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Destroying the ego

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posted on May, 4 2013 @ 06:07 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 






Nothing. No appearance is appearing in deep sleep - not that I am aware of.


I have new worlds openning up in front of me in deep sleep.




posted on May, 4 2013 @ 06:09 AM
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Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 






Nothing. No appearance is appearing in deep sleep - not that I am aware of.


I have new worlds openning up in front of me in deep sleep.

When you dream you see. When no image is appearing there is nothing to see.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 06:12 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


I see real worlds. real places, forms and landscapes.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 06:16 AM
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Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


I see real worlds. real places, forms and landscapes.


In deep sleep?? Or when dreaming??



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 06:18 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Both!



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Both!

If you do not enter the state of 'no things' appearing you must be very, very tired.
When do you get any peace?
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 06:31 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 





If you do not enter the state of 'no things' appearing you must be very, very tired.
When do you get any peace?


When i stop thinking. I said i enter those places and when im in them there is no thought.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma


Okay, but if the soul rejects the vehicle, leaving to other vehicles to control, program, use, abuse, or whatever, then the soul cannot be said to be "operating" it.

It is then just neglecting it.

This is where I percieve inner conflicts happen- because matter has consciousness... (not necessarily self consciousness though). The physical body has consciousness, and when neglected and abused, it gets resentful, fearful, angry..... the avoidance of merging with the body ends up making the body consciousness a very negative thing indeed!

It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy (no pun was intended, but it works), in a sense, and illustrates how our beliefs and ideas form reality. Beliving your ego is negative/bad makes it so!

(sorry, you probably read my other post before I tried to shorten it)
edit on 4-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)


I am puzzled by your line of reasoning in this post. It seems to me that you are talking about something quite different to my understanding of self and ego.

Why would someone neglect or abuse their body? In order to function in this world, it is expedient to give adequate care and nourishment to the body and mind. Anyone on a path which involves detaching from ego would know this very basic survival imperative as well as anyone else.

The soul does not reject the body in the ego-diminished state, rather it takes full control of it. When the ego dominates, the soul is beholden to the wants and desires of the mind and senses. The idea is to reverse this condition so that the body and mind are in tune with the soul, so in effect there is complete harmony in the whole being.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by Bluesma
A very blunt but easy to grasp example- if i let go of my american values , then when going to the US, I would take off my top at the beach. I would be arrested and that would be a big hassle. (there is a scene like this in the movie "Martha Marcy May Marlene" in which a girl tries to readjust to the common american society again after escaping a cult-)



It helps to know the culture and ways of a specific country but to identify oneself with a label - 'American' - it will cause suffering. Like when your father implied that you are no longer considered 'American' - you cried for days.


Ah, there, apparently you did misunderstand, or are pretending to.

The message that was carried by my fathers comment implied that, no matter if I was able to retain the same basic structure of behavior, thought and value that is effective in American society, it would not matter- I was being seen as a foreigner; an outsider; barbarian; (any of the terms used throughout time and cultures to signify "other".)
The people I had ties with before and that particular collective were "closing the gates" symbolically, after 9/11. Their fear was putting down a wall which separated themselves and the world, and in a very localized way- if you are outside the parameters of the nation at that time you will be interacted with differently.

This was sad, yes, and I cried at the time. I had expected to return back there eventually.
But contrary to what you seem to be trying to avoid, I do not try to run from the experience of sadness. It is just an emotional experience, and it is actually the same thing as joy- just the other face of it. In that sadness lies also the joy that relationship and peoples were part of in other times.

The actual experience was temporary, passing... like any change it had a death and a rebirth. I got used to the idea of this new experience. But I did not try to destroy that earlier structure of thought, I did not need to. I just chose to add to it, to expand it. Though a new template had to be created first before the weaving, because the french culture is really in direct opposition to the american culture in many ways.

How can I help you understand this? It is the same idea as in karma... in which the physical world creates duality, and the conscious awareness goes through a process of experiencing each side of things, before then reintegrating them together.... thesis, antithesis, synthesis......all opposites are experienced one side at a time by the conscious awareness, then synthesized. Like Sadness and Joy, for example! The conscious awareness experiences one, then the other, then eventually an experience which is a synthesis of the two into one.

This temporary experience of separation is part of process, continual on going creative process!
That is what I experience anyway.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon


I am puzzled by your line of reasoning in this post. It seems to me that you are talking about something quite different to my understanding of self and ego.

Why would someone neglect or abuse their body? In order to function in this world, it is expedient to give adequate care and nourishment to the body and mind. Anyone on a path which involves detaching from ego would know this very basic survival imperative as well as anyone else.

The soul does not reject the body in the ego-diminished state, rather it takes full control of it. When the ego dominates, the soul is beholden to the wants and desires of the mind and senses. The idea is to reverse this condition so that the body and mind are in tune with the soul, so in effect there is complete harmony in the whole being.





This is what my argument is to the "remove all thought structure" concept- how can you inter act in the world with others if you have no thought? You cannot talk, you cannot have any conception of food or water to communicate with another, or to intend to get (nor of anything else).

