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Keep It Simple, Stupid: Using Logic to Look at Tragedy

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posted on Apr, 23 2013 @ 09:41 PM
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Such materials have been posted quite a bit and I've seen them. Some where laughable, others were, well frankly, rather heartless and ignorant. Most were removed because they included gore photos.




posted on Apr, 23 2013 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by BubbaJoe
 



made me think you thought the injuried and dead were fake.


I thought that stating that the injured and dead were fake, was a straw man used to make true sceptics of the boston bombings look bad.

Same with the "Holographic Plane" thing on 9/11

I'm pretty sure I stated as much.



posted on Apr, 23 2013 @ 09:54 PM
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KISS is the uncouth way to express Occams razor. The less unnecessary assumptions you make, the greater probability that your argument will remain reasonable.

I think of it like this. In your own lives, how often do you make mistakes? How hard is it to deceive those around you - your boss, your siblings, parents, wife, children?? Now magnify that thousands of times, and you arrive at a complex scenario that if pulled off without a hitch, defies all predictability.

The people who throw accusations of conspiracy around aren't very deep thinkers. Their assumptions are many, and quite grand. First, they imagine that theres some enormous conspiracy, which implies some agenda, where killing people in a dramatic manner would prove beneficial. Second, such motivation implies a malevolence redolent of movie villains. Apparently, there are hundreds of people in prominent positions (or perhaps all of them? :wow
who don't give a lick about the lives of strangers. Not only do they collude with others in misleading the public about these attacks, but they must also have an impressive dearth of humanistic feelings, like compassion, generosity, love; or for that matter, the oppressive feeling of guilt.

Lets take a time out: in your own life, how important has the emotion of love, compassion, and generosity been? What does being good mean to you? Does being good possess intrinsic meaning?? When you do something you know is bad, yet make an effort to suppress the thought of it, are you able to do it, or does it creep up on you, regardless of your efforts to ignore it?

Psychologically speaking, people who assume conspiracy whenever something like this happens are the most cynical people imaginable. They probably aren't even aware of how blotchy their consideration of mankind is.

So on these two points, the complexity of orchestrating terror attacks, which involves controlling so many variables, selecting the pawns who will take the fall (which involves a ridiculous degree of supervision of their activity), which to enumerate some of what that means, it means finding people with radicalized views, in this case, apparent connections to extremist Islamic organizations in chechnya; then, this person has to be interested in carrying out an attack, which in this case involved him building bombs at his house. Then, you would have to arrange their being present at the marathon on the day of the planned attack. Then, just to boot, since conspiracies of these sorts are always so impeccably executed, one of them goes on twitter to speak glibly about the attacks (yet they weren't involved; an enormous coincidence that they show such indifference to people getting murdered!); when the older brother steals a car, he brags to the driver (who has nothing to gain by making the claim) that he was responsible for the Boston Marathon bombings. And Oh, these patsies also happen to possess firearms, and also have no problem shooting at the police in car chases - or killing other people in the process!

The amount of assumptions, just in analyzing the material evidence itself, is enormous. If you choose to ignore the cogency of the evidence, you still have to bridge it by making a whole new set of assumptions: that the police, witnesses, media, government, etc, are all colluding together to sell the public a lie. And they collude with such efficiency that we hear nothing about it.

And finally, for what purpose??? You and I both know that the no gun law bills are going to be passed as a result of this, there will be no passage of martial law bills. 2 months from now the public would have forgotten it, and the status quo will have remained the same as before the attacks.

So why? Why the compulsion to think conspiracy?



posted on Apr, 23 2013 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 



So why? Why the compulsion to think conspiracy?


Because Governments lie more often than they tell the truth.

And Governments are more often authoritarian than they are benevolent.

Conspiracy is a fact of life.... Welcome to the Human Race.



posted on Apr, 23 2013 @ 10:25 PM
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The best way to handle tragic events conspiracies is to wait it out, let everything take its course and then when everything is done and over with, than come out with the conspiracies and hard evidence. As soon as the bombing happened everyone jumped on the conspiracy band wagon it made a lot of people look stupid. Its so discredited now because people jumped the gun.



posted on Apr, 23 2013 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by solizer
 



As soon as the bombing happened everyone jumped on the conspiracy band wagon it made a lot of people look stupid. Its so discredited now because people jumped the gun.


