Near-death experience is not a figment

reply to post by VegHead


The amount we are exposed to during death and the amount we are exposed to during dreams differs greatly, that's why.

Hopefully these links won't get censored:

Link 1

Basically, everytime you go to sleep, a part of your brain produces this chemical and the product that we endure is our dreams.

'___' is exerted by the body only during the REM part of sleep as well as when the body is under enough stress to cause death. That is why when people almost die they talk about hallucinations and seeing #, they are actually just tripping the hell out on '___' - T.Labonte

Link 2

Strassman even reproduced mystical and religious experiences with the psychedelic drug. Skeptics can say, then, that this drug is merely a hallucinogen. It makes you see things that aren't there. And it explains thousands of historical accounts of paranormal phenomena in one fell swoop.

On the other hand, the experiments provided new and startling information. Volunteers described bizarre visions of alien life forms - even subjects that wanted and fully expected to see angels and fairies saw other-worldly beings. It provokes the question: is '___' like a door to an alternate reality? Does it facilitate lucid dreams, the out-of-body state and glimpses into other dimensions?

Link 3

Dr. Rick Strassman conducted FDA- and DEA-approved clinical research at the University of New Mexico in the 1990's where he injected sixty volunteers with '___', a compound found in the human body. Strassman found that the volunteers often had experiences similar to near-death experiences (NDEs).

Believe what you want. NDEs are, at the very least, influenced by hallucinations. Like I said, if someone slips you a hallucinogen and you begin tripping without knowing you've been drugged, you are likely going to think of it as a genuine experience.

Originally posted by CaticusMaximus

Perhaps *YOU* cannot comprehend it... but that doesnt mean *others* cannot. You are using inductive reasoning, and its leading you to false conclusions.

Right, because people who haven't died know all about what death is, right? Please do tell me, what exactly happened when you died? Oh wait, you're not dead. Just so we're clear, a near death experience and actually dying are not the same thing. The only way for a person to experience death and then share death with us would be to die, spend a decent amount of time being dead, and magically come back to life.

Allow me to rephrase: we cannot possibly KNOW death, but death will eventually reveal itself to all of us. Now, whether what follows death is the Christian afterlife, the Greek afterlife, a vast nothingness, or Lil' Wayne rapping about badonkadonks and all of the money he has amassed throughout the years, we cannot possibly know. We can take leaps of faith in life, but all leaps of faith put us in bad faith. What cannot be argued is that we do not, and cannot, KNOW.

reply to post by slugger9787


Repost...

Weird.

Sorry for the space-wasting.

~ Wandering Scribe

In my opinion.

Near death is not death.

Thus, I don't think it can have any bearing on our beliefs pertaining to the afterlife.

I think that NDEs do exist, I know several people who have had them, but I don't think that the are accurate representations of what happens to us when we die. (Think about all of those who do not have NDEs after being clinically dead)

I do not believe in any types of heaven or hell, and I believe that when people claim to visit these places, they are just a reflection of their cultural upbringing. (Hence the atheist from who suddenly is religious because they got a warm fuzzy feeling and assumed it must have been the heaven of their country.Notice that when a person in the US has a NDE, they rarely wake up and become Jewish.)

That is my view on it anyways.

reply to post by Murgatroid


This has been debunked. It turns out the parents were "coaching" the story out of the kid and he really doesn't remember much of anything. The parents get rich because of it and a bunch of suckers eat it up. Not proof.

Originally posted by smilesmcgee
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

This has been debunked. It turns out the parents were "coaching" the story out of the kid and he really doesn't remember much of anything. The parents get rich because of it and a bunch of suckers eat it up. Not proof.

That's a shame, but thanks for sharing this info. Do you have any links about how it was debunked? Were the parents caught red-handed somehow? Or did they confess? Thanks!

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


Thank you very much for your response and the links!

I agree that, certainly, there can be a chemical aspect to the process of dying, and that these chemicals can cause hallucinations. I've heard of the lab-induced hallucinations, specifically the one you provided the links on, but I don't find them as convincing as you (and a lot of other people) do. The laboratory experiments don't produce the same profound life-changing effects as an NDE, nor the same depth or consistency of vision.

Also, I don't think the research of lab-induced NDEs is as strong or compelling what is being suggested by many. (I took out the possible offending substance from this text and replaced it with XXX to try to keep with the rules of posting here. I hope this is OK

Strassman advanced the theory that a massive release of XXX from the pineal gland prior to death or near-death was the cause of the near-death experience phenomenon. Only two of his test subjects reported NDE-like aural or visual hallucinations, although many reported feeling as though they had entered a state similar to the classical NDE. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. All subjects in the study were also very experienced users of XXX and/or other psychedelic/entheogenic agents. Some speculators consider that if subjects without prior knowledge on the effects of XXX had been used during the experiment, more volunteers would have reported NDE. Critics have argued that neurobiological models often fail to explain NDEs that result from close brushes with death, where the brain does not actually suffer physical trauma, such as a near-miss automobile accident. Such events may however have neurobiological effects caused by stress.

source: en.wikipedia.org...

