A Baby's Right to Choose

Ohhh what's this? KJ seems to have yet another good point!

When I say that women should be more responsible, and they should "watch what they let come in" (Snicker), you all remark that it's the man's fault too! But when we try to speak of our stance on abortion, you say we have no uterus so we can't say anything about it! Interesting...very interesting.

Originally posted by The Last Patriot
Sorry Sminkey, but you didn't help.

- I'm sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean 'help'?

All that knee-jerk anger, not a single distinction.

- LMAO. What 'anger'?

Clearly you are unaware that I live somewhere where we are not wrapped up in idiotic pseudo-religious bigotted opinions. You are entitled to your view and I mine.

If you are so against abortion, don't have one. Simple as that but that's as far as it goes. You have no right to make other people abide by your own view on the matter.

......and if you really fail to understand the distinction between a birthed living person and the unborn undeveloped that is your problem.

I wasn't talking about the methods, I was talking about the reasons, and the excuses for those reasons.

- No, you were simply trying to 'use' the nazi Holocaust to make a ridiculous parallel.

In fact, your example only proved my point.

- Frankly I have no doubt that no matter what anyone said to you on this matter you would twist it to suit your own version of reality.

[edit on 4-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Clearly you are unaware that I live somewhere where we are not wrapped up in idiotic pseudo-religious bigotted opinions. You are entitled to your view and I mine.

You are so lucky...I'm surrounded by all these idiots!

[edit on 11/4/2004 by Lecky]

Originally posted by Lecky

Clearly you are unaware that I live somewhere where we are not wrapped up in idiotic pseudo-religious bigotted opinions. You are entitled to your view and I mine.

You are so lucky...I'm surrounded by all these idiots!

[edit on 11/4/2004 by Lecky]

Hey I am surrounded too, but guess what they don't bother me at all, I guess it has to do with the fact that all I had to do is look at them and they will shot their mouths.

Originally posted by Lecky
You are so lucky...I'm surrounded by all these idiots!

- You have my sympathies.

Zealotry is rarely attractive what guise it comes in.

Same BS, different issue, varying degrees of hysterical intensity.

....just trying to force others subscribe to their point of view. Sad really.

posted by Marg6043

Hey I am surrounded too, but guess what they don't bother me at all, I guess it has to do with the fact that all I had to do is look at them and they will shot their mouths.

- Marg my friend, your avatar has me thinking people stand open-mouthed when they see you!

posted by deeprivergal

I don't believe in abortion. However, I do believe that there are some circumstances as to where it may be necessary, i.e. incest, rape etc.

- I think whatever one's view most folks go along with that.

Abortion SHOULD NOT be used as a form of birth control.

- .....and I see few who would disgree with this either.

95% of abortions are done as a means for birth control. I find this statistic very sad.

- I don't agree with this statement. I mean clearly one can say it is a form of 'birth control' but I do not believe most abortions are about this per se.

I believe there are almost always many reasons why people would chose the trauma of undergoing an abortion.

I don't think it is as simple as just another type of birth control.





[edit on 4-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

I don't believe in abortion. However, I do believe that there are some circumstances as to where it may be necessary, i.e. incest, rape etc.

Abortion SHOULD NOT be used as a form of birth control.

95% of abortions are done as a means for birth control. I find this statistic very sad.

Originally posted by deeprivergal
I don't believe in abortion. However, I do believe that there are some circumstances as to where it may be necessary, i.e. incest, rape etc.

Abortion SHOULD NOT be used as a form of birth control.

95% of abortions are done as a means for birth control. I find this statistic very sad.

I agree with you 100 percent but some of those statistic have been over inflated by religious fundamentalist.

Now here in the south the pregancy rate on young girls under the age of 18 is very high so I see how the statistic would be apply too but it has to do also to a particular ethnic group.

I was going to stay out of this topic since everytime I open my mouth on a controversial subect I always end up insulting someone. But hey screw it.

Like many have said ABORTION should never be used as a form of birth control, and I also don't agree with Late term ABORTIONS unless the mother's health is in jeopardy. Having said that if a woman feels she needs to have an ABORTION then it's a choice she should be allowed to make, and it's one she needs to live with. Not you, not me, only she lives with the consequences of her actions.

There needs to be better sex education programs for teenagers in schools as well as easily affordable methods of contraception (birth control pills, condoms, etc...). Hell I think birth control should be free to anyone who wants them. Face the facts, people will have sex anyways, so don't try to promote abstinence because frankly it ain't happening, so better education is needed.

