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Nice counter arguments. What would convince you to believe in god?
If not the bible prophesy seemingly coming in fruition before our very eyes after it was written thousands of years ago, isnt that atleast proof of something beyond the scope of our understanding and perception albeit akin to "god".
If logic and reason were the only things involved, then no one would smoke. Logic doesn't change from one person to another, yet millions of Americans smoke even knowing that it is bad for them. Their "want" to smoke is apparently stronger than your "want" for good health. Or their want for freedom to do as they wish as opposed to your want for survival. Reason is of little use here. Ask the Americans in the Revolution who put freedom ahead of survival.
Yes to an extent we are a slave to our desires I will freely admit that, but our desires are not absolutely necessary. For example I used to love smoking cigarettes I was a pretty heavy smoker, but after weighing my desire to smoke against the reality of my health I decided to quit. It was a decision made using logic and reason.
Look at the United States, here we have freedom, but that freedom exists within reason. We do not have the freedom to cause harm without risk of punishment. Why? Because it causes suffering, . . .
Someone who loves to murder is causing suffering, someone who loves to rape is causing suffering. Their desire to do these things is outweighed by the fact that their victims suffer, and we should be free from suffering.
But, as a firm believer in reason and logic, you have not yet provided the ultimate "Why." Why should I not cause suffering to others if it enhances my wellbeing? If I could obtain a bazillion dollars by blowing up a dam in some other part of the world, why not? If I could have all of my physical needs met by enslaving a thousand people, why not? What logic says I should give up my "wants" for theirs?
Because if everyone did those things we would not have prosperous cities, we would not have intellectuals who study for their entire lives to cure disease.
He might ask "What's the connection? I intend to be so rich and powerful that those things will never happen to me. Raping people is fun. I do it because its high on my list of "wants." Why should he give up his "wants" for others'? What logic requires it?
Those who suffered through these times did not welcome the pain and anguish which was thrust upon them, so those of them who survived taught others not to do these things for two simple reasons "Do you want to be a slave? No. So why would you enslave someone? Do you want to be raped? No. Then why rape someone?"
Just because a majority of individuals can be persuaded to pass laws to protect their sorry rear ends, that only shows they want to protect the weak so that their "wants' can be protected at the expense of the "wants" of others. If there's logic, it's only of the "Please protect me, I can't protect myself" kind.
As time has passed we have manipulated our own moral systems, and by doing so have increasingly reduced the amount of suffering. Slavery has been abolished, rape has been criminalized, racism has been curbed through education, religion can be practiced freely without risk of being burned at the stake as a heretic.
How do we deduce, by logic, that we should be the most successful race, when none of us alive will see the results?
We are not the most successful race because we are the greatest predators (which one could argue we are), we are the most successful race because we cooperate i the most intelligent manner.
Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Wertdagf
You will be my only response. I couldn't help but notice less hate in your post.
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by randyvs
Spend less time trying to indoctrinate others,
There is no "RIGHT" way. There is no "WRONG" way. Life is a journey, and we all progress through it, some faster than others, some slower. Some with religions, some without. Some peacefully, some clawing and scratching their way through it.
One of the greatest mistakes many christians make is thinking their way is the ONLY way.
There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that man needs to "find" in this world to be saved.....and believe me brother, religion is of THIS world, not any other.
If logic and reason were the only things involved, then no one would smoke. Logic doesn't change from one person to another, yet millions of Americans smoke even knowing that it is bad for them. Their "want" to smoke is apparently stronger than your "want" for good health. Or their want for freedom to do as they wish as opposed to your want for survival. Reason is of little use here. Ask the Americans in the Revolution who put freedom ahead of survival.
Please remember that these are not my beliefs, I was playing the reducto ad absurdum game.
But my ultimate point is that logic cannot get us to where we can say "We should do "X"," Unless we have a good first principle, a "should" that is accepted, logic alone is unable to tell us what we should do.
Luke 27-31
27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
I believe that first principle is God and the law he has put in our being. It is experienced by people across time and cultures.
All men know it to be true.
Only by distorting one part of it do we get to the crazy behavior we have today.
Originally posted by randyvs
Well now, I decided to see if this will last in survival mode. And survival is the message here.
But as always my Modly friends, do as you will, by the authority vested in you.