So only two test subjects reported anything close to an NDE, but even those weren't classical NDE experiences. They had explanations for it, but this is far from any real evidence that NDEs are XXX-induced hallucinations.

Also, this line of debunking doesn't even touch on what I think is some of the most persuasive arguments for the NDE being more than a hallucination -- the OBEs where people are able to see and verify things they could not otherwise see or know. The woman that saw the red shoe on the rooftop of the hospital comes to mind, as an example. Also blind people actually having sight during and OBE - many documented cases of that phenomenon, and also very compelling. To me, this is evidence that their consciousness was able to physically separate from the body, and the implication being that it could "survive" outside of the body.

The problem with this evidence, though is that it tends to be anecdotal/retrospective.... such verifiable observations that occur while there is evidence that someone is dead happen rarely. As much as I think these stories are amazing and as much as they may convince those that experience it first hand and those who are there to verify what they person "saw" during their OBE, they are ultimately still just rare individual experiences. They are not something that can realistically be reproduced in great numbers for a repeatable and "statistically meaningful" study. So what I considered to be some of the most compelling evidence for life after death are really "just" rare anecdotes. Skeptics will almost always be able to claim that someone was lying - that the NDEr as well as the hospital personal (or whomever verified what was seen and heard while the patient was dead) were just seeking attention/fame/money.

Thanks again for the links. I know we won't likely come to an agreement on all of this, but I respect your position and I am enjoying the conversation. I do agree that we cannot absolutely know anything for certain right now.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


I share that view with you, even if I'm curious in regards to more complex NDEs, those I think they are the result of other yet to be understood mental phenomena.

reply to post by VegHead


If you learn a bit about hypnosis and you will understand that expectations, context and indoctrination/culture has a central place on the creation of mental phenomena. There are indeed some NDE that go beyond simple explanations but they are a minority and other phenomena may be involved, from altered capacities to process external data to memory recall.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


you
can say that again.

For those of you who have not had a NDE,
I will pray, especially for DestroyDestroyDestroy
to have one in the next three days.
I will pray for that for him. come hell or high water.

The Monroe Institute proved through some controlled experiments and statistical analysis using scientific methodology way back in the 70s that consciousness can survive outside of the physical body and doesn't need the physical body to exist. I'm always perplexed at how people debate this subject so often yet the information is available and has been for decades. Why are people still arguing about this?

Thomas Campbell is your friend. Learn something.

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by Wandering Scribe

 

you
can say that again.

For those of you who have not had a NDE,
I will pray, especially for DestroyDestroyDestroy
to have one in the next three days.
I will pray for that for him. come hell or high water.

Pretty extreme don't you think? Why stop there? It seems like you are ready to wish a full death upon someone who has opposed NDE experiences with a legitimate chemical-based reason.

And as far as the Michael Newton books are concerned, they were practically my bibles for a year when they came out (prior to internet usage and much reading afterward) Loved the ideas of those books and had a lot of hope for that particular afterlife scenario. At the same time, there was the familiar subtle bell going off telling me that, if this WAS accurate, certainly it would have revolutionized all of mankind's notions of the afterlife and this man would be world famous where instead, he slipped further and further into obscurity (and presumed wealth of the profits obtained by the book sales). Sadly, it appears he's just another snake oil vendor, although it was a tasty beverage before the aftertaste kicked in.

Originally posted by 0bserver1
If this ever will be proven, my question would be " how is it possible that my soul or spirit is bound to this body , why can't I switch between bodies ?"

I do not think this will ever be proven. My reason to believe in continuation of life is based on my personal experiences and observations. I really don't need anybody to prove something like that and make it 'official'. There is nothing more ridiculous than a media article or a news video that 'officially' proclaims that there is or there is no life after death. No single person here is entitled to know anything about what is outside this small ball of blue marble and outside this life. This is the only thing about it that has been proven over thousands of years. But it doesn't mean we cannot learn something new while trying to find the answers.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


It hasn't been scientifically proven that Dee eM Tee is produced in your pineal gland, even Rick Strassman said so in his book The Spirit Molecule. Secondly, simply labeling Dee eM Tee as hallucinatory is a rather prevential attitude. When Dee eM Tee is supposedly released in your brain, it is spread through your cerebro-spinal fluid, so therefore a beating heart would not be necessary to experience the final trip. Dee eM Tee isn't the experience itself, it is the catalyst to the experience. Stop mistaking the means to an end for the actual end. Since when is it illegal to talk about endogenous substances that are present in every single organ in your body and inside every living thing? I doubt ATS would frown on talking about endogenous Dee eM Tee. Smoking or injecting or drinking synthetic Dee eM Tee is different because that's "illegal" in the US. Yes natural substances that occur in every living plant and animal are now illegal. You're all breaking the law right now. it's illegal to live.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
Don't know if we can really discuss NDEs without violating ATS T&C's. The reason why people all have similar experiences during NDEs is that they are all tripping on the same hallucinogen, '___', which is flooded into the brain from the pineal gland during the death process.

