5 or six kids, by four different men....um....ya know, I have lived hud subsidized housing quite a few times while my kids were young...(it wasn't subsidized for us by the way).....you're talking about some large families here....I've known only one....and they were all from the same guy, and he worked and lived with them....except for a small amount of time when the child welfare folks had him kicked out of his home because he was smoking cigarettes around the baby. I knew of a few families that size when I was growing up....but, that was a different time.

five or six kids, four different fathers....just one question....where were they fathers, I mean she should have been getting at least around $800 a month just from their child support...can we get all these dads out there refusing to support their children out picking up the trash also...

5 or six kids....let's say two of them are not school age.....well...that's $6 an hour extra the government will be paying her so she can pick up the litter. I've raised three kids...and ya know what...I spent far more hours on the go, chasing down kids, picking up after the family, doing laundry and cooking and the like than my husband would ever put in a day! a single mom with that many kids is working!!

the dads of these kids are abusing the system just as badly if not more than the mothers....maybe they should at least be picking up the trash along with her?? or at least be forced to pay the dang childcare bill or supervise the kids themselves while she does it.

right now what you got in the US healthcare system is well...outrageous costs..
businesses are in a bind trying to provide it to their employees.
country and state governments are in a bind to provide it to their employees and those within the social service system.
and of course, many american families are in a bind with it also.
so, the companies are in a bind....that could mean layoffs, it could mean no raises...
the governments are in a bind, that could mean higher taxes, higher property taxes..
the families are in a bind....might just mean that they are sick and not getting care. so, their property taxes increases more...so the other guy can have what they can't....and guess what...they lose their house..

maybe what the problem is is that for many people...there is just too much incentive to NOT work too hard! at least then...you can get that lifesaving operation before it kills you.

As far as the health system in the U.S. goes; there would have to be a lot of changes before socialized medicine could work here. I was retired from the Navy (after ten years of service) on a disability. I am a disabled vet (70%) and have experienced the VA medical system in five different states. Each clinic and hospital, although part of a federal system, is a totally different experience. Waits for an appointment can be anywhere from a week to six months. Waits to see a doctor can be anywhere from 15 min. to an hour. Only the hospitals have an emergency room, and some don’t even have that. If you are experiencing a true emergency, you are told to call 911.

In order to be eligible for treatment in the VA medical system, you have to be HONORABLY discharged and at least 50% disabled, have a service connected illness/injury, or be a war vet,. This system is heavily over burdened as it is. Many clinics and hospitals cannot take on anymore vets.

As a disabled vet, I can have two appointments a year in the clinic here. If I need anything else, I have to make a two and a half hour drive to San Antonio to the VA hospital. In Nevada I lived an hour from the VA hospital with no local clinic. In Florida, the clinic was a half hour away and the hospital was an hour and a half away. My meds are free since I am over 50% disabled, but they are limited on the drugs that they carry. Most are generic. I was diagnosed with sleep apnea after six months of waiting for an appointment. A year and a half later, I finally got my CPAP but had to go to San Antonio to get it. I am not allowed to take strong pain medications due to my sleep apnea. I am allowed one set of glasses a year. Dental is only for those who are 100% disabled.

I have been unemployed for three years due to my disability, plus another disability I received on my job four years ago. I am about to be hired by another company soon and will have a decent health care program that I have to pay into. My husband has a good paying job and we hate where we are living, but we had to go where the work is. The cost of living here, plus the fact that I now have to raise my two teenage grandchildren (whose father has never paid a penny of child support) means that I have to go back to work. I am 54 years old today. If this is how socialized medicine works here, I would rather leave the civilian medical system the way it is.

Originally posted by goose
You don't think the government gives to the rich pharmaceutical industries? Over there in the countries that subsidizes the phamaceutical industry at least their tax payers gets cheap drugs, over here all we get is $0 for our tax dollars they get.

Originally posted by edsinger
Last I heard the US government doesn't pay to have Merck or whomever develop drugs no...Look the Drug companies are plain robbing the American people of this I can not deny but giving drugs away is no fix either.

Last you heard, did you not read the link provided about how our gov. gives tax breaks to these people worth millions of dollars with no strings on how they spend that money? Who do you think is making up the difference in tax dollars for these companies? And, we are still paying a small fortune for our meds, many people choosing between food and medicine, and that's the lucky ones who can at least afford to see a dr..

