Catholic rebel group is criticising new pope; ATS Catholics, what do you think?

Originally posted by stirling
There have been Jesuits in the background of countless earth changing events.
The book Mein Kampf...written buy a Jesuit.
Countless other examples of jesuits lurking in the back ground as mentors advisors, confidants, and instigatos.
History is replete with Jesuit inspired bloodbaths.
just sayin...could this humble pie be just another ploy?

i think so.

Here are a lot more, A -C, "countless" good Jesuits, some of them saints. And Wikipedia is a
secular source. To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. convert - John Henry Newman

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A

José de Acosta, Spanish historian; author of The Natural and Moral History of the Indies
Francois d'Aguillon, Belgian mathematician and physicist
Mateo Aimerich, Spanish philologist
Giulio Alenio, Italian missionary to China, called the "Confucius of the West"
Claude-Jean Allouez, French Jesuit, missionary to Wisconsin
Jean Joseph Marie Amiot, French missionary to China
Yves Marie André, French mathematician, philosopher, and essayist
José de Anchieta, Portuguese missionary in Brazil, founder of São Paulo, Brazil
Saint Modeste Andlauer, martyred in China
Juan Andres, prolific 18th-century Spanish writer
Saint Edmund Arrowsmith, one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales
Pedro Arrupe, 28th Superior General of the Society of Jesus, led the first rescue party in Hiroshima after the dropping of the atomic bomb
Xabier Arzalluz, Spanish Basque leader; later left the Society
Anthony Azzarto, American educator at Saint Peter's Preparatory High School in Jersey City, New Jersey

B

Jakob Balde, German latinist, court chaplain to Maximillian I
John Ballard, English Jesuit priest executed for being involved in an attempt to assassinate Queen Elizabeth I of England
Hans Urs von Balthasar, 20th-century theologian, Jesuit from 1928 to 1950 when he left the order to found a new community with Adrienne von Speyr
Ignacio Martin Baro, martyr in El Salvador
Augustin Barruel, French writer
Michel Baudouin, Superior-General of the Louisiana Mission (1749 to 1763)
Joseph Bayma, wrote "Molecular Mechanics" in 1866...
Augustin Bea, German cardinal
Johann Adam Schall von Bell, German missionary to China; astronomer
Saint Robert Bellarmine, Italian theologian and Doctor of the Church
Frans Jozef van Beeck, theologian
Joop Beek, Dutch and Indonesian educator and presidential political advisor
Saint John Berchmans, Jesuit Seminarian from Belgium
Jorge Mario Bergoglio, First Jesuit Pope. Inaugurated as Pope Francis by the Papal Conclave of 2013.
Prosper Bernard, a Canadian missionary to China, killed by the Japanese
Joaquin G. Bernas, Filipino Jesuit, constitutionalist, Dean Emeritus of the Ateneo Law School; former president of the Ateneo de Manila University, former Provincial Superior of the Philippine Province of the Society of Jesus
Daniel Berrigan, American political activist, poet, and professor at Fordham University
Giuseppe Biancani, a very early selenographer
Jacob Bidermann, theologian and playwright - inspired Johann Wolfgang Goethe

Pope Francis

Jacques de Billy, "pen-pal" of Pierre de Fermat, many early contributions in number theory.
Leopold Biwald, 18th-century Austrian physics professor and textbook author
Saint Andrew Bobola, Polish missionary, killed by the Cossacks
Saint Francis Borgia, third Superior General of the Society and exorcist
Ruđer Bošković, Serbo-Italian scientist, many contributions to physics and astronomy
Giovanni Botero, Italian thinker, discharged from the Society in 1579
Joachim Bouvet, early missionary to China and a leading member of the Figurist movement
Louis Bourdaloue, French preacher and orator
William S. Bowdern, exorcist who inspired the novel and film The Exorcist
Niklaus Brantschen, Swiss Jesuit, Zen master, author, and founder of the Lassalle-Institut
Saint Jean de Brebeuf, 17th-century French-Canadian missionary and martyr
Saint Alexander Briant, English martyr
Frank Brennan, Officer of the Order of Australia for services to Aboriginal Australians
Franz Brentano, philosopher who founded his own school of thought, the Brentano School...
Saint John de Brito, Portuguese martyr and missionary to Madura, India (present-day Tamil Nadu)
Claude Buffier, aimed to discover the ultimate principal of knowledge, praised by Voltaire

