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The Myth of the Working Poor

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posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 12:25 AM
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This puts forth a good argument about socialism and its failures, how government dependant people are not good for the people in which the politicians attempted to help in the first place.



Forty years ago a young, radical journalist helped ignite the War on Poverty with his pioneering book The Other America. In its pages, Michael Harrington warned that the recently proclaimed age of affluence was a mirage, that beneath the surface of U.S. prosperity lay tens of millions of people stuck in hopeless poverty that only massive government intervention could help.

Today, a new generation of journalists is straining to duplicate Harrington's featto convince contemporary America that its economic system doesn't work for millions and that only government can lift them out of poverty. These new journalists face a tougher task than Harrington's, though, because all levels of government have spent about $10 trillion on poverty programs since his book appeared, with disappointing, even counterproductive, results. And over the last four decades, millions of poor people, immigrants and native-born alike, have risen from poverty, without recourse to the government programs that Harrington inspired.


SNIP


Like Shipler, in other words, Lipper has reversed cause and effect. She sees social dysfunction in Pittsfield and blames it on poverty. But it typically is personal failure and social dysfunction that create poverty. To stay out of poverty in America, it's necessary to do three simple things, social scientists have found: finish high school, don't have kids until you marry, and wait until you are at least 20 to marry. Do those three things, and the odds against your becoming impoverished are less than one in ten. Nearly 80 percent of everyone who fails to do those three things winds up poor.

That's a crucial truth that left-wing social thinkers have tried to deny from the earliest days of the welfare-rights movement. And as these books show, even after the conclusive failure of the War on Poverty and the resounding success of welfare reform, they are still at it.



www.city-journal.org...




posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 12:39 AM
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Sounds pretty true

I grad'ed high school

Don't even plan on marry'ing

But hey, If I find a chick I simply CANNOT RESIST- then I guess I will have no choice eh?

Haven't seen a chick like that though yet



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 12:39 AM
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Is it possible that there is a specific demographic that this is directed towards?

I want to see someone offer a solution rather than state the obvious. Yes, the 3 steps are no-brainers, but they do nothing to help those already in the cycle. In most cases, we are products of our environment and the kids end up doing as their parents did. How do we break the cycle mid-stroke and help those already stuck in poverty?


BG



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 12:54 AM
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The only way someone struck by poverty to recover is to have someone reach a lending hand.

Thats the only way-

Church- Family- Community

Those are the only ways


Someone who is not yet strucken by poverty- must learn either from someone or by himself how to avoid it



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by aukaiman55
Church- Family- Community

Those are the only ways


These are so true, but the government can not do it as well, when given stuff, 80% will become dependent, if given a shot to earn it, most will and it will mean more to them and that is how you attack poverty.



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 09:32 PM
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I would have thought that 'community' was to some extent the government. If the community gets together as an organized group wouldn't that include the government, without excluding other organized groups, of course-- but not excluding the gov't either.

I'm not in favor of gov't help in the form of eternal hand outs, but why not help for the poor as well as help for large corporations? New industries get property tax breaks, give low income folks a break on homeowner taxes. Industry gets grants to offer training to employees, give education grants to poor parents ( I know some of this type do exist). Improvements for business are tax deductable, (I sure could use a break for my re-roofing).

And yes, I graduated high school, college, and have some grad school, married when I was 27 and had children at 29 and 30--but fate has stepped in a few times. Medical bills, family emergencies that require one wage earner to leave the work force to care for another family member, living in a community where the main employer closes, having the stock market suck the life out of the kids college fund...my experiences have taught me not to be too quick to assume poverty is always a result of laziness or stupidity. The best laid plans...oft gang aglay.



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by frayed1
And yes, I graduated high school, college, and have some grad school, married when I was 27 and had children at 29 and 30--but fate has stepped in a few times. Medical bills, family emergencies that require one wage earner to leave the work force to care for another family member, living in a community where the main employer closes, having the stock market suck the life out of the kids college fund...my experiences have taught me not to be too quick to assume poverty is always a result of laziness or stupidity. The best laid plans...oft gang aglay.


Dam we have a lot in common, and yes luck can be bad and fate does make things happen, there should be a net for that, but you can see the rampant abuse in the present system, something must change...