Universal health care works better than the system we have now, it is working in 24 industrialized countries and it will work here. It beats the crap out of the system we have now. If you have a better idea, lets hear it. You continually say the government can't solve this problem, well their the only ones who can, unless you think the Wizard of Oz is going to do it.





[edit on 15-7-2007 by goose]

Originally posted by dawnstarthe dads of these kids are abusing the system just as badly if not more than the mothers....maybe they should at least be picking up the trash along with her?? or at least be forced to pay the dang childcare bill or supervise the kids themselves while she does it.

I can see your bitter........maybe legitamtely so, I don't know. But one thing for sure that we can 100% agree on is the worthless dads out there. I have no respect for these deadbeat scum and that comes from my feelings toward the dad of the child that we watched for 6 months.

Funny thing is, the mother gave him to the dad for the summer, and he still hasn't paid her squat. Dysfunctional lot they are.


As Darkelf pointed out about government run health care, the government cant do it, to much blubber to be efficient.

Originally posted by goose

Originally posted by goose
You don't think the government gives to the rich pharmaceutical industries? Over there in the countries that subsidizes the phamaceutical industry at least their tax payers gets cheap drugs, over here all we get is $0 for our tax dollars they get.

Originally posted by edsinger
Last I heard the US government doesn't pay to have Merck or whomever develop drugs no...Look the Drug companies are plain robbing the American people of this I can not deny but giving drugs away is no fix either.

Last you heard, did you not read the link provided about how our gov. gives tax breaks to these people worth millions of dollars with no strings on how they spend that money? Who do you think is making up the difference in tax dollars for these companies? And, we are still paying a small fortune for our meds, many people choosing between food and medicine, and that's the lucky ones who can at least afford to see a dr..

Universal health care works better than the system we have now, it is working in 24 industrialized countries and it will work here. It beats the crap out of the system we have now. If you have a better idea, lets hear it. You continually say the government can't solve this problem, well their the only ones who can, unless you think the Wizard of Oz is going to do it.





[edit on 15-7-2007 by goose]

Yea but to those countries have 300,000,000+ people?

Canada's population is 33,000,000.
Sweden's population is about 9,000,000 - there are more people in the City of New York alone then all of Sweden.

Do you have ANY idea of what our taxes would look like for universal health care for 300 MILLION PEOPLE? The taxes are bad enough as it is ...

Exactly Edsinger, the ultimate goal of the liberals is to eliminate the upper class and create some form of limited socialism possibly even communism depending on which loonies get voted into office. I have some similar charts and facts from my economics class:

- As of 2004 the top 1% paid 33% of the taxes
- As of 2004 the bottom 50% paid a mere 6% of the taxes

And the liberals say the rich need to pay more? What fools, some of those liberals really need to seek professional help.

[edit on 16-7-2007 by ChrisF231]

Yup ,


please edit your post, Cut some out from between the pic and the paragraphs.

hmmm....wonder if that is the same 50% that is receiving free and reduced lunches.....does it really make sense to have those who are having more than the taxes they are paying into the system given back to them on the basis of need? seems to me, you'd just have to give them more to make up for the extra taxes...

or, does it make sense to take more from those that are barely scrapping by..again, seems to me, you'd end up just giving it back to them, wouldn't you?

the hands that feed me....let's see...must be talking about all those immigrants that are harvesting the crops....no???

the resturant workers who deliver those yummy dishes....no??

my boss!!! no, wait a minute...my boss isn't hurting but he definately aint in the top 20 or 40 percential I don't think.

hmmm, let's see...just who could it be.....my mom's dead so it can't be her....my brother has helped us out of few binds...but again...he's not hurting but he ain't rich....

sorry, just can't think of anyone in those top income brackets that have done much of anything to feed me....

care to explain??

the best deadbeat story as far as dads goes is the one who had his ex ship the kids across the country to visit him...his mom paid the fare....but then...well..he decided he didn't want them there after all, and didn't want to pay to ship them back...so, well, he dropped them off at the nearest social service office. who was gonna put them in a foster home if she didn't come up with the money to get them home...she went around to everyone she knew begging for the money to get them home....he was a heartless jerk, she, I think was the dumbest women I ever knew...

