What if you woke up tomorrow and government was gone?

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dieseldyk

 

If it whent that far, do you think that by forming a government you would be able to prevent further killings?

No, the government would be used to create a even bigger force so that it could put down everyone that does not comply to its form of governing. That is why you would form a government. And this is what our government is doing to day. Our governments are trying to form a One World Order where everyone answer to one government authority. And they are doing this without our consent. But we have to comply to our governments because we have given it power to prosecute us if we dont comply.

EDIT: We have not given government power to prosecute us. It has given it self the authority to do that.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to argue. but

1. people are dependent on government
2. population growth is directly related to the growth in energy usage. If governments disappear, the energy production will plummet and so will food production and populations will crash

gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com...

Check that link with a graph. Note that the graph shows human population growth to be in a bubble that is closely related to energy production.Every species on this planet is dependent on the amount of energy it has available to consume. Energy input increases then population increases, energy decreases and population crashes. Humans, being clever animals, have invented a way to structure their societies that bring order from chaos and invented technology that has increased energy and food production. This happened organically, we are here today because of what has happened. If Governments suddenly ceased to exist, the result will be a popping of the population bubble, we will revert back to a level of energy production that has not been seen in over 2000 years. The result will be a crash in the human population to under 100 million people. But I guess for those 100 million lucky survivors or more likely their third or fourth generational descendants, the world might be a low population paradise.

I hate to say it, but we as a species with our current population are addicted to energy, and so we are addicted to order. If governments disappear, chaos will reign, the population will crash and lots and lots of people will die and it will take years if not generations to level out.

Will forming another government change that, who knows, that would be like putting a hypothetical question on top of a hypothetical scenario and but that wasn't the question in the op.

Like I said what would happen... death and destruction and definitely not a utopia. People will get hungry and all pretenses of civility will dissipate.

reply to post by dieseldyk


Just because we dont have a government does not mean we cant have what we got now. It aint the governmt who drifts our society we do. We drift the whole system governed by the government.

We can manage very well without a government, but a government is usless without us. There is no way in hell they can drift our society.

But you are right about one thing, the world population to day is only possible because of fossil fuel.
The senario you describe will most likely take place if we run out of fossil fuel.

We are educated to think that we can only prevail if we are governed by a government and their system of laws. That is why you are not able to think of a differen solution to our problems. You are thought that there are two alternatives to choose from: one is chaos the other is to be governed by a strict set of laws.

What we really ned to become are individual with good moral values. That should not be very hard for any of us. All we have to do is choose it. We wont need a government if we all can behave.

But the argument is that no one can be trusted. So we think that a government is the only solution. If no one can be trusted what worth does a government have when there is not trust or morality?

What ever would make you think a government can be trusted? Because it created laws and prosecutes people?

"We wont need a government if we all can behave."

That is the major problem with humans, they don't all behave. If they did then the world would be a simple place to manage and we wouldn't need the trappings of government like law enforcement.

reply to post by Hopechest

Simply put, State governments were ineffective at running the nation or even their own region.

And wrongly put. State government never intended to run the nation (especially the disputes amongst the states) that is why the Federal Government was created. I would seriously doubt the veracity of the second proposition that the Federal government does a better job than the local government (in the eyes of the locals)

reply to post by seabag


I've wrestled with these ideas ever since I became a teenager and could feel something 'wrong' with current society. For ages I refused the current system, the corruptness of the governments, the countless 'evil' acts conducted by those in power, the continiously increasing divide between the rich and the poor and so on and so on.

For a while I became really 'liberal' as some of you would call it (I don't like words like this, they are all attempts to wrap up/box an ideaology into one tangible term - polarizes everything, just look at Communism Vs. Capitalism - most people don't have a scooby what the real difference is or the amount of grey area) and I used to be really anti-establishment, anti-government, anti-rules e.t.c

This is a sort of movement that was really picking up pace with the younger generation at the time as well (I guess it does every decade but it does vary) and I really thought I was right to think this way, that this is all #ed up and wrong and we need to take down those in power and make a dream utopia for ourselves - how naive I was.

