Anyone like me think theres nothing special about area-51?

reply to post by crazyewok

Bu what about adapting natural underground Cavens and cave complexes? I have been to a few public ones and have friends that have gone spelunking. These things can be HUGE. Would you think on say the military converting one. It wouldn't be hard to I don't think In fact when I was working at coca cola the site was built on a old chalk and natural caverns and they converted alot of them into warehouses. Also a few miles away the Gov did the same thing in world war two but converting them into a massive air raid shelter. And its impressive what they did in a very short time.

Well the cave needs power, ventilation, and probably communications to do anything other than warehouse. In the US, the phone company runs a wire to the edge of your property (technically called the point of demarcation.). So the phone company runs a wire to just what exactly if you are going to live in a cave. Some pole in the ground?

Then there is power, which is the same deal, though usually the power is run right to a feed on your building. The utility needs to know how much capacity for your facility, which is turn provides a clue to the use. Note in the US, they find marijuana grow houses strictly by the high power bills for the grow lamps, and follow up with thermal imaging to double check. Power use is a great clue.

You can hide the property owner with a shell company, but someone needs access to the property to run utilities and maintain them. Some time in the 90s there was a problem with Verizon and the Groom Lake phone system was down. The Verizon trouble ticket made it to the web someplace. [In the US, Verizon does a lot of government work, and I presume they shut their mouth, but certainly civilians know the trunk going to the base.] I haven't seen any military facility that isn't a mix of Defense Switched Network and the "phone company."

Also regarding hidden underground bases is the fact that in the UK which is small and hard to find anything people still keep stumbling on old hidden ammo dumps and big bomb shelters that are not on maps so somehow someone hid these.

War is hell. Paperwork gets lost in the chaos. But in actuality, paperwork gets lost in time of peace too. I just posted that rocket recovery at the TTR that nobody recalls what it was or when it was launched. Even the Clean Slate nuclear tests required interviewing former workers to get all the data needed to do a clean up.

And who is to say these caves can't be found with a gravity survey? Here is a gravity survey done to the east and north of the NTTR:
Gravity survey

The USGS does these surveys to encourage mining or drilling companies to bid on public land for exploration. Of course, if they find something, they can cover it up.

Anyway, my point is there is too much science out there to hide anything these days. The utilities companies can figure out your company schedule just by looking at the smart power meter. Cities do traffic studies, so the trips to your nowhere cave will show up. I even saw a vehicle counter box on Groom Lake Road once. Unless your cave facility has a dormitory, TDY personnel will be occupying nearby motels. The old Station House in Tonopah had a rate card for government employees due to the number of people getting rooms to then work at the range. The same goes for some Nellis training where they fill the motels in Beatty. There is a special log book for Nellis at the Stagecoach in Beatty.

Being a ghost these days is very difficult. You can't even get a motel room without showing ID post 9/11. The cops in Nevada routinely run plates at hotels and motels.

It is far easier to hide in plain sight. Blend in and nobody will notice you. Hide and you will be discovered.

Originally posted by micmerci
I wonder why military personnel with top secret security clearance ( able to handle nukes) are not high enough security level clearance to access Area 51?

same

Originally posted by FinalEquinox

Originally posted by micmerci
I wonder why military personnel with top secret security clearance ( able to handle nukes) are not high enough security level clearance to access Area 51?

same

Simple because THEY DO NOT NEED TO. A security clearance only validates you for what you need to know. Just cause you have top secret clearance for one job doesn't t mean you need to know what another people with other top secret clearance do unless it relates to your job.

A Nuclear missile technician does not need to know what a Drone technician does and vis versa.

And it isnt for any sinsiter reason., It just cuts down on the amount of damage that can be done if one person spills clasified material, defects or if any spy infiltrates ect

Originally posted by crazyewok

Originally posted by FinalEquinox

Originally posted by micmerci
I wonder why military personnel with top secret security clearance ( able to handle nukes) are not high enough security level clearance to access Area 51?

same

Simple because THEY DO NOT NEED TO. A security clearance only validates you for what you need to know. Just cause you have top secret clearance for one job doesn't t mean you need to know what another people with other top secret clearance do unless it relates to your job.

A Nuclear missile technician does not need to know what a Drone technician does and vis versa.

And it isnt for any sinsiter reason., It just cuts down on the amount of damage that can be done if one person spills clasified material, defects or if any spy infiltrates ect

edit on 28-4-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

And on the same token ... while I only have a Secret clearance with an SSBI done, I sure as hell wouldnt be at liberty to show someone what I do just because they have a Top Secret clearance. Its all about what your job is, what you need to know, and why you need to know.

Originally posted by crazyewok


Garlic you seem quite knowledgeable.

Gariac is the real deal and has the photography to prove it.

This is my favorite...

groom_lake_737_night_landing

Do you see the 737 in the image?

reply to post by Drunkenparrot


A 737 is about 150 arcseconds across based on the distance from Tikaboo. I used a 100mm lens, which works out to be about 13 arcseconds per pixel. I guess it might show up as a small blimp if it was still.

If you look at the best Groom Lake photographs from Tikaboo, about the smallest thing you can resolve is a telephone pole. That is about 2 to 2.5 arc seconds across. Unless you have a sherpa to haul your gear, you will be using a scope that is around 1.3 to 1.5 arcseconds of resolution. GIven the atmospheric degredation of the image, vibration due to wind, etc, 2 arc seconds is probably the limit. To keep the camera from being the limiting factor, you want about 3 pixels at least to get something to show up, so that works out to be around 0.7 arc seconds per pixel. That is a focal length around 1900mm, depending of course on sensor pixel pitch. Thus a 400mm lens or worse yet a 200mm plus 2x teleconverter won't cut it. You really need to bring a telescope.

