Come, find the "narrow path" (gate)...ask God now for the grace to believe

reply to post by colbe

I was responding to you speaking of the Eucharist as cannibalism. It is not, the Eucharist is supernatural. After the priest's words of consecration, bread and wine become Our Lord even though you do NOT see a change in the bread and wine.

So if, after an ordained priest's consecration of the bread and wine, that bread and wine were to be tested...it would reveal itself to possess the same properties as flesh and blood? And even if it did not, it is symbolically utilized as though such were the case. This is the principle of cannibalism, just as putting up a poster of President Obama and unloading a semiautomatic on it is the principle of violent rejection.

God wants you to believe, it is truly Him now. That is what Our Lord means in John 6, the "spirit and life"
verse. Do not think with human understanding, go higher, think and believe spiritually, supernaturally.

Your god is omnipotent. Any method he chooses to utilize in order to instill his essence within his followers can be completed in an instant with a mere thought. In accordance with the parameters of our psychology, he has chosen the most irrational and mistake-prone system available to him - especially given his conspicuously distant demeanor. Surely a more obvious and convincing means would be no trouble for him? Oh, but wait:

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by colbe

 

I was responding to you speaking of the Eucharist as cannibalism. It is not, the Eucharist is supernatural. After the priest's words of consecration, bread and wine become Our Lord even though you do NOT see a change in the bread and wine.

So if, AFTER an ordained priest's consecration of the bread and wine, that bread and wine were to be tested...it would reveal itself to possess the same properties as flesh and blood? And even if it did not, it is symbolically utilized as though such were the case. This is the principle of cannibalism, just as putting up a poster of President Obama and unloading a semiautomatic on it is the principle of violent rejection.

I love your question. If you can come to believe in the Eucharist, have faith, the times ahead, when we go through the Great Tribulation, you will not be waylaid.

Replying to your question, No, what we see, the bread and wine remain the same but both the bread and wine are now the risen Christ.

I found a good explanation to help explain humanly speaking, the mystery of the bread and wine becoming the risen body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

Catholics call it Transubstantiation.

I'll try to put it in my own words first. When I say "supernatural", I mean this is God's action. Jesus tells the disciples in John 6, what I am explaining to you is supernatural not in a human way of understanding (Jesus' "spirit and life" verse, John 6:63 - KJV). It is God's desire to come to everyone in the Eucharist. You have to think above the physical mind set, God is not limited by the physical.

Christians believe in the Trinity, Christians believe the Incarnation even though they do not full understand them. This is the meaning of faith so have faith in a third, the Eucharist. Accept, God can do anything. The bread and wine (the accidents) at the priest's words of consecration remain the same but (substantially), the bread and wine are now Jesus Christ, Our Lord for a few minutes after you receive Him. Don't think in a human way (cannibalism). Jesus is telling you, I wish you to receive Me into your person, all of Me. To actually receive God, think of the help this is for your soul!

+ + +

"Transubstantiation is predicated upon the distinction between two sorts of change: accidental and substantial. Accidental change occurs when non-essential outward properties are transformed in some fashion. Thus, water can take on the properties of solidity (ice) and gas (steam), all the while remaining chemically the same. A substantial change, on the other hand, produces something else altogether. An example of this is the metabolism of food, which becomes part of our bodies as a result of chemical and biological processes initiated by digestion. In our everyday experience, a change of substance is always accompanied by a corresponding transition of accidents, or properties.


In the Eucharist—a supernatural transformation—a substantial change occurs WITHOUT accidental alteration. Thus, the properties of bread and wine continue after consecration, but their essence and substance cease to exist, replaced by the substance of the true and actual Body and Blood of Christ. It is this disjunction from the natural laws of physics which causes many to stumble (see John 6:60-69). See chart below.

Indeed, transubstantiation is difficult for the natural mind (especially with its modern excessively skeptical bent) to grasp and clearly requires a great deal of faith. Yet many aspects of Christianity which conservative, evangelical, orthodox Christians have no difficulty believing transcend reason and must ultimately be accepted on faith, such as: the Incarnation (in which a helpless infant in Bethlehem is God!), the Resurrection, the omniscience of God, the paradox of grace versus free will, eternity, the Union of the Human and Divine Natures in Christ (the Hypostatic Union), the Fall of Man and original sin, and the Virgin Birth, among many other beliefs. Transubstantiation may be considered beyond reason, yet it is not opposed to reason; suprarational, but not irrational, much like Christian theology in general.


If one accepts the fact that God became Man, then it cannot consistently be deemed impossible (as many casually assume) for Him to become truly and really present under the appearances of bread and wine. Jesus, after His Resurrection, could apparently walk through walls WHILE remaining in His physical (glorified) body (John 20:26-27)....

forums.catholic.com...