I agree that the government really can't do much to fix this mess. anything program or legislation they come up with will quickly be torn apart, analyzed, and used by the masses for their own advantage....the rich will, the poor will, the conservative will, the liberal will....it's human nature I think.
but, I disagree that it's just the liberals working their way to that fine socialist system. the conservatives are working just as hard. too many employers want to pay squat for the labor provided to them. this produces a bunch of needy people who have to be dependant on something else...and at least one has expressed their view on this...if they are providing, then they should have a say as to how these people should act, what they should buy, heck, even forced work programs....freedom depends on independance.
doctors are now depending on insurance companies....the price they paid for the insane fees that they desire to charge though was that now, the insurance companies often times decide just how they should treat their patients. society feels they should have a say on how we all should be eating, ect.

seems to me that the rich, the poor, well, it doesn't matter, nor does political affiliation matter...they're all heading down that path to socialism....and the eventual loss of freedom.



[edit on 16-7-2007 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by dawnstar
seems to me that the rich, the poor, well, it doesn't matter, nor does political affiliation matter...they're all heading down that path to socialism....and the eventual loss of freedom.

Socialism doesn't mean a loss of freedom, far from it, see link in my sig...

Maybe you meant to say 'fascism', or corporatism?

It does not matter how many people live in those countries, it is the same economic principles. The larger the group the more people paying into the system.

As for all of your reasons, like numbers and cost, the government argued and debated over whether rural postal service could be brought to every home and business and they argued over the cost and the economics of it, but no one bats an eyelash at the mail delivery each day, anymore.

As for us liberals, lets look at who has created this mess with the health care sytem, OMG, no it can't be the conservatives who elected Nixon who gave us the HMO's and basically the start of the mess we are in now, most of the time we have had a republican administration in office, so who do we thank for these overwhelming prices in healthcare?

Who do we thank for getting us down to a ranking of 37 for healthcare in this country, since the conservative have been in power more than the liberals?

As for biting the hand that feeds me, that's a joke, right? If the rich are not making money off of the working stiffs in this country then you can bet they would certainly not keep those companies open and since the rich are getting richer much faster than the middle class and working poor, who are sliding backwards on income, you can bet the scales are tipped in their favor, not ours.

I got it now, its envy. I don't want what others have, and I am not mad if they are rich, especially if they earned it and didn't inherit it.

Lets look at what we do in this country, we pay UAW autoworkers ~45-60/hr with benefits and such and they have 1 job, if the line breaks down, they wait on maintenance and do not offer a helping hand.
A lot of these type issues are caused by unions and look at what is happening to the American auto industry.

I work in a place that is NON union and when something breaks , they are more people there trying to help fix it than you can shake a stick at. Its called incentive and it works.

But that being said we are now competing in the world market, against cheap labor, we need to be competitive so socialist leanings will not help in that regard.



As for the dead beat dad story, that a^%&^hole needs his teeth removed.

Originally posted by edsinger
I got it now, its envy. I don't want what others have, and I am not mad if they are rich, especially if they earned it and didn't inherit it.

No I am not envious I just want a decent living wage paid to workers in this country. If they can afford to pay huge amounts to their CEO's they can afford to pay the working man a living wage.

So that, we will no longer have a group of people called the working poor. Some areas have passed laws in their areas already forcing companies to pay a living wage.

I want the government to either fix the health care problem they have created in this country, by allowing this crisis to happen through the laws they have passed in the past that tip the scales in the favor of insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies, or institute universal health care.

edsinger,

ya know......
I wake up about four or five times each night with my feet and legs cramping up... I walk down the stairs at home on step at a time....I don't trust the railings enough to try to alternate which foot I step down with. the rails at work are more trustworthy, I can let them support much more weight. just a slight jarring at work....stepping halfway on a mat, bumbing into something...hurts like heck!! and yet, I go to work everyday....do my thing...and pop lots of tylenol!!