C

Niccolò Cabeo, many early contributions to physics
Saint Edmund Campion, English martyr
Saint Petrus Canisius, Dutch theologian, writer of the widely-used Little Catechism; Doctor of the Church
John Carroll, first bishop of the United States and founder of Georgetown University
Paolo Casati, Mathematician, supported Galileo..
John II Casimir Vasa, king of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth....

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Hey 3NL, thanks for contributing.

Do you think that ALL Christians believe Adam and Eve were real? IF that is the case, I am not aware of it. I thought, actually, that the majority of Christians realize the tales in the OT are metaphors, and not literal history.

I find the concept of original sin to be heinous and awful. That concept alone has damaged countless people, and if there is one thing I would eradicate from ALL HUMANITY, it is the idea that ANY of us is "born a sinner."

Originally posted by stirling
There have been Jesuits in the background of countless earth changing events.
The book Mein Kampf...written buy a Jesuit.
Countless other examples of jesuits lurking in the back ground as mentors advisors, confidants, and instigatos.
History is replete with Jesuit inspired bloodbaths.
just sayin...could this humble pie be just another ploy?

i think so.

Perhaps, it has something to do with the oath that Jesuits have supposedly taken.

My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.

You have been taught to plant insidiously the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces, states that were at peace, and to incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace; to take sides with the combatants and to act secretly with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the Church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means. You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from
www.ianpaisley.org...

reply to post by wildtimes


I can't speak for all Christians, but the church I grew up in taught it literally. I'm willing to bet that a large portion of Christians do take it literally, but not all.

We're definitely not born sinners, when's the last time you saw a baby do something bad or commit a crime? I've never seen it myself. The only thing that I would consider that makes us sinners is the world around us and the systems that are in place. The way I see it, the whole original sin thing is just the church passing its guilty conscience and sins onto its followers.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I've heard many stories about being indoctrinated with Adam and Eve being a true and literal story. Apparently, even within denominations and congregations, some believe it, and some do not.

I don't know much about this SSPX Catholic rebel group. Suppose I should look them up to see if I can determine whether they pimp Adam&Eve as real history.

SSPX falsely accused: "Resistance to what?"

4-24-2013

We present here in 3 parts a public conference given by Fr. Daniel Themann on April 16 at St. Mary's, Kansas, which answers some questions from the so-called "Resistance" concerning the SSPX's recent discussions with Rome.

Fr. Themann carefully outlines necessary principles for properly understanding the situation while contrasting examples of Archbishop Lefebvre during his own talks with the Holy See, particularly of what led up to the "May Protocol".

I just listened to all of part one. It was all introductory material about how to make "prudent" judgments about what is right in a give situation. Fine. Got it.

He said NOTHING about the apparent topic, which was that the SSPX has been falsly accused of resisting Rome.

Parts 2 and 3 are not yet available. But evidently, the SSPX is denying this allegation - so it remains to be seen whether the OP is accurate or not. Interesting.

Although during his introductory "teacher" speech, he did say "original sin" was his premise.

I disagree with it.

If I understand SSPX correctly, I think they basically don't like anything post Vatican II. Offers have been made for them to come into full communion with Rome, but I think they're not quite ready to "come home."

As far as original sin, there is some biblical evidence for this.

Even though the Church teaches original sin, I don't think you'd find a Catholic clergyman that would ever teach a dead baby goes to Hell.

There's a good statement from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding original sin:

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville


Not to rain of your parade. But the concept of original sin is Christian. Yes, Christian believe in original sin. But I would like to argue against this for fun. To cause people to look at the bible differently. These two links are from anti-missionary websites, but they offer a constructive view on the concept of original sin.