John 6:63 (KJV Bible) 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


God bless you AI,

reply to post by colbe

In the Eucharist—a supernatural transformation—a substantial change occurs WITHOUT accidental alteration. Thus, the properties of bread and wine continue after consecration, but their essence and substance cease to exist, replaced by the substance of the true and actual Body and Blood of Christ. It is this disjunction from the natural laws of physics which causes many to stumble (see John 6:60-69). See chart below.

You are contradicting yourself all over the place here. No, the bread and wine does not change - "the properties of bread and wine continue after consecration" - , but their "essence and substance cease to exist". Through transubstantiation, they actually do change. They are still bread and wine, but they are also the "true and actual body and blood of Christ".

So either Jesus was made of bread and wine, or bread and wine transforms into actual flesh and blood. You can't have it both ways. And it appears you are doing your damnedest to keep it both ways because you know you're on a slippery slope here.

Indeed, transubstantiation is difficult for the natural mind (especially with its modern excessively skeptical bent) to grasp and clearly requires a great deal of faith

"...requires a great deal of faith". I can understand why.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by colbe

 

In the Eucharist—a supernatural transformation—a substantial change occurs WITHOUT accidental alteration. Thus, the properties of bread and wine continue after consecration, but their essence and substance cease to exist, replaced by the substance of the true and actual Body and Blood of Christ. It is this disjunction from the natural laws of physics which causes many to stumble (see John 6:60-69). See chart below.

You are contradicting yourself all over the place here. No, the bread and wine does not change - "the properties of bread and wine continue after consecration" - , but their "essence and substance cease to exist". Through transubstantiation, they actually do change. They are still bread and wine, but they are also the "true and actual body and blood of Christ".

So either Jesus was made of bread and wine, or bread and wine transforms into actual flesh and blood. You can't have it both ways. And it appears you are doing your xxx to keep it both ways because you know you're on a slippery slope here.

Indeed, transubstantiation is difficult for the natural mind (especially with its modern excessively skeptical bent) to grasp and clearly requires a great deal of faith

"...requires a great deal of faith". I can understand why.

edit on 8-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Dear brother,

You are correct, it "requires a great deal of faith." Ask God to help you believe. He will give you the grace.

How beautiful, the humility of God, to come to us this way. I think you understand now. The "appearance", the bread and wine "continue after the consecration but their essence and substance...through transubstantiation, they actually do change."

Except, the underlined is not right, we see the bread and wine but it is no longer bread and wine but totally Our Lord. The Eucharist is supernatural. Take another step toward God and believe in the Eucharist.

Revelation all fits, Satan wishes to destroy the faith. His man, the anti-Christ will attempt to abolish the most Holy Eucharist. This is the "abomination of Desolation" prophesied in Daniel. AfterInfinity, why would the anti-Christ do this do this if the most Holy Eucharist is not true?

When everything starts to happen, have the conviction, pray, I want to receive the Eucharist, help me God.


colbe

reply to post by colbe

Dear brother,

You are correct, it "requires a great deal of faith." Ask God to help you believe. He will give you the grace.

Perhaps this is where we differ in our standards, but I refuse to believe in something simply because it corroborates a system of emotional security I have become attached to, particularly when it defies the very reality I am familiar with and know has been substantiated in numerous ways.

How beautiful, the humility of God, to come to us this way. I think you understand now. The "appearance", the bread and wine "continue after the consecration but their essence and substance...through transubstantiation, they actually do change."

Allow me to make myself clear on this point. After the consecration of bread and wine by an ordained priest, if the chemicular composition and condition of the bread and wine remains unchanged, then its fundamental properties remain unchanged as well. The only transformation that can even be recognized in such a situation is the one that takes place in our mind, where we acknowledge the ritualistic significance in imbibing the flesh and blood of our deity - or in this instance, that deity's avatar. Anymore literal than that, and it borders on delusion.

Except, the underlined is not right, we see the bread and wine but it is no longer bread and wine but totally Our Lord. The Eucharist is supernatural. Take another step toward God and believe in the Eucharist.

I cannot. To do so would be to ignore every scientific principle that dominates the reality I know to be true. To just say, "Hey, it's supernatural. That means we can ignore what science tells us and just play make believe." This, to me, is an idiotic mechanism that oppresses intellectual development, undermining any and all practices of critical thinking by encouraging participants to ignore the facts in favor of what they want to believe.

Revelation all fits, Satan wishes to destroy the faith. His man, the anti-Christ will attempt to abolish the most Holy Eucharist. This is the "abomination of Desolation" prophesied in Daniel. AfterInfinity, why would the anti-Christ do this do this if the most Holy Eucharist is not true?