a few months ago, I started getting a pain in my upper stomach...and ignored it. still am...even though now, there seems to be devoloping a nice lump there also. I have insurance, but well...I've been there, I've done it already with the foot...and ya know what, it didn't work...they're gonna wipe you out with their tests, their perscription drugs, ect...long before they ever even find out what it is. you're gonna end up thousands of dollars in debt, credit cards maxed out, and wake up one day and finding you ain't even got the money to put into the gas tank....it went into the perscriptions that doctor said you just had to have if some stupid test was to be taken...and you still won't be any closer to knowing what is wrong with ya than when you started.
no thanks...keep your medicine, keep you doctors, I'll keep my money till something is done to fix the mess! and considering the side effects of many of their medicines.....I'll probably live longer than many!

no, I am not jealous....but this country is self-destructing very quickly...
simply put....the lower income people don't have any incentive to make more...unless they can make lots more. if they do...they'll lose their healthcare, maybe their apartment....have to live on $30 a week for groceries for their family of 5....be cold in the winter...and well, it would take alot more than they could make to do actually have to pay for all that!! it's a very destructive policy.....having this gap between those that are eligible for assistance, and those that can actually afford to have what is given to them. the gap has been progressively widening the past few decades...especially when it comes to healthcare. and well....if given a chance between watching you child suffer because you can't get the medicine that would alliviate it, or downgrading you job to one that will make you eligible for the assistance that would provide it...which would you chose?

My you make it sound like this is the worst place in the world, how about the children that are eating out of garbage dumps in Mexico City.

As a matter of fact I am right at this moment talking to a Mexican national (here doing work) and he tells me just how POOR some people are there. We in the united States have it made for the most part. We just dont know it.

Some slip through the cracks here, but complaining about buying groceries with $30 does not say much if you don't even have the $30.

There are poor and they should be taken care of somehow, but when the government gives handouts it tends to become a generational thing, which by the way guarantees democrat votes.

Whats the solution? I am not sure but the government and free handouts doesn't work.

I am middle class, but when I pay my school debt every month, I make less than before I went to school almost. Its a decision that I made and don't yet regret because someday I will get out of this mess. Handouts? I didn't get any unless you count PELL grants. They paid for some diapers but not much else.

Oh God if that isn't the typical response from a republican, drag out the old red, white and blue. Try and say anyone who says anything about impoving anything in this country is not being patriotic enough and not being appreciative of what they have.

If someone is pissing down your back and telling you it's raining, and you know better, but let them continue pissing down your back because to say something is criticism, then you can darn well bet I am going to criticize, you can let them piss down your back all you want to.

You state over and over that universal health care will not work, but you do not give any alternatives to it, so far universal health care is the only option anyone has put forth that might work. It works in 24 other countries and it will work here just as well.

Originally posted by goose
Oh God if that isn't the typical response from a republican, drag out the old red, white and blue. Try and say anyone who says anything about impoving anything in this country is not being patriotic enough and not being appreciative of what they have.

Typical Liberal response, they have more I want some of it. Lets just 'stick it' to the rich. It doesn't work that way and it never will. I adhere to trickle down economics, low taxes for all, and growth. I am just stating fact, anytime the federal government has taken over something like this it gets more inefficient and the quality goes down. that is fact.

Originally posted by gooseYou state over and over that universal health care will not work, but you do not give any alternatives to it, so far universal health care is the only option anyone has put forth that might work. It works in 24 other countries and it will work here just as well.

It is not the only option and you keep saying how well it works in these 24 countries, let some of the people in the UK for example give some feedback on how well they like this so called 'Great System', heck ask some Canadians.

Do I have a solution? Well I can say this, what we do have is not working, that I agree on, but the last thing I want is the federal government to run it. There are other options, but either way we go, it is going to cost the US taxpayer MORE and MORE and we will get to the point that those with jobs will be taking care of those without jobs.


For starters, lets get the damn anti-lawsuit legislation started and get the pricing and growth of medical care in general under control.

Originally posted by dawnstarbut don't fear...your cigars and cigarettes probably wont be taxed more.Bush vows to veto it....

Ah now it is them darn beer drinkers and cigarette smokers. Crap they just raised the taxes $0.50 a pack , and it still isn't enough for the left.

How many more times are they going to call it a sin tax just as daddy Bush did.. It will never stop. BTW, most of the smokers are middle to lower class so whom does it really hurt?

I like that restaurant in the UK that became an embassy so that its patrons could smoke. I so hope they are successful at it.