You have to assume the base took all this into account when they stole Freedom Ridge and White Sides.

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Regarding your question about Area 52, according to good ol' Wikipedia, Tonopah Test Range is sometimes referred to as Area 52

reply to post by Florasaurus


Well there are better sources than the wiki. ;-)
Area 52 or area 54

reply to post by gariac


As a student I consider Wiki to be the best source in the world

Great site by the way, should serve as great distraction from my reports!!

The Nevada Test Range originally consisted of 30 'areas', numbered - strangely enough - 1 through 30. Later, at least four additional areas were added for Air Force testing and R&D. These were numbered 51 through 54. Area 52 is currently associated with the Tonopah Test Range. Areas 53 and 54 remain somewhat enigmatic, but are probably used for testing new sensor technology.

Just some interesting places around Area 51

maps.google.com...

reply to post by bryanm61


The various Nevada Test Site areas are not organized in any logical geographical order. They were not even established chronologically. For example, Area 15 was designated part of the test site before Area 13 was created. Some numbers are missing altogether.

Most NTS maps show Areas 1 through 12, Areas 14 through 20, Areas 23 and 23, and Areas 25 through 30. Areas 13 and 31 rarely appear and Area 51 only appears on maps dating between 1958 and 1978. The boundary of what would become Area 51 appears without a number on maps that show Watertown Airstrip at Groom Lake between 1955 and 1958.

Area 25, the Nuclear Rocket Development Area, was originally known as Areas 400 and 401. I don't recall ever seeing a map with Area 21 or 24. It is possible that they were never designated. Area 52, Tonopah Test Range, was not created as an Air Force test area; it was established to test ballistic characteristics of nuclear weapon shapes and other related technologies, and was also used for safety experiments (plutonium dispersal tests). Area 58 was the Central Nevada Test Area in Hot Creek Valley. The CNTA was to be used for underground testing of high-yield nuclear explosives, but was deactivated after only a single one-megaton shot.

I've often wondered this as well.

Surely if highly classified projects into alien technology where being conducted at area 51 we wouldn't even suspect its existence.

If we have retrieved alien technology and reverse engineered I think its happened at places completely unknown to the general populace or not heretofore suspected. Area 51 is to much a staple of popular culture now for anything connected to aliens to be going on there now if it ever was. Its possible the whole area 51 could have been concocted to focus attention of ufo investigators while the real stuff is happening elsewhere totally unknown to the public.

Originally posted by fadedface
I've often wondered this as well.

Surely if highly classified projects into alien technology where being conducted at area 51 we wouldn't even suspect its existence.

If we have retrieved alien technology and reverse engineered I think its happened at places completely unknown to the general populace or not heretofore suspected. Area 51 is to much a staple of popular culture now for anything connected to aliens to be going on there now if it ever was. Its possible the whole area 51 could have been concocted to focus attention of ufo investigators while the real stuff is happening elsewhere totally unknown to the public.

If I was to do something really really black or bordline illegal/Unethical I would'nt even base it in the USA.

The USA owns thousands of uninhabbited islands in the Pacific anlong with a number of other countrys.

Originally posted by crazyewokIf I was to do something really really black or bordline illegal/Unethical I would'nt even base it in the USA.

The USA owns thousands of uninhabbited islands in the Pacific anlong with a number of other countrys.

Exactly area 51 is far to obvious and over publicised for anything involved with aliens to still be going on there in my opinion. That doesn't mean of course that alien technology couldn't have been experimented upon there at somepoint but I would doubt its still happening to this day.

As you say there are lots of out of the way places where clandestine stuff could be happening so I don't see how anyone can really take area 51 that seriously anymore even though the location will always have an allure to many.

Area 51 never had anything to do with aliens, UFOS, or extraterrestrial technology. That is just a stupid urban legend. It is what it has always been, a test site for advanced aircraft and weapon systems as well as evaluation of the types of military equipment used by our adversaries.

Despite all the unfortunate publicity, he base is still quite active. It hasn't closed down, or moved, or become a decoy to distract people's attention. I know people who work there, and many who have worked there in the past. It remains a vital part of the Air Force's R&D infrastructure.

reply to post by crazyewok


Yes, I think if A51 had anything special, it was in the 50s-60s, now there is nothing special there.

Originally posted by micmerci
I wonder why military personnel with top secret security clearance ( able to handle nukes) are not high enough security level clearance to access Area 51?

For the same reason at my hospital I can access patient records, but I can not access patient records that I am not caring for. Your post shows your level of ignorance. Security clearance is not a vertical list, it's more like a branching tree. People with the same level of clearance can not access the same things, they can only access what is relevant to their position. Deny Ignorance.

reply to post by ImpactoR


During the 1950s, the airbase was strictly used for U-2 test and training operations. During the 1960s, test programs at Area 51 included development of the A-12 (and other variants of the Blackbird), the D-21 ramjet-powered drone, and some of the early evaluations of Soviet MiG-21 and MiG-17 fighter planes. SInce then there have been numerous projects involving stealth aircraft, unmanned vehicles, weapon systems, protoypes, and an expanded foreign aircraft evaluation program that continues to the present day. Area 51 remains a valued asset for USAF test programs.

reply to post by crazyewok


If on the FAR out chance there was ever a UFO or Aliens there, they would have been long moved by now. Area 51 may still serve as a great test bed for new classified aircraft designs, it is far to exposed these days to still have anything as classified as Aliens or Alien tech there. I mean even Russia gets to overfly the place these days.