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul's statement, "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.

Whether man is a sinner by nature or not is immaterial. Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it" (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God's loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.

As you see from the sourced text and articles that are linked. The concept of original sin is Christian. However, Jews disagree and there seems to be a good case.
Source
Source 2
Source 3

reply to post by Phoenix267


Great perspective! The author seemed to have a Calvinistic view of original sinners, ie we're all wretched creatures and cannot do good without Christ. Anyone can do good without Christ, even non-theists. Mankind, though wounded by original sin, is not incapable of doing good!

The author is Jewish, so therefore does not believe Christ to be the Messiah. So, if there is no original sin, then we don't need a Savior either. So it makes sense that he doesn't believe it.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville


Yes, I know a lot about both Judaism and Christianity; as well how different their views on characters, verses, etc. I just like to debate it and expand my knowledge on religion. See why there are similarities and differences.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville


I've only just yesterday even heard of them. But, they (the SSPX) are denying that they are 'resisting' the Vatican's stance.

I'm still waiting on learning more.

reply to post by Phoenix267


I think the concept of "original sin" is, and was from the very beginning, about instilling shame, obedience, guilt, and submission.

I also think it's entirely inappropriate.

I thought this was an interesting biographical sketch about our new Pope. I hope that sharing this will help those who have concerns about Francis understand him better and form their opinions of him based on fact more so than MSM. Read it a decide for yourself if you are pro or con Pope Francis.

Who is Jorge Bergoglio?
Danced the tango, read The Betrothed four times

cal-catholic.com...

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


Thank you, sad-eyed-lady!
I'll check it out.

Originally posted by IsidoreOfSeville
reply to post by Phoenix267

 

Great perspective! The author seemed to have a Calvinistic view of original sinners, ie we're all wretched creatures and cannot do good without Christ. Anyone can do good without Christ, even non-theists. Mankind, though wounded by original sin, is not incapable of doing good!

The author is Jewish, so therefore does not believe Christ to be the Messiah. So, if there is no original sin, then we don't need a Savior either. So it makes sense that he doesn't believe it.

The underlined is the truth, thanks. Interesting, it was Calvin who came up with "man is completely depraved."
I thought it was Martin Luther.

Pray for Pope Francis, he has much to do and in a short period of time. Pope Francis is the Pope of the
3rd Secret of Fatima.

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Jesus:

When all begins to become clear to the cardinals, they will see the greatness of their call and the overwhelming responsibility that has fallen to them. They will see the state of the world, so ready to rip apart at the seams. They will see a Church, bringing in a full harvest in some continents and having little to show in others. They will see the Muslim threat, ever growing and always menacing.

Yet, they will see more. They will see my Sacred Heart, filled with love yet so many times rejected, even by my Church. Into my heart they must enter. Only there will they see and understand. No one should sit upon the Chair of Peter unless he is close to my heart. I have not called an intellectual. I have not called a charming personality. I want one kind of pope – a pope whose heart burns with mine, whose wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit, and whose papacy will follow my direction. ...

Originally posted by colbe
Pray for Pope Francis, he has much to do and in a short period of time. Pope Francis is the Pope of the
3rd Secret of Fatima.

+ + +

Jesus:

When all begins to become clear to the cardinals, they will see the greatness of their call and the overwhelming responsibility that has fallen to them. They will see the state of the world, so ready to rip apart at the seams. They will see a Church, bringing in a full harvest in some continents and having little to show in others. They will see the Muslim threat, ever growing and always menacing.

Yet, they will see more. They will see my Sacred Heart, filled with love yet so many times rejected, even by my Church. Into my heart they must enter. Only there will they see and understand. No one should sit upon the Chair of Peter unless he is close to my heart. I have not called an intellectual. I have not called a charming personality. I want one kind of pope – a pope whose heart burns with mine, whose wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit, and whose papacy will follow my direction. ...

I meant to include the link...

Read the messages up on the Home page. They explain much...

www.locutions.org...