Actually the Republican Congress and Clinton went a long way towards this goal..



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 10:21 PM
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we all need to see reality of the poor.they out number the rich 10 folds.to think that any one person is better because of some wallet size money they have is a fool.remember there the poor because of greed.greed will be in court one day when all our resources are striped from us.flukemol............



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by flukemol
we all need to see reality of the poor.they out number the rich 10 folds.to think that any one person is better because of some wallet size money they have is a fool.remember there the poor because of greed.greed will be in court one day when all our resources are striped from us.flukemol............


Well actually it is the middle class that is ebing squeezed not the poor. The safety net remains (as it should)


Poor in the United States has a completely different meaning if looked at on a world scale..



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by aukaiman55
Church- Family- Community
Those are the only ways


These are so true, but the government can not do it as well, when given stuff, 80% will become dependent, if given a shot to earn it, most will and it will mean more to them and that is how you attack poverty.


Just a short example of going it alone from poverty to "feeling well off".

I grew up in the late 60's, 70's, and early 80's. My family didn't have a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of. I grew up, for the most part, having only a mom for 8 yrs. A wonderful man came into her life and made her and us kids his own. But he was in the same boat as we were. I joined the military just short of my 18th birthday. I spent 10.5 yrs. in the military, got married, the wife suck the life blood from me, got divorced because of her incessant cheating while I was deployed, and shortly after getting out, had to file for bankruptcy. I thought I had hit rock bottom. But guess what! Because of the man we, my siblings and my mother, married, and my military background,which showed me how to grow up, take responsibility for my actions, network with my friends, I fought back. I, now, work for a HUGE multi-national corporation, making, almost, twice the U.S. national average per year.

It's called "PERSIVERANCE" (spelling). I didn't wait around for handouts or the gratuitous "I'm Sorries"...I went looking for what I needed...for what I wanted. Granted...I don't make a 6 figure income, but guess what! I found what I wanted!

Honestly, it's not that difficult, as long as you are willing to put in the time and the effort needed, and to go through a little hardship.

Now granted, not everybody has the ability to go through what I went through, but there are certain individuals that sit on their laurels and wait for that gratuitous handout.

If I'm being a turd.....Just let me know, I can take it!



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 06:28 PM
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Good topic, and lots of good post from everyone.
There were similaraties in my past also. I liked the three things people should do to stay out of poverty. I finished school, have some college and trade school. But it was still very dificult to find work, so I responed by going back to school. I was forchant that I had family that could help in during this time of my life. I did finely find a job, that I have manged to keep for some time now, with some periods of being in lay off status. During the times I was not working, I did not sit back and give up, and I can say that up to this point, I have not taken a Gov hand out. I might not have contribuated much to society they way some people would see it, but I at least do manage to pay my taxes, and my bills.
I hope I can make the same statments when I cant work any more.



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 06:30 PM
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i would have to say there is a working poor. i should know i'm one of them. i work full time but yet i can barely afford to pay bills and get to and from work. and this after i have to get all of my rent money from my parrents.
my full-time earnings if i used them would cover my rent for a crapy apartment, i would mabe have enough left to get to work.

no i did not finish high school i am short 1 creadit due to haveing a mental patiant as a teacher. ( i didn't know at the time but he had just got out of the mental ward that year and got put back in afterwards, the guy couldn't even keep grades straight). i did not feel i could survive another year as i had almost been arrested on a totaly bogus complaint, and ended up with an ulcer from it. ( one of the 2 people who had lied actualy had the odasity to apolagize almost 4 months later, they aperantly just wanted me to get kicked out of class for the day). i wasn't very good at school to begin with i did not need the extra stress.

now how could the situation be fixed? easy force companies to pay a liveing wage, i know many people who work 2 and 3 jobs to be able to afford to get by. ( i just don't have the energy for that). one i worked with almost lost his hand because he was so tired he forgot to turn off the air suply to a machine before clearing a problem.

i was able to get money to try to get a skill and get a better job. i passed now i just get told that they are sorry but they need to hire a minority so they are in obayance to labour laws. mostly i don't even get a call and companies don't seem to like it if you call them.

funny thing is because i have been with my company so long a make more than minimum wage.lol minimum wage needs to be at least doubled here to survive. surprise surprise that there are not enough jobs when 1 person needs 2 jobs to live half decently. force companies to reduce proffits and pay employees a fair wage and we just might have less unemployment. my company is one of the biggest and proffit makeing in the world, all on the backs of their workers.