Just a short positive message of hope to all my fellow members and guests,
believers and to the non believers as well. To whom, I would just like to remind
with out force feeding anything to the unbeliever. I would just ask of you to not forget,
these few simple words, thru these times that are filling everyday, more and more,
with darkness, confusion, and deep despair. I know this reads like a sermon but
just read it. It won't hurt and you might just need to hear it.
If you have Christ in your heart ? You will survive it all. All that is coming is ####.
And if you aren't already dead, you most likely still have time. So I ask,
do not ever give up on yourself. If you aren't ready yet ? It's very dangerous but, I believe
that even at the very end. If you call upon the most powerful name in the universe ?
You will be saved. You will survive all that is coming upon the world in the coming days.
Because you will survive even death. It's like a game of Russian roulette but I'm sure
there will be those who pull it off. And I'm way cool with that.
To the rest of you beloved, I say this. Remember !
That when there is no way ? God will make away.
And THE LORD OF HOSTS will do battle for us.
Remember the hope that our Heavenly Father has bestowed upon us.
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by randyvs
The extreme irony here is that in the lead up to the defining moment, it was all "Yesssssssssss!"
are you saying people who don't worship Christ are evil?
Originally posted by randyvs
Originally posted by reject
reply to post by randyvs
for everyone, else...replace Christ with Buddha, moses, mohammed, Krishna, etc.
just think of all the historical bloodshed because of religion
Ya I know, the evil men do ! But what does that have to do with my OP ?
Can't you stop dwelling on violence long enough to get thru this post ?
Absolutely right, but the laws of logic don't change regardless of who you are. Under what I think your system is, if perfect logic was used throughout the world people would largely come to the same conclusions about right behavior.
Actually Logic does change from one person to another, there is such a thing as bad logic, i.e. "Jane is a human, Jane is also female, therefore all humans named Jane are female". We have identified flaws in logic throughout history.
Which is a small part of my point. For certain things, left up to the individual, people will use their own desires as their guide. Not that that's wrong, everybody is free to decide what color to paint their room, for example, but for believers there is always one further check to be made outside their own desires.
Not everyone uses logic when it comes to certain things. A man might not decide to quit smoking, however he is definitely going to look both ways before crossing the street.
Thank you, thank you. The whole world thanks you. I am extremely long-winded and a summary will please everyone. That wasn't precisely what I had in mind, but hey, let's go with it. So, Ok, why should I? (says the sociopath who doesn't care what name you call him).
I can see you are writing the majority of your post as the devils advocate and I believe I can respond to the majority of it very simply without addressing all the points as the main question is...
"Why should I give up my want to cause suffering?"
Sorry to sound like a recording, but why should the needs of fifty people I don't even know outweigh my needs? How did you reach that conclusion?
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
So I have to worry about people 100 years from now, after I and my children are buried? Why? I don't owe them anything, besides civilized society is going to end sooner (Al Gore's global warming), or later (Universal heat death) anyway. I can't save it.
No civilized society can exist without rules, or without cooperation.
I'm satisfied with the progress we have now. Again, you're asking me to give up what I want for the benefit of others I don't even know. What kind of logic is that?
The more and more "liberal" human society has become in its interactions with its fellow man the more and more progress we have made.
God bless you, dear Openeye, you've made an old man happy. And quoting Luke, yet! Welcome, brother. (If that's not too offensive to you.)
But my ultimate point is that logic cannot get us to where we can say "We should do "X"," Unless we have a good first principle, a "should" that is accepted, logic alone is unable to tell us what we should do.
Well I just do not accept that as a fact. We have indeed set a standard "principle" of interaction throughout history and it has been expressed by a variety of different philosophers, poets, and holy men...
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by littled16
Incidentally, Hitler was a Christian too. He made numerous references to "God" and his purportedly divine works.edit on 24-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)
Let me put it this way: I would never trust a lion from the wild with a lamb just because it was trained and is currently behaving itself. Its the same animal.
Originally posted by spacemanjupiter
No such thing as christ. it's just a belief and a book and no proof to support it. There are plenty of beliefs and plenty of books out there.
Under what I think your system is, if perfect logic was used throughout the world people would largely come to the same conclusions about right behavior.
So, Ok, why should I? (says the sociopath who doesn't care what name you call him).
Welcome, brother. (If that's not too offensive to you.)
Oh, Openeye, what a gift you've given me. If we're together on this, maybe we could explore this first principle more thoroughly, or the Person who gave it to us.