What is discredited?



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by solizer
 



As soon as the bombing happened everyone jumped on the conspiracy band wagon it made a lot of people look stupid. Its so discredited now because people jumped the gun.


What is discredited?


The boston bombing



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 02:45 AM
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I have a question.

Is this the smoking gun the MSM has been referring to, as the younger brother "placing the back back down"?



And, is this where Tamerlan's pack was laying? If so, who's that woman and was she hurt?




posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by solizer
 



The boston bombing


Discredited as in... it didn't take place?

What exactly are you saying?



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by Hefficide
 



I don't think it was offered as a summary of the entire debate at all. To the contrary, I think it was offered as an example of how logical debates can be derailed by absurd arguments being introduced as a means of muddying the waters.


I suppose that is fair to say....

However it still seems somewhat disingenuous to me to typify the 9/11 argument with the holographic planes scenario.


I mentioned the "holographic planes" simply as an example of what I consider to be illogical.

There were several threads a couple years ago about this very subject. The assertion was that the planes were holographs and the buildings were demolished with explosives only. That no planes existed to hit the towers, they were all holograms.

I find the argument about "fake prosthetics" to be of the same ilk. It makes no sense. Why go to the trouble of hiring actors to fake injuries, which is fraught with the chance of being caught, when it would be so much easier to actually plant a bomb and let the injuries be real?

As to who planted the bomb, or who is ultimately behind 911, that is not a discussion I feel qualified to have. I do not know. I am simply addressing the inherent flaws in assuming the bombings were staged with actors.



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by smyleegrl
 


Exactly, it is one thing to discuss who is ultimately responsible for the bombing (that is a great discussion to have in fact). It is something different to claim it was all fake with actors (it makes discussing any of it seem loony).

Real bombs went off, real people died and got maimed, who is responsible is what is up for debate.


Raist



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 04:24 PM
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Totally agree with the OP and this:


Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by smyleegrl
 


Exactly, it is one thing to discuss who is ultimately responsible for the bombing (that is a great discussion to have in fact). It is something different to claim it was all fake with actors (it makes discussing any of it seem loony).

Real bombs went off, real people died and got maimed, who is responsible is what is up for debate.


Raist


It doesn't make any kind of sense to use actors.
I'd love to know who started it because it definitely didn't start from ATS.



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
KISS is the uncouth way to express Occams razor. The less unnecessary assumptions you make, the greater probability that your argument will remain reasonable.

I think of it like this. In your own lives, how often do you make mistakes? How hard is it to deceive those around you - your boss, your siblings, parents, wife, children?? Now magnify that thousands of times, and you arrive at a complex scenario that if pulled off without a hitch, defies all predictability.

The people who throw accusations of conspiracy around aren't very deep thinkers. Their assumptions are many, and quite grand. First, they imagine that theres some enormous conspiracy, which implies some agenda, where killing people in a dramatic manner would prove beneficial. Second, such motivation implies a malevolence redolent of movie villains. Apparently, there are hundreds of people in prominent positions (or perhaps all of them? :wow
who don't give a lick about the lives of strangers. Not only do they collude with others in misleading the public about these attacks, but they must also have an impressive dearth of humanistic feelings, like compassion, generosity, love; or for that matter, the oppressive feeling of



I agree with the sentiment of this thread but one thought i had in support of the Boston people not being actors is that positions of power attract a larger number of psycopaths and sociopaths. There could well be people like this in various factions behind the scenes who think nothing of sacrificing a few people. To me a compulsion 'not to ever think conspiracy makes the least sense but it's important theories are based on logical reasoning and reasonable evidence.

With the Boston bombings too many people have taken things like an out of focus photo or an early report of something as undeniable proof, then gone onto make further assumptions based on it. Unless you can verify 100/ a report, a photo, etc. you cannot logically build further theories around it.
edit on 24-4-2013 by DrHammondStoat because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by Oceanborn
 


It may not have started on ATS (no proof just yet), but there are certainly several on ATS claiming actors were used. I linked some threads back a page or so. It is crazy that people are claiming that.