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by drogo
funny thing is because i have been with my company so long a make more than minimum wage.lol minimum wage needs to be at least doubled here to survive. surprise surprise that there are not enough jobs when 1 person needs 2 jobs to live half decently. force companies to reduce proffits and pay employees a fair wage and we just might have less unemployment. my company is one of the biggest and proffit makeing in the world, all on the backs of their workers.


Well I came from a family with nothing either, grew up in a trailer park. So I have been there.

But,


If the working poor have the time and money to be posting on the Internet, then of course food, shelter, and clothing are not an issue.

I am not singling you out and I hope things get better, I would suggest you get your GED and move on from there.


But nonetheless, in the United States even our poor are much better off than 3 billion other humans on this planet and yet...........



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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There's a new war raging with the middle class. It's a war to avoid becoming part of the poor. Ther are now millions in this country who did all the right things, high school. college or tech school and even planned their education to take advantage of the jobs forecast that told them of the opportunities of the future, but what they couldn't read was the greed that would make their hardwork useless. The greed that would send not only the labor intensive production work overseas but also the high-tech, white collar work as well.

We decided as a country, yes the government went along with the decision, to become a country that makes very few of it's own products. The very products that made us a power in the world--Electronics, aircraft, steel and products that win wars, are now being shifted overseas to create bigger profits for corporations that seem to forget the destructive capacity of human-nature--ourpropensity for war. Yet we continue to engage in small wars here and there believeing that even though we can't support ourselves in the event of a large breakout of war, we'll always be in the drivers seat. We won't, well continue to lower the wages or offshore--and become a nation of lower middle class Americans held hostage by countries like China, as they continue to buy our debt and bide their time.



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 07:25 PM
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There's one very simple (but very difficult to understand and/or believe) solution for all of this. It's found in the archives of the paranormal forum of ATS.

Here the subject is being touched.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If everyone on the planet understood this, they would understand that there is really no place for poverty.

[edit on 19-3-2005 by TheBandit795]



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 08:59 PM
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How exactly does not having kids untill your married prevent you from becoming impoverished?
I fail to see what a legality will do to prevent you from losing the job needed to support your family.



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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I have to say, there is a working class and I'm yet another one stuck in it. Ok, so I have internet access..big deal, I need that for my job, so I wouldn't exactly call it a luxury. My rent takes over half my weekly income, food takes roughly 25% of what's left, so I'm left with maybe 15% of my income to cover bills, clothes, unexpected events etc..

For example. I am down to one pair of jeans, and two pairs of shorts..that's what I work in, play in, sleep in etc... I'm going to get some more (cheap) clothes this week...but that means I'm going to be struggling for food untill next Friday when my next pay comes in. I finished high school, got my college degree, I've done everything I was told I had to do, but in my case, it's the location that's killing me. There are just simply no decent jobs here. They are all low paid, so low it is nigh on impossible to get some savings together to move to a city where I'd be able to pull my life together.

This isn't a result of lack of government intervention imo. It's due to the fact business (at least in this town) will NOT pay anymore than the minimum wage, and will pay even lower if they can get away with it. They want the most bang for their buck.

I don't get sick leave, holidays, flexi-days, rdo's, nothing. If I don't work, I don't get paid, simple as that...and as soon as I start earning some real money, I'm going to loose a big chunk of it in tax to pay back my HECS fees (for those who don't know what HECS are, it's basically a government loan. They pay your college fees, and in turn as soon as you earn over a certain amount of money, you start paying it back just like you do a loan).



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
This puts forth a good argument about socialism and its failures, how government dependant people are not good for the people in which the politicians attempted to help in the first place.



Forty years ago a young, radical journalist helped ignite the War on Poverty with his pioneering book The Other America. In its pages, Michael Harrington warned that the recently proclaimed age of affluence was a mirage, that beneath the surface of U.S. prosperity lay tens of millions of people stuck in hopeless poverty that only massive government intervention could help.