If this is the kind of intellectual understanding I can expect from faith, then I'm with Satan on this one. In response to your question: the same reason we abolished slavery. It is a morally corrupt practice that encourages the degradation of our fellow man. In the same vein, the Eucharist is a corrupt practice that encourages aversion to scientific methodology that would otherwise give us a true and verifiable understanding of our reality. Just as we no longer make a practice of sacrificing virgins to the gods, so the Eucharist is two steps shy of being obsolete and downright foolish. If you choose to represent your devotion by such a display, then that is your prerogative.

But don't insult the realm of critical investigation by implying that the Eucharist is in any way sanctioned by even the smallest modicum of logic.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by colbe

 

God is holy, He did not teach you how to mockVHB. The Eucharist is higher, supernatural, it comes from God, it is God Himself. Don't think in a human way of understanding concerning the Eucharist.

If the nature of the Eucharist cannot be questioned by the human mind, then how is it that it can be known as truth by the human mind? That which cannot be questioned is that which cannot be ascertained.

Good point, proves again God as/is our Supreme Sadistic JAILER, and refuses even to let us steal then manufacture the keys to get out of his awful kingdom of hate-dread. I am having a thought, Jesus was actually put here to show the human how to bypass this Demon Godform and get to the real one the true absolute ONE AND ONLY, where Panda Bears and Puppies prune and water the trees; Sheriff Andy Taylor's Aunt Bea Feeds the inmates/outmates/and the stun-gunned ONES (what just happened in that lifetime?).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


And as per the usual, you make no sense at all.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by colbe

 

Dear brother,

You are correct, it "requires a great deal of faith." Ask God to help you believe. He will give you the grace.

Perhaps this is where we differ in our standards, but I refuse to believe in something simply because it corroborates a system of emotional security I have become attached to, particularly when it defies the very reality I am familiar with and know has been substantiated in numerous ways.

How beautiful, the humility of God, to come to us this way. I think you understand now. The "appearance", the bread and wine "continue after the consecration but their essence and substance...through transubstantiation, they actually do change."

Allow me to make myself clear on this point. After the consecration of bread and wine by an ordained priest, if the chemicular composition and condition of the bread and wine remains unchanged, then its fundamental properties remain unchanged as well. The only transformation that can even be recognized in such a situation is the one that takes place in our mind, where we acknowledge the ritualistic significance in imbibing the flesh and blood of our deity - or in this instance, that deity's avatar. Anymore literal than that, and it borders on delusion.

Except, the underlined is not right, we see the bread and wine but it is no longer bread and wine but totally Our Lord. The Eucharist is supernatural. Take another step toward God and believe in the Eucharist.

I cannot. To do so would be to ignore every scientific principle that dominates the reality I know to be true. To just say, "Hey, it's supernatural. That means we can ignore what science tells us and just play make believe." This, to me, is an idiotic mechanism that oppresses intellectual development, undermining any and all practices of critical thinking by encouraging participants to ignore the facts in favor of what they want to believe.

Revelation all fits, Satan wishes to destroy the faith. His man, the anti-Christ will attempt to abolish the most Holy Eucharist. This is the "abomination of Desolation" prophesied in Daniel. AfterInfinity, why would the anti-Christ do this do this if the most Holy Eucharist is not true?

If this is the kind of intellectual understanding I can expect from faith, then I'm with Satan on this one. In response to your question: the same reason we abolished slavery. It is a morally corrupt practice that encourages the degradation of our fellow man. In the same vein, the Eucharist is a corrupt practice that encourages aversion to scientific methodology that would otherwise give us a true and verifiable understanding of our reality. Just as we no longer make a practice of sacrificing virgins to the gods, so the Eucharist is two steps shy of being obsolete and downright foolish. If you choose to represent your devotion by such a display, then that is your prerogative.

But don't insult the realm of critical investigation by implying that the Eucharist is in any way sanctioned by even the smallest modicum of logic.

edit on 8-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Why can't you keep my post together? Now I have to reply separately to your multiple separated comments, who has time. I have told others on the forum and they ignore except jigger acknowledged.

I'll comment on one. I would never put my faith in Science. Science has been proved to be wrong many times. It is hollow. I thought I was helping you understand that God can do anything. He is the source of all science and intelligence, of everything! Put your faith in Him, give Him your heart dear AI.

Now I am back t reading you call the Eucharist "corrupt."


p.s. I'll give you one example, Science said the "pill" was good. It has destroyed the family, causes men to
be sterile (got into the water system) and the "pill" cause cancer in women. It is an abortifacient! God said be
fruitful and multiply. Children are a blessing. It is God who decides life not us. One of the inventors of the "pill"
fifty years after its invention, condemns the "pill."

reply to post by colbe

Why can't you keep my post together? Now I have to reply separately to your multiple separated comments, who has time. I have told others on the forum and they ignore except jigger acknowledged.