You and I speak of "taking control" of making conscious willed choices- the concept I was opposing claims to make choices is to be "egotistical".

There are cases of people doing this- they are in a catatonic state, or coma, or extremely detached from the body and it's desires, urges, instincts and all that "me" stuff. They are often not only extremely dependant for survival, but often victims of all sorts of abuse precisely because there is no presence to say "no" to anything.

Perhaps it is just because I am female that this is easier to grasp, but I cannot see the usefulness (or enlightenedness) in no longer having any thought for my children ; or their needs. Nor any value to my body continuing to live, when I have other beings dependant upon it on this level of existence! It sounds like a male fantasy of escape from all responsibility and relation
)
edit on 4-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma

The message that was carried by my fathers comment implied that, no matter if I was able to retain the same basic structure of behavior, thought and value that is effective in American society, it would not matter- I was being seen as a foreigner; an outsider; barbarian; (any of the terms used throughout time and cultures to signify "other".)
The people I had ties with before and that particular collective were "closing the gates" symbolically, after 9/11. Their fear was putting down a wall which separated themselves and the world, and in a very localized way- if you are outside the parameters of the nation at that time you will be interacted with differently.



If you live in a world of foreigners, outsiders and barbarians then that is the world that is your reality. These labels are common place - they divide you from others. It makes one feel like one must get someone's label before one can smile at them or help them when you see someone anyone struggle.
I don't live in a world of division - I live where life is.

It is all about fear. When one is fearful one contracts - it makes one feel small - it makes the idea of being in a group feel like a good idea - it longs to fit in. Only when the fear goes will one feel safe - when the energy is relaxed it does not have to fit in - it fills the whole space.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma


This is what my argument is to the "remove all thought structure" concept- how can you inter act in the world with others if you have no thought? You cannot talk, you cannot have any conception of food or water to communicate with another, or to intend to get (nor of anything else).

You and I speak of "taking control" of making conscious willed choices- the concept I was opposing claims to make choices is to be "egotistical".

There are cases of people doing this- they are in a catatonic state, or coma, or extremely detached from the body and it's desires, urges, instincts and all that "me" stuff. They are often not only extremely dependant for survival, but often victims of all sorts of abuse precisely because there is no presence to say "no" to anything.

Perhaps it is just because I am female that this is easier to grasp, but I cannot see the usefulness (or enlightenedness) in no longer having any thought for my children ; or their needs. Nor any value to my body continuing to live, when I have other beings dependant upon it on this level of existence! It sounds like a male fantasy of escape from all responsibility and relation
)
edit on 4-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)


Thoughts happen. And life is happening. But you think you are doing it.
Life does not stop happening when you realize that it is all being done.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by Bluesma

The message that was carried by my fathers comment implied that, no matter if I was able to retain the same basic structure of behavior, thought and value that is effective in American society, it would not matter- I was being seen as a foreigner; an outsider; barbarian; (any of the terms used throughout time and cultures to signify "other".)
The people I had ties with before and that particular collective were "closing the gates" symbolically, after 9/11. Their fear was putting down a wall which separated themselves and the world, and in a very localized way- if you are outside the parameters of the nation at that time you will be interacted with differently.



If you live in a world of foreigners, outsiders and barbarians then that is the world that is your reality. These labels are common place - they divide you from others. It makes one feel like one must get someone's label before one can smile at them or help them when you see someone anyone struggle.
I don't live in a world of division - I live where life is.

It is all about fear. When one is fearful one contracts - it makes one feel small - it makes the idea of being in a group feel like a good idea - it longs to fit in. Only when the fear goes will one feel safe - when the energy is relaxed it does not have to fit in - it fills the whole space.


Yes, but you here purposefully ignoring what I am talking about.

I am talking about the physical world- the objective one. It is one of many realities I am existing in simultaneously.

When this body is in that prison cell, sure- I can be in a world which has no prison walls, no separation between this that and the other; no separation between I and other, no time, no space...

When I was five, I simply did this when my body was raped by adult men. I understand that some people, if they haven't experienced that are emotionally provoked to imagine this... but people who have experienced it don't- they know that one can escape that in the moment.

But as useful that can be, it is also useful to learn to stay present and experiencing the world of self and other in other times. Part of it being that the physical body is stuck in the physical world, where there are things like prisons, starvation, beatings, rapes, killing, disease, etc.

To bring vibration to this level and form a physical body, then simply retire from it to the levels beyond physical is sort of like having children, then running off to be "free" of them. Why'd you create it then?

-and no I don't see things the same way as far as being part of a collective.
It is a natural drive built into my physical body, evolved over thousands of years, as social instincts which increase my bodies chances of survival. That's all. "Fear" isn't a bad thing- it is simply the indicator of potential threat or danger in the environment. It is part of the instinctive physiological reactions evolved for a purpose.