The thing most people don't get (who are sceaming for revolution that is) is the minute we lose our governments we effctively lose our economies too via a snowball effect. The minute we lose our economy we lose our order (since how many police officers are going to be protecting you if they arn't being paid in any meaningful system of life). The minute we lose order we revert to the brutal way we got here in the first place - Survival of the Fittest. At this point all society has the potential to completely collapse - we're talking people murdering eachother for food, theft and rape at an all time high, gangs of armed 'bandits', gangs of wealthy connected people setting up new orders, e.t.c e.t.c. NOT a very good position to be honest.

I realise now that we have no real hope of changing anything for the better any time soon, and that our best bet for the dream utopia a lot of 'revolutionaries' speak of (don't talk revolution if you arn't willing to die for the revolution - rule #1) is a complete social reset. Literally, we'd have to wipe out the majority of the world's population and then nuture the 'new' batch with all the correct ways of living, approach them like Gods and TELL them how to live (maybe this happened with us and we failed), and hope that things turn out better. Though really and truly that's not a good solution either, as this timeline has shown us there is potential for greed, heartlessness and a general disconnection from being' human' and as long as that possibility exists it will be confirmed in people over time - so eventually most societies would reach this stage anyway unless stronger and stronger restrictions are put on the people.

Now that top paragraph sounds a lot like the conspiracies many people hold about the governments goals, and it's true. These are clever people, they arn't just idiots with power, a good majority of them are either great intellectual thinkers or are advised by such people. The government is aware of this fact, it is also aware of the fact that us 'cattle' are hoping to destroy the whole system from the bottom up because we want more money and 'freedom' lol. They are further aware that if we do this we effectively make the whole situation WORSE for a larger amount of people and for a longer time than necessary. It is a sad thought, but one you must ultimately grapple with otherwise you will spend a good majority of your time being sad at the state the world is in and the unfairness we perceive.

The fact is, OP, that if we woke up tomorrow with no government in place it would be a very dark day. There would be less freedom, less choice for acitvity, more danger on the streets and in your home, and it'd harder to sustain life in general. People think after the government is out of the equation a new 'good' power can take over, but without the government there would become an even bigger divide between those with a wealthy amount of physical asset and those without, and the same power system would eventually reside.

We made too many mistakes as a race over the last couple thousands of years and we are too deeply rooted in that aftermath now for an easy solution such as take out the government/there being no government. Our whole way of living is now centered around things which we need the current system to be in place for - it is the stage we are at in regards to our population size and lifestyle. Our real hope is to keep raising better generations of offspring and instilling good morals in them so they are good people in this world regardless of the system - and eventually we may accelerate our progression to a peaceful society. However, with all the crap kids are fed these days (physically and mentality) and with a high percentage of #ty parents in this world there isn't even much hope in that avenue anymore lol.

Let me just add something in regards to my reply above. Governments in themselves aren't inherently bad things, and humans naturally divide into a leader/follower system based on many factors (not always superiority, some people are just too laidback to lead others while being perfectly capable and so forth). However, the problem is that our human characteristics over time corrupt the role of the government and turn it into something like what we see today. The same can be said for money - an exclusive and universal trading denominator for goods - a very good idea that almost ALL societies would implement eventually (do you really want to be trading in terms of 12g of sugar for 20g of salt e.t.c lol?), but over time our human characteristics can and will and have turned it into a very ugly thing indeed.

This is why I say the problem is almost unsolvable. It is never about the system, or methodology of order, or currency implemented, or whether you're working 4 days a week or 5 days a week (I will admit the current system of work is absolute bollocks but once again a complete product of human characteristics - greed from the upper level). It is about us as humans and the darker traits which we have shown to be part of us NATURALLY (where did we learn to be greedy from, or to be selfish from, or to be heartless from?) that will over time corrupt any society. So once again, our best hope is not to suddenly change our system and expect things to magically get better, but to change ourselves as humans one by one, and ensure we raise even better versions of ourselves into this world so that one day down the line we can slowly but surely eradicate or 'shackle' these darker sides of our capabilities as humans and promote the good side. Although once again, you will always have individuals that break away from any mould you attempt to form, and if these gain power you can easily find yourself back at this current state of society.