Some food for thought, your brain stays active for a few minutes after your heart stops. A '___' trip usually lasts around 10 minutes.

Again, however, we cannot discuss the effects of mind altering drugs on ATS. A near death experience is simply a very powerful hallucination.

So right!

People will believe anything these days. What tosh!

reply to post by 0bserver1


I have shared my NDE here before. I had a severed aorta and should of died in 4 minutes but it took 10 hours and 2 different hospitals before they placed a graft in me. The top heart doctor in Chicago said "Only God could of pulled this off but I can't put it in the books".He believed my heaven story and so did any medical staff that knew my story being part of my recovery.

I only want to comment on why people would want to disbunk such an experience. I don't understand why someone wouldn't want the love, joy and peace that the after life offers. Why try to disprove something so wonderful? Can a person love the pain and suffering we encounter in life more than being free from it? Does the idea that we are not our own God and really have no control over life bother some? Is it the nature of man to self glorify only giving importance to what the human mind can understand? Or is it human pride that prevents one from submitting to something greater than themselves to get there?

Again, I just don't understand why someone wouldn't want an eternity of true love and joy over a short life that includes so much pain and suffering. Rejecting the most and holding onto the least.

I live in pain and have much suffering in life over family matters but I remain in a good nature knowing that one day I will leave this world and leave all the BS behind like nothing bad ever happened. Nothing bad is allowed in Heaven and that includes thoughts and memories. For now I hold one grain of sand of life in my hand. One day I will trade that grain for a desert endlessly filled with life that our brain cannot even begin to imagine.

One of my favorite TV programs is I Survived...and back (not to be confused with "I survived") on the biography channel. It deals with people that have been clinically dead and experienced a NDE. It is a fascinating program. There is no way it is just a chemical thing. There was a guy that was able to leave his body (many report this) and watch the EMTs working on him and upon coming to was able to tell each member where they sat and what they did to him, as well as relating that the defibulator broke and a new one was brought in. There was a woman who was able to leave her body and go down to the hospital snack bar and observe her family and hear their discussions such that when she returned (some have a choice, others are forced to go back) to her body she recited it word for word to her family. Finally, there was a man who watched the doctors operate from above his body. His eyes had been taped shut and there was a divided sheet between his head and his body so there is no way he could have seen the doctors working on him. When he came to he asked the Dr. "Why were you pointing at my incision with your elbow, like a chicken wing?" The Dr. was stunned but admitted that is how he pointed to parts of the body so as to avoid the risk of infection.

Not only that, but you can see the way these experiences have changed each person. Almost without exception they come back with an increased compassion for their fellow man and most state they are no longer afraid of dying and, in fact, actually look forward to it (because the envelope of love was so great outside the body). There were numerous people that saw deceased loved ones, some saw them in a younger and more vibrant state and needed pictures to identify them. Many see angel-like beings. A few went to a place that was hellish. But all were transformed. I feel sorry for people who don't believe in NDEs. The evidence is overwhelming, u just got to have faith.

reply to post by slugger9787


Well, I guess I'm lucky that prayer accomplishes nothing
Hallucinations and religious experiences often go hand in hand. Many Native American cultures have a rite of passage better known to some as a vision quest. During a vision quest, a young man leaves his tribe to spend a few days in the wilderness, alone. During this time, he is required to fast, and will eventually succumb to hallucinations out of hunger. Superstition leads him to put faith in these visions, but that does not make them real. Australian aboriginals have a similar rite of passage, as do the Inuit.

The Bwiti in Africa indulge in the Iboga plant because of its hallucinogenic properties, many Native American cultures near Arizona also indulge in Peyote for its psychoactive effects.

Just because you've seen things doesn't make them real, sorry.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


The core issue for atheism
is their inability to admit
there is an intelligence
greater than themselves,
stemming from one of the
seven deadly: pride.

Has not been 72 hours yet.

reply to post by Avoiceinthewilderness


The problem I have with your NDE story and many others is the mention of a "heaven". Heaven heavily implies that only western Christian religious beliefs are valid.

Its my opinion that if there is any truth at all to the spiritual side of existence is that it would be far more universal and inclusive rather than just a subset of humanity knowing the truth of the matter.

Since NDE reports vary so widely by regional cultural influences it does brings the validity of them into question. I can't say I know the truth of the matter more than anybody else and I may very well be wrong, but regional differences in NDE reports do affect their credibility, IMO.