Today, a new generation of journalists is straining to duplicate Harrington's feat?to convince contemporary America that its economic system doesn't work for millions and that only government can lift them out of poverty. These new journalists face a tougher task than Harrington's, though, because all levels of government have spent about $10 trillion on poverty programs since his book appeared, with disappointing, even counterproductive, results. And over the last four decades, millions of poor people, immigrants and native-born alike, have risen from poverty, without recourse to the government programs that Harrington inspired.


SNIP


Like Shipler, in other words, Lipper has reversed cause and effect. She sees social dysfunction in Pittsfield and blames it on poverty. But it typically is personal failure and social dysfunction that create poverty. To stay out of poverty in America, it's necessary to do three simple things, social scientists have found: finish high school, don't have kids until you marry, and wait until you are at least 20 to marry. Do those three things, and the odds against your becoming impoverished are less than one in ten. Nearly 80 percent of everyone who fails to do those three things winds up poor.

That's a crucial truth that left-wing social thinkers have tried to deny from the earliest days of the welfare-rights movement. And as these books show, even after the conclusive failure of the War on Poverty and the resounding success of welfare reform, they are still at it.



www.city-journal.org...


The thing that blows a 50 mile wide hole in points attempted to be made by people like Shipler, is this:

In America there is no left or right, or Republican or Democrat. All sides are controled by the exact same secret society (and since higher secret societies control lower level secret societies, then it's really societies.).

1. In America, the entire programs for the poor started in the Great Depression era. The majority of the poor (which led to the creation of welfare, and every other major progam for the poor) were white Americans.
The goverment on purpose never wrote into the laws when these programs are to end. Common sense would say, if they were created to help combat the Great Depression, then they should've been ended after the GD was over.

2. Skull and Bones Society.... Democrats and Republicans are both members of this same secret society. Dems and Repubs both take orders from the exact same leadership.
The societies involved in the secret societies who meet at Bohemian Grove in California. Republicans, and Democrats again are controled by the secret societies that meet at Bohemian Grove.

3. It was under Republican Prez, George Bush, that the worse ever immigration laws were passed/attempted to be passed - in the entire history of America. ANY illegal imigrant can come into the USA (if Bush continues to get his way), no questions asked. Any legal imigrant has to go on a waiting list and have tons of questions asked.

www.washtimes.com...



President Bush yesterday moved aggressively to resurrect his plan to relax rules against illegal immigration, a move bound to anger conservatives just days after they helped re-elect him.


4. Some members of this site posted on another forum that this entire site just needs 2 forums, with 2 threads. Why? Because the BIG, big, big, picture covers alllll these other little pictures. Including the imigration problem in America.
Clinton was one of the most Republican presidents in hostory (read Michael Moore's book about Clinton's voting record.)
Bush is doing things that goes 100% against what conservatives are suppose to stand for. (Like my example at the link I posted, showing how Bush is pushing the worse ever imigrant policy in American history!)

5. I'm an American citizen. BUT there's a ton of truth to one point legal and illegal imigrants make: That there are jobs Americans refuse to do. No matter how much they pay. "That's beneath me!" Americans will say. Even Bush himself stated this! Bush said American citizens are lazy, and refuse to work at the new jobs Republicans help create.



posted on Mar, 19 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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A hand out begets a hand out...ad infinitum. Welfare only creates a sociological class weighed down by self-proclaimed inability and flaccid motivation. Why? Liberal Dems(take it from one who lives in Kennedy Country) blindly set out in God-like fashion many moons ago to erase poverty by shoveling tax dollars into programs that fed, clothed, and sheltered at the same level as a working class family. Give em a taste of the good life and they'll want to go to work? Wrong. Free money is not a motivational tool, simply put, it's only free money.



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 12:38 AM
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I knew this old guy with one brown eye and one blue eye. He had a picture of Ronald Reagan on the wall of the roach-infested motel room he rented week by week. He'd worked a non-union job in a rural garbage dump his whole life. Always voted Republican and thought he'd strike it rich, until the day he died. Lived on Social Security and our hand outs. Real good way to end. At least he didn't generate a lot of pollution through consumption.

You could wind up just like that too, with a few good strokes of bad luck- car accidents, flood, tornado...

True story. Not myth. Republicans make me puke.



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