It is a very tricky issue indeed.

HOWEVER, a VERY VERY VERY important point in regards to all of this is that our current government(s) may and probably will attempt (due to the reasons I listed in my first post above) to subdue our freedoms and behaviours further and further and further due to the increasing risk we are currently posing to the current system. This may eventually take us to a stage where we will be raised to be nothing but efficient working robots for the higher class and accept it happilly with no oppurtunity to rise out of our situation (something like the 'untouchables' in India's caste system). If it starts approaching this stage then we as humans (for our offsprings sake) will HAVE to fight against that cause, even if it means destroying this current system and having to trigger mass suffering until a new order is established. We CANNOT let the governments completely turn us into servent tools - there is a very fine line between playing the game for humanities sake and being forced to play the game at gunpoint, and many may not even notice the switch as it happens (especially those who don't see no wrong in the governments doings ever).

There is a fine balance to be achieved between the power the government holds and the power the public holds. If it skews too much in either direction then we will have big problems regardless.

Originally posted by Rob7774
"We wont need a government if we all can behave."

That is the major problem with humans, they don't all behave. If they did then the world would be a simple place to manage and we wouldn't need the trappings of government like law enforcement.

If it is a major problem it should be a major priority to solve. But creating new laws will not solve peoples immoral actions. Creating new laws will only effect a greater portion of people within a society who are not really immoral.

Government laws is actually a taxation system. You have to pay them money for braking their laws. You have been immoral against their system and their laws thereby you are forced to pay up or do time. Even if you have not caused anyone any harm, or put anyone in danger. All you have to do is break their laws.

If the governments intention was to create moral citizens it would have been done a long time ago. But there is a lot of money to be earned by our disobedience. That is also why you will see them create even more laws so that even more people will be prosecuted for break these laws. Their legal system would go bankrupt. And cops would be out of work if the government didnt create laws.

reply to post by seabag
Ummm....I've said this before and I'll say it again.........I have absolutely no desire...want...or need to be governed...policed...inspected...frisked...monitored...or otherwise bothered...harrassed...taxed...levied...by anyone, anywhere, at any time...to include governments, organizations, entities, departments, or jurisdictions.

I recognize no authority over me...I live my life in such a manner that it does NOT infringe upon or negatively impact any other life. I expect, rather, demand the same from ALL other persons/entities...regardless of rank, affiliation, percieved social standing, claims of jurisdiction or authority, etc.

To answer your question....Yeehaw...Praise the Lord...Halleleuya...Thank you Jesus...Sayonara...Goodriddance...Don't let the door hit you...Begone,SATAN...The back of your head...Wahoo...Whoopie...Dig, that...And...Amen, Amen and Amen..............KWIM?

YouSir

In theory and under ideal conditions, it would be great. Assuming a consensus of decent, compassionate people who were fully self sufficient and self moderating, it would be a utopia theoretically. In an ideal world, I'd love to see government shrink or vanish. I'd love to see a more community based (or tribal if you prefer) decentralization of government with more autonomy and distinctiveness from community to community. I'd love to see a global society without war, with freedom for all, and self-regulating, free individuals and communities caring for themselves and each other in the most efficient and fair ways possible. And I'd love to see technological potential unbridled, and human ingenuity set loose to create the kind of world we can only dream about and see in our fiction today.

In practical, cold, stark reality however, in my opinion the most probable outcome would be out and out corporate feudalism, skyrocketing poverty and disease, wholesale abandonment of the disabled and elderly in some areas, and possibly civil war.