Leaving your body to run entirely on automatic does not stop fear from arising in it's blood, it only allows your conscious awareness to go into denial and detachment from it.



edit on 4-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma


There are cases of people doing this- they are in a catatonic state, or coma, or extremely detached from the body and it's desires, urges, instincts and all that "me" stuff. They are often not only extremely dependant for survival, but often victims of all sorts of abuse precisely because there is no presence to say "no" to anything.


These conditions have no connection to the spiritual practice of ego detachment. Life goes on as normal. We have families, love our children, work for a living, and so forth. If anything, there is an increase in the sense of personal responsibility and the need to attend to one's duties.

Desiring to escape from the world and its responsibilities is yet more ego, not less.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by mysticnoon
 


Then you and I have perceptions which are more similar on the concept.

I agree with you, to an extent- I may not use the same vocabulary, but I perceive an experience which is similar.
I wouldn't say ego detachment, I use the terms "detachment from results" or not limiting the perception to the superficial.

But the teaching that it requires having NO thought, NO concepts, no intentions, no choices, no individual will,

That it requires denying the existence of the physical world and others,

is what I do not agree with.


edit on 4-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma

It is a natural drive built into my physical body, evolved over thousands of years, as social instincts which increase my bodies chances of survival. That's all. "Fear" isn't a bad thing- it is simply the indicator of potential threat or danger in the environment. It is part of the instinctive physiological reactions evolved for a purpose.

Leaving your body to run entirely on automatic does not stop fear from arising in it's blood, it only allows your conscious awareness to go into denial and detachment from it.

edit on 4-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)


Fear in the moment because something that is present is about to harm it is natural. It is natural to move out of the way of a truck.
But 'potential threats' come from ideas and beliefs and thoughts - can they be trusted? If one is living in a world of 'I must protect myself from 'next' - or 'what might happen' or 'what happened before' then one is not living in love one is living in fear.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I have never said that thoughts, ideas or beliefs do not arise - they are seen for what they are.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Fear in the moment because something that is present is about to harm it is natural. It is natural to move out of the way of a truck.
But 'potential threats' come from ideas and beliefs. If one is living in a world of 'I must protect myself from 'next' - or 'what might happen' or 'what happened before' then one is not living in love one is living in fear.


Well, that is another subject altogether- mentally produced emotions. Those become a problem when minds are NOT grounded in the physical world. If that is your experience of your body, you would do good to take some riding lessons! (though other disciplines can serve as a way to develop skills in this too). You learn rather quickly to master thought- because if you let your mind wander away from this reality in here and now, you end up creating things you don't want.

Like if you look ahead and imagine what could go wrong (the horse could spook and throw me, or refuse to jump at the last moment....) the body will react with adrenaline immediately to that inner vision. Horses (being prey animals) have the ability to pick up the scent of adrenaline, and react in mirror- they have a surge of adrenaline, and then you get- it spooks, rears, bucks, bolts, refuses to jump, etc.
It's a great way to learn to not let mind wander! -But also part of why I do not support this idea of detaching oneself from the real world to the point of not paying attention to the facts.

And once again though- in order to master or have influence upon anything, you must own it first!
If you are refusing to get on that horse, you will not be able to master it, if you are refusing to claim your mind, you will not master it.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma

And once again though- in order to master or have influence upon anything, you must own it first!
If you are refusing to get on that horse, you will not be able to master it, if you are refusing to claim your mind, you will not master it.


I see each thought arise. I get the joke of thought, concepts, ideas and beliefs. It is a source of amusement.
No need to fight with them or defend them or attach to them because none are true.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by Bluesma

And once again though- in order to master or have influence upon anything, you must own it first!
If you are refusing to get on that horse, you will not be able to master it, if you are refusing to claim your mind, you will not master it.


I see each thought arise. I will not let it lead me astray. I get the joke of thought, concepts, ideas and beliefs. It is a source of amusement.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


Lead you astray?
From where? What is your destination?

At least you have come around to understanding a little bit of what I say when I say) I am here to have fun! To enjoy! To experience! I have no reason to try to "escape" to other realities I am there too.
I have no reason to deny this experience. I have gone to the depths and heigths and found- nothing.

Then, there was nothing else to do but CREATE! Enjoy! No more dismal "individualization is pain" crap (leave that to the the teens- and you, since you still like to assert that). Individualization is just an experience consciousness is having- of individualization! It does not nullify wholeness it is focus of attention upon a specific part of the whole- so what? What is the big danger and demon?

The physical body, it's emotions, it's brain and mind and the soul, all that is just layers upon layers, all existing simultaneously, and you can focus on any of it you like.

But if you continue to tell me I need to reject some layer of it, I will say no thank you. As you have seen.



posted on May, 4 2013 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by Bluesma

And once again though- in order to master or have influence upon anything, you must own it first!
If you are refusing to get on that horse, you will not be able to master it, if you are refusing to claim your mind, you will not master it.


I see each thought arise. I will not let it lead me astray. I get the joke of thought, concepts, ideas and beliefs. It is a source of amusement.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


Lead you astray?
From where? What is your destination?




Lead me to believe I am something I am not.



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