Raist



posted on Apr, 24 2013 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by Oceanborn
 


Here is another great example of what these people are saying.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Legs blown off yet NO chair damage and salt pots, plastic cups still on table... Impossibility !!"

I don't get it, I really don't.

Raist



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by Raist
 


I sure did saw those claims.



I don't get it, I really don't.


I know the feeling. It doesn't make sense but we have also to keep in mind what most of us have learned about several things. We're being played 24/7 by some twisted people so the mind starts racing,trying to truly understand what's happening. If this whole thing started with good intentions then it's one of the unfortunate examples of what happens when we don't stay disciplined.
We should also stay disciplined in this thread: Those claims don't make sense indeed but let's not forget that they don't harm anybody either. We actually harm others more in our daily lives with ordinary("define ordinary" I know,I know...) behaviour. Cheating while in a relationship for example.

This incident brought on the surface some ugly sites. Several people were wishing for the younger brother's death (no trial,no nothing) and some of them were even saying he should be taken in Gitmo and be sodomized....I'd personally ask "What if he's innocent?" but you know what? Nevermind that. Let's say things went exactly as we've been told. Are those things that I mentioned earlier the way to go? Be a "bad guy" to the "bad guy"? Then there will be no "good guys" left.

I could say more but I don't wanna get more tiring than I've already been. Some sad things from every angle,that's the only certain.


I almost forgot. Don't know how much it matters but from what I've seen so far,ATSers were late on the whole "fake victims" theory. Later on I'll check one last thing but I'm already getting pretty positive that it didn't start here and I also think I know from where it started.
edit on 25-4-2013 by Oceanborn because: To add



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide

Such materials have been posted quite a bit and I've seen them. Some where laughable, others were, well frankly, rather heartless and ignorant. Most were removed because they included gore photos.


Most were removed because the mods didn't agree with the material, not because of the gore photos.

The owner of this site made a thread honoring the "Cowboy" rescuer, tending to the double amputee, pinching his arteries closed, blood everywhere.

So, please.. don't even.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 01:17 PM
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I can only speak for myself in saying, the moment I saw the pictures of the actor victims I knew the scene was fake.

I could, and have at great length, detail my observations with photographic evidence supported by training and experience in EMS. I could link other findings which prove the patsy bombers were photoshopped, the amputee actor's Facebook is photoshopped, I could show you a picture of a bottle of fake blood next to the actors, I could talk about my internet getting shut off for reasons unknown the day I posted my research, but I don't need to.

I trust my experience and training over a "news reporter" any day.

The problem with most of you regurgitating mainstream scripts is that you have no experience in EMS. Its like asking a plumber their opinion on physics. They are just going to parrot the average consensus because they have no experience in the field.



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by Mykah
 


Why would they fake the victims? We know they don't give a rat's ass about the common people so why not do it for real?
One more question. If they did fake it,why did they choose to have just three people killed? There's road accidents with more victims than that. Why didn't they make more people being dead?



posted on Apr, 25 2013 @ 01:58 PM
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The problem with most of you regurgitating mainstream scripts is that you have no experience in EMS. Its like asking a plumber their opinion on physics. They are just going to parrot the average consensus because they have no experience in the field.
reply to post by Mykah
 


You're right, I don't have any EMS training. I've seen some horrific accidents and things throughout my life, but that's not the same thing at all.

I read your post detailing your observations, and (I'm not trying to be rude, please understand) I didn't find it very convincing. After reading cavalryscouts thread on the same subject, I really think you might be overthinking things. Now that's not necessarily bad or wrong, mind you. I just believe you're convinced that the photos show actors, and that doesn't make sense to me.

Why would they use actors? We know who the victims are, we can follow their names in the news media, we see their families and friends. If "whomever" used actors....that's a heck of a lot of people in on the whole scheme. Unnecessary complications. If you want a false flag, why only kill three?

I don't know who is responsible for the bombing....but I think the bombs were real and real people suffered and died that day.



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