The government does more than extract taxes from us, start wars, curtail our liberties, and expand its power. Whether I agree with the means or the true rationale behind the functions it serves, government is responsible for more things than we can even begin to consider in a forum post. But just off the top of my head, consider all of the following that would vanish overnight if government of any kind no longer existed. Please note before I say this that this does not mean I agree with or endorse how these things are currently run, what people are taught in them, etc. But they would likely cease to exist overnight were government to do the same.

So: roads, public schools, disease outbreak monitoring and management, law enforcement, aviation administration, free public libraries, medicaid, social security (and federal disability,) interstate highways, building codes regulations, and on and on and on.

Now, before you react, remember that I said I do not necessarily agree with how these things are implemented or enforced. But do I believe that the private centers of wealth in this country would continue to administer them out of pocket or that local communities would magically come together to replace these programs with local equivalents in all or even most cases? No, I don't personally believe that. I've seen far too many instances when, where regulations and laws are not enforced, as much as I may disagree with them and how they're implemented, businesses and individuals choose their own self interest over the broader good of the community. (Or the nation, or the world.)

We think private corporate security forces are out of hand now? If this were to happen overnight, corporations would have literal armies at their disposal. And would they take an oath to defend the constitution, let alone follow one? Call me crazy but I find the prospect dubious.

Would some communities take care of their sick, disabled, elderly and poor? Yes, absolutely. Would ALL regions and communities that currently benefit from social security, disability, Medicaid, etc. take it upon themselves to ensure people are taken care of? No, not in my opinion. It's impossible to say without it happening of course, but I have my doubts. I've seen too many people - even right here on ATS - advocate a sink or swim policy that would abandon such people wholesale to their own devices to believe organic, community driven equivalents of such programs would efficiently or fairly emerge.

Now, having said all of this, please don't confuse these fears and opinions with what I believe and what I want for our country and more importantly in my mind, our species as a whole. I'd much rather have the utopia I described in my opening paragraph. That's what's in my heart and what I believe in, long for, and hope we can one day achieve.

All I'm saying is that, sadly, that day is not today in my personal opinion.

Peace.

reply to post by AceWombat04


Well said. I agree with you 100% (read my replies above and you'll notice some of the similarities ).

I think a good point you made is that accepting that we need the government in this current point we're at does not necessarily mean you support all their actions, routes of method or goals. Like you say, deep down in my heart I envision a dream society which is pretty much nothing like this one to an extent (a lot like the one you summed up in your opening paragraph), but at the same time I'm aware how distant we are from that realization at this moment and removing the government doesn't take us a step closer but probably a hugeeee step back.

I think nowadays a lot of people may also feel like they aren't good people UNLESS they oppose the governments wholeheartedly due to the wrongness going on. Like, if you aren't desperately calling for revolution you musn't have much sympathy or such, but this is a dangerous way of thinking that may cause more harm than good in the end. One thing I'm especially worried about is this new breed of cyber-master-hacker kids like Anonymous as they have the abilities to literally crumple economies by hacking banking servers and systems. These are young kids who spend most their time improving their computer skills, who haven't lived in the real world for long, probably haven't lived rough ever and probably don't understand all the deep complexities of governments, economies, politics and generally the reasons for how everything is today. If these guys get too reckless (and each week they seem to be taking on a new 'moral' crusade of their own that involves cyber-attack blackmailing) they could cause so much damage from good intentions..

Well, things would be a little chaotic until some new type of leadership emerged.

If only there was a way to have every elected official pass a basic I.Q. and common sense quiz before they were given the (completely transparent) position by the people FOR the people.

The problem we have is that people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Besides that the logistics are simple.

It would be a terribly easy thing to change the world if one had control of the education system, but the only people that do have a vested interest in the continuation of current forms of government.

Originally posted by smilesmcgee
Well, things would be a little chaotic until some new type of leadership emerged.

If only there was a way to have every elected official pass a basic I.Q. and common sense quiz before they were given the (completely transparent) position by the people FOR the people.

IQ tests and a common sense quiz? You're joking right?

