nation, we have moved away from the "village" mentality and in doing so have limited, if not outright eliminated our support systems, available resources and knowledge and replaced them with reliance on government entities to dictate to us because resources and knowledge have been put into the hands of a select few. Essentially we have willingly put a noose around our neck and because of events like this, we are calling for our captors to tighten that noose.

Is the only solution to bully them into acting contrary to their faith because if they don't they will be punished, we will imprison them or steal their children?

What purpose does that serve?

By doing this aren't we essentially paving the path and giving permission for another religious entity that has more money, power, greater numbers or greater control over those who make our laws to do the same to us because their view of what we choose to believe is barbaric?

Aren't we paving the path for our government to dictate our faith or whether or not we are deemed "fit" to survive? (If you haven't seen the movie Gattica you should)

Aren't we in fact promoting the ideals of a one world religion and a one world government?

The government should have no place in punishing these people because of a choice made due to their faith, or in dictating and forcing compliance into what is considered "acceptable practice" by those to whom we have given all the power and knowledge. Yes, their choice resulted in the death of their child, isn't that punishment enough?

People need to get over the savior mentality. I know it sounds cruel, but it is in fact how humanity has made it this far.

Let the strong survive, leave the weak to die in peace if they (or their children as the case may be) choose to do so.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by rickymouse
Prayer works with people if they are old enough. It causes a change in brain chemistry that starts the brain healing. This is also evident in meditation.

I do not think a small baby can heal itself by faith because it does not understand faith yet


Wow.. I've read some pretty ignorant crap on ATS the past few weeks, but I have to say that one takes the cake.

That is the most absurd stupid and ignorant thing I've heard anyone say, with a straight face.

Seriously.

A baby cant heal itself with prayer because it doesn't yet understand faith.

Jesus... christ.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:50 AM
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I don't know if someone else has already posted this parable, as I have only read the first page, and felt compelled to go ahead and post.


God Will Save Me

A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the _ “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”


God sent these parents a message and a warning when they lost their first child. God sent them doctors, medical aid, child protective services. etc.

EDIT:
Story already posted here: www.abovetopsecret.com... by Intrptr. But I'm leaving it because it sooooo fits the argument! BUMP!


edit on 25-4-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:52 AM
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This is interesting.

A different question might be do their children have right to medical treatment regardless of their parents faith?

If you believe that prayer heals a broken bone, that's great. But I don't think that you have the right to inflict yourself on a child with a broken bone.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:52 AM
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When will people learn that praying will do NOTHING to save you!!

I can't stand these kinds of people. They basically let their child suffer and DIE because they are so brainwashed in thinking that praying to some guy on a fluffy cloud in the sky will save their child vs medical treatment. It's stupid and sad.

They should be put in jail for life! They killed both their kids for no reason. If they really truly loved their child they would have sought professional treatment but they are so brainwashed it didn't matter. You would think that after their last child died they'd learn a lesson....Religion is dangerous!



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by windword
 


Haha i heard a similar one.

Its about a faithful guy who wanted to win the lottery....



In the end, in heaven god says "i tried to make you win one, but man, you could have helped and bought a ticket!"



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by winofiend
 


No, a baby probably cannot heal itself with meditation or prayer because it's immune system, which includes a big section of the mind, is not completely formed yet.

Belief shall make you whole.....Belief is something that can stimulate the body to fight. There is a lot of proof of this out there. There is an old saying "The mind controls the body, the body does not control the mind"....but there are exceptions even to that. If an organ does not do it's job detoxing the body, the mind gets poisoned and when the mind gets poisoned it cannot control the body.. It's all actually very simple to understand.

If you believe you are going to get better, chances are you will. How many people think that the doctors cured them by going to see them when in fact, the doctor did nothing other than reinforce their belief that they will get better.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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Perhaps we need to look at this from a different perspective.

So if not paying cash to a "doctor" to try and treat a baby is abuse, what happens when you don't have the money?

Now i suppose one could argue that with the ACA being passed this should now be a non-issue. But if you've even been to the hospital you know just how little insurance can help (especially if your out of pocket maximum is over $5,000). You'll end up getting somewhere around 7+ bills from various people/centers.

In all honesty, it's their baby, so it's their call; until the baby is old enough to care and pay for it's own food and shelter.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by rickymouse
 


Respectfully, surely that is " Positive thinking " not " Faith healing ( ? ).



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 01:40 PM
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The parents absolutely positively have the right to be the last voice in the medical care of their child. No question.

The parents also have the responsibility to provide the best available care for their child. No excuses.

The parents absolutely positively can be held legally liable for the death and or injury of their child.