So that you understand exactly what I am responding to. Otherwise, it gets confusing. I consider it worthwhile. Am I not worthwhile to you?

I'll comment on one. I would never put my faith in Science. Science has been proved to be wrong many times. It is hollow. I thought I was helping you understand that God can do anything. He is the source of all science and intelligence, of everything! Put your faith in Him, give Him your heart dear AI.

Science is hollow. Science, which has proven itself on countless occasions. Science, which is responsible for the very device you are using to post on this forum. If your appreciation for science is so lacking, you should be living in the mountains without running water or electricity. You should forsake every modern comfort ever invented by science. If you do not like science, then do not use it or any of its fruits.

Let's see how well you do with only your god and the wilderness to keep you alive.

p.s. I'll give you one example, Science said the "pill" was good. It has destroyed the family, causes men to
be sterile (got into the water system) and the "pill" cause cancer in women. It is an abortifacient! God said be
fruitful and multiply. Children are a blessing. It is God who decides life not us. One of the inventors of the "pill"
fifty years after its invention, condemns the "pill."

That is a pathetic example and you know it. One solitary example out of all the wonders that science has given us, without the help of any god. And you think a single pill outweighs all of that? Don't make me laugh. Try again, and be serious this time.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

And as per the usual, you make no sense at all.

You have to look at the words, the sentence structure, punctuation, verbs and the human behind the thoughtform.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

You have to look at the words, the sentence structure, punctuation, verbs and the human behind the thoughtform.

See, that last part there is the kind of crap that throws people off.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

You have to look at the words, the sentence structure, punctuation, verbs and the human behind the thoughtform.

See, that last part there is the kind of crap that throws people off.

edit on 9-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

...as it has thrown the throngs of well-meaning adherents (do not infer parasitic organisms)...I think, you, AfterInfinity, already know this...the subject of God/Source speaking to itself through its many splintered parts, and the splintered parts reformatting it (down through history as well - i.e. Bible)...which is also reformatted by other splintered parts (that reformatted the reformat)...can become the distracted domain of many hours of purely wasted forms of origami that produce monster versions of kernel truths...presuming a final determination (because the stage is always reached where the roundabout loses its appeal) there is a settlement (of sorts)...and you gotta wonder what sort of settlement could be reached after just having debarked an exercise in spinning...

What is the 'crap' that's thrown/throwing people off?

Å99

reply to post by akushla99


Stuff like what you just posted. It's amazing how someone with so much to say can be so incoherent.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

You have to look at the words, the sentence structure, punctuation, verbs and the human behind the thoughtform.

See, that last part there is the kind of crap that throws people off.

edit on 9-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You mean the HUMANBEING behind it or the fact it may be a very suspicious composite?

reply to post by vethumanbeing

You mean the HUMANBEING behind it?

Your logic processes feel so ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) that it's like you jump track after track after track, following no discernible pattern and making references that have no pertinence to the subject. Your train of thought is a train wreck.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99

 

Stuff like what you just posted. It's amazing how someone with so much to say can be so incoherent.

Then you may have basic problems in understanding words...which would bring into question what you could understand from just one paperfolded (origamied) book...perhaps you should learn to become more 'multi-lingual', and discriminatory in interpretation?!...and I can't help you do this...

Å99

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

You mean the HUMANBEING behind it?

Your logic processes feel so ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) that it's like you jump track after track after track, following no discernible pattern and making references that have no pertinence to the subject. Your train of thought is a train wreck.

Not at all logical, was not wired so. I jump all kinds of train of thought tracts. It is my nature. Why is pertinence a given--I could take the southern or northern route, same lame townships along the way, same old reiterative stories of "I hurt" "I am old and I hurt" and "do you remember when". Not the small beasty in the forest that attacks the wonderers off the main trail--resulting in bleeding ANKLE NIPS by an invisible negative force of will.

Originally posted by akushla99
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99

afterinfinity
Stuff like what you just posted. It's amazing how someone with so much to say can be so incoherent.

akushla99[i/]
Then you may have basic problems in understanding words...which would bring into question what you could understand from just one paperfolded (origamied) book...perhaps you should learn to become more 'multi-lingual', and discriminatory in interpretation?!...and I can't help you do this...

Someone told me today it is called stuffing 4 separate ideas into one sentence to get to a truth. (if aware of what is happening) onion reference as well as origami, ROTE disemblage knowledge, whereby with most sentences only one or two ideas are at most are confered. He calls it a ballet of thoughtform dance, and understands it completely, NOT having to understand the mechanism as that is the LEAST IMPORTANT.

edit on 9-5-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)