I think the problem lies more with the character of the person in question - morals, preferences, capability for sympathy towards strangers, the ability for selfless action e.t.c. IQ tests are good at showing how logical a person can be and how quickly they can grasp new concepts and implement them into a higher umbrella of understanding but does not show who makes a good leader or a good person in fact by any means.

I have an IQ of around 135, depending on the test, but I would never say it qualifies me above someone else for a role automatically. All I've noticed is that I'm a lot better at learning things to a deeper level and in a shorter amount of time as opposed to a person with a much lower IQ. The problem with IQs is you can have a person with an IQ of 160 but they could be a complete mug by nature, and use their advanced intellectual capabilities to screw over and manipulate those less gifted than them (which is actually what a lot of politics is about lol).

It really isn't something you can test. The decisions these people make arn't always based on intelligence or knowledge or mental ability. A lot of the time it is their personality, their willingness to bend or not to bend for others, their own self-sense of identity, their own love or lack of for a country or for their people or for humanity. their own greed e.t.c that make the decisions for them. That is not something you can easily test in individuals - just like how Mr. 160 IQ could be the most evil geeza around, Mr. GoodPresident could also be playing an incredibly complex and deep game of persona while his true intentions are kept covered by smoke and mirrors.

There is just sadly no simple solution like that =/

reply to post by seabag


Sure, I would be happy, personally, but I know that I would have to defend my happiness and freedom from the lowlander / city folk (zombies) rushing to the country to escape their wage slave hell.

I know my situation is not common, but I chose that path.

Life around here would revert to tribal law, which the people mostly follow anyway, and they have spring water and are self sufficient. The hardest part would be turning away starving people so your family can survive.

reply to post by seabag


After watching the video in its entirety, I was aghast at the sudden realization
that the irony and the subversiveness shown would be LOST on those great herds
of the very sheeple he/she/you are trying to help!

You have to be inherently a cynic and Libertarian to get the point of the video
and its sharp sub-text (if not subterfuge!)....BUT since it seems to be a labour
of self-love, I can understand if you continue to think all you're getting out of
those poor huddled masses, yearning to breathe free is a bloodied head
caused by its continued beating against all those brick walls that surround you!

Your only consolation is that you can make that fateful choice .... either
choose to REJOIN "The Matrix" or live OUTSIDE "In The Real World"!
Take the Red Pill or The Blue Pill ..... just don't leave BOTH in someone
else's hand....ME Personally? I happen to LIKE being my own NEO
.....so I think i'll have some fun by seeing how many minds I can free
this year......!!!! And if you REALLY want to have some fun, please do
start finding those errant KeyMasters who can get you into so many
back doors that the Agent Smith's of today's world have no power against you!

reply to post by spy66


I always thought that the government would like me to go to college, get an education and go to work. Marry a wife and have two kids. Pay lots of tax. Do not drink. Eat five portions of vegetables a day and never get ill. Pay lots of tax. Never break the law.Work like a busy bee for fifty years. Pay lots of tax.

When the British Labour Party came to power in 1997 they went on a law making spree that would see them create a new law every day that they was in power. They even made it a criminal offence to use a nuclear bomb on British soil. I didn't put this tom foolery down to taxation of the naughty. I considered that the majority of that government had at one time been members of the Communist Party and therefore really got hard at the thought of being able to turn you into that busy little worker bee.

reply to post by seabag


I would take over the country form a new government that is fair.

I think I would heave a great sigh of relief and then actually get on with my life, but in all honesty isn't this what we all want?
Only the foolish or desperate or clueless want the govenment around to run their lives.
And to be totally truthful I think the Government want it to be the other way round, they hope to wake up tomorrow and find us all gone.

Wow, that's quite and exciting and scary thought...

Being free of the tyranny is the good part but with zero law and order it would be an anarchists field day, looting, home invasions, gang violence on a major level.

Certain groups shall we say would then try and set themselves up as a new state, religious war would break out.

Many have lost or never gained the skill to survive on their own, to survive without being told what to do, to survive without hand outs.

Tis a very daunting idea..

um this already happened..and people still woke up and went to walmart.