Put them on trial and send them to prison for manslaughter like any other murderer.

One of the world's basic truths is that if you assume authority you also assume responsibility.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 01:47 PM
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Not my chair not my problem!



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 01:51 PM
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God isn't your magical problem solver. You get your child medical treatment and THEN pray for him, otherwise you deserve to go to prison for a long, long time.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by ThreeSistersofLoveandLigh
and that is the ability to have a choice.


And please tell me the choice of the individual who died?


As a "modern" and "industrialized" nation, we have moved away from the "village" mentality and in doing so have limited, if not outright eliminated our support systems, available resources and knowledge and replaced them with reliance on government entities to dictate to us because resources and knowledge have been put into the hands of a select few. Essentially we have willingly put a noose around our neck and because of events like this, we are calling for our captors to tighten that noose.


We have not moved away from the 'village' mentality at all. We just rely on laws to enforce the common consensus (albeit, not always perfectly). We, as a society, have decided that letting children die when they could have been saved is just plain wrong. We also as a society say pedophilia is wrong. Laws that are there to protect children who cannot speak for themselves is because we, as a society or 'village' have said this is what is right.

{quote]Is the only solution to bully them into acting contrary to their faith because if they don't they will be punished, we will imprison them or steal their children?

Tell me, what was the faith of the child? What you have is people forcing their beliefs on a weaker individual to that individuals detriment. A child died because of their direct choice.


What purpose does that serve?


A defenseless child living a full, happy and productive life?


By doing this aren't we essentially paving the path and giving permission for another religious entity that has more money, power, greater numbers or greater control over those who make our laws to do the same to us because their view of what we choose to believe is barbaric?


It is not the church that makes the laws, it is society. It is you and I. It is the common voice that says murder, assault, theft, etc. is wrong despite religious leanings. Even the worlds largest christian religion is under fire for the inappropriate actions by some of it's members. And besides, most of the doctrines of religion are just basic common sense.


Aren't we paving the path for our government to dictate our faith or whether or not we are deemed "fit" to survive? (If you haven't seen the movie Gattica you should)


If a faith condones and participates in activities that go against the laws of the society in which it operates, who is wrong? The church or the society as a whole?


Aren't we in fact promoting the ideals of a one world religion and a one world government?


That escalated quickly.


The government should have no place in punishing these people because of a choice made due to their faith, or in dictating and forcing compliance into what is considered "acceptable practice" by those to whom we have given all the power and knowledge. Yes, their choice resulted in the death of their child, isn't that punishment enough?


Obviously it wasn't punishment enough as this was the second time it happened. Shall we go for a third? A fourth? How many deaths shall we let be at the hands of these individuals? Tell what number of babies deaths do you feel comfortable with?


Let the strong survive, leave the weak to die in peace if they (or their children as the case may be) choose to do so.


And that is the most barbaric thing I have heard all day.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 03:49 PM
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This thread come just after I watched this evening a documentary about parents who refuse chemotherapy for their kids, in favor of an alternative treatment, and how the state took those children away and force-treated them with chemo and radiation. It broke my heart.

A parent is a parent. When a kid is obviously abused and suffer, we interfere and save that child. But most of the time the parents want the best for their kids, and not always that fits into society's idea of best.

I refused to vaccinate my kids; they are almost grown up now and never had a health problem. Should the state go against my best judgement for my kids and vaccinate them by force? Can the authorities guarantee 100% success of their treatments, is the conventional medicine 100% effective in saving lives? No. So they have the right to not succeed, to lose lives, and then shrug away and say :"we did the best we could", but a parent doesn't have this right?

The case presented in the OP is obviously about gross ignorance from the parents side, since a simple treatment could have saved both kids. But you can't rule a law and allow the state to interfere based on cases like these, and ignore other thousand of cases where the parents are right and the state should stay away. No, we cannot give someone that power over our kids, especially when we know how is abused by the state.
Again, is breaking my heart to see such careless waste of young lives, but then, how many people die all the time from doctors mistakes? Do we make laws against all doctors because some of them make mistakes?

edit on 25-4-2013 by WhiteHat because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 04:20 PM
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Your rights end where others begin. Children aren't the property of the parents-if they were then child abuse laws wouldn't exist amongst other relevant laws so no, they don't have the right.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 04:23 PM
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Someone in the government is right now looking for ways to use this bad situation into a new law that forces treatment and vaccination on our own kids, against the parents will.

It's a very fine line indeed.

Although I believe that parents should have every rights over their child, should REALLY bad parents like that even be allowed to have a child without some sort of supervision?

IMO, those imbeciles shouldn't even be allowed to have another child since it's the second child to suffer their wrath.






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