You religious fundamentalists have to stop trying to impose your views on others and let people live in peace, ban ABORTION, ban GAY MARRIAGE, pretty soon it'll be ban OFFENSIVE MUSIC, ban OFFENSIVE BOOKS, ban OFFENSIVE movies, etc etc...... If somebody's mother should have had an abortion it should have been yours (religious fundamentalists) so you don't pass your brand of stupid and intolerance to the next generation.



[edit on 4-11-2004 by Ocelot]

Originally posted by marg6043
Now here in the south the pregancy rate on young girls under the age of 18 is very high so I see how the statistic would be apply too but it has to do also to a particular ethnic group.

I am in the south and I am one of those statistics. I got pregnant at 16. Why? Because I was stupid. Abortion was not an option for me. My son will be 9 next month, and I couldn't imagine a life without him.

Strangely enough my son probably saved me and my husband from a really bad life. We were involved in some crazy stuff. Getting pregnant sure straightened us up.

Originally posted by deeprivergal

Strangely enough my son probably saved me and my husband from a really bad life. We were involved in some crazy stuff. Getting pregnant sure straightened us up.

See you where mature for your age and you probably had support from family and you have a husband.

You make the right decision.

But more of the majority of young girls I have seen are from poor families and the father is nowhere to be found. Most of those grils made a mistake no the are no stupid they just made a mistake.

Most of the young girls future is doom with not help form family and not help from society.

They make a choice, and they should have the right to do it.

The government is turning its back to the fact that girls and boys are going to experiment with sex, regarless of what the church tells them, and education and acess to birth control should be there for them, not in the church or on faith base programs.

Your are a brave girl and you made the right desicion.

[edit on 083030p://444 by marg6043]

as the proud owner of a uterus, I want to make it quite clear that I am against abortion. Two bumper stickers come to mind.

"All those that are for abortion have already been born" and
"Contraception stops at conception"

The part of the debate that Marg tries to exclude is that without Mr Happy there can be no abortion and the very exculsive uterus would not have any inhabitants. Yet women believe that abortion is simply their decision. It takes two to create a baby. If a woman decides to have the baby she can force the man to pay child support for the child untill he/she is grown up, however if she choosesnot to have the baby its simply her choice.

Honestly the weakness of your uterus argument is that there are many ways that a woman can prevent getting pregnant, the most simple being - NO - not untill you bring a condom. How difficult is that? I am bored to tears with the whole "the pill makes me fat" but I am still going to do it without protection. The morning after pill if you are too careless or pathetic to do something PRIOR to the act.

Using the exception - rape , severe deformity etc, to support rape is a tenious argument at best. Abortion is destroying living organism ... don't start the debate about when is the fetus an independent living organism , kids live at home untill their late teens. and NO child could survive on its own. So should we be allowed to abort babies after birth in case we decide they aren't really viable propositions. Oh wait we couldn't do that they are so cute and cuddly.

Honestly I want a good reason why its ok to kill the unborn. ATS has numerous threads on this topic.

I'm wondering when those like pinkey will figure out that their mouths are betraying themselves with all the bigotry.

I find it funny that many in here have one of two opinions, if not both.

1) Religious people are idiots, keeping in mind that regardless of what you believe we are all in the same category.

2) Passing the buck that we could allow something we see as wrong and just not do it. This is stupid in the extreme.

This most certainly is like rape. If you disagree with it, don't do it, but quit trying to impose your femanist views on me.

Bigots.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
as the proud owner of a uterus, I want to make it quite clear that I am against abortion. Two bumper stickers come to mind.

I love the way you started your post. It�s very sad that most of the young girls that get with a child under eighteen do not have a responsible partner to take care of their unborn child.

Our society wants to bring the religious agenda into this, but the truth is that education and birth control should be there to help without making the young guilty.

I had a student in junior high that one day she came to me and ask me if I know where she could get birth control.

She was thirteen, now I told her that she should talk to her mother do to her age, she said that her mother "would kill her is she knew" she was sexually active already. Now that tell you that even when the girl was already active she was trying to find a way, but been afraid was more powerful than the trust of a parent plus her mother was �having problems� of her own.

She was not the only one in the class already sexually active. Now how long will take for them to get with child.

I tell you three years later that particular girl dropped out and not children, two of the other girls were drop outs and with children not husbands.

I blame society for no Providing help before the problem start, for making these girls afraid and for making such and issue as your uterus tabu.

Young girls will have sex and are having sex younger that most people wants to realized not matter what and young boys will go alone with it.

By the way we also had a girl with child by her grandfather, and she was forced to full term because religious beliefs by the family, she was taken out of school and we did not see her again.

When you work with young teens as in schools you get to see the reality of what is going on with our youth and how the " system" tries to hide it.




[edit on 093030p://444 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
I blame society for no Providing help before the problem start, for making these girls afraid and for making such and issue as your uterus tabu.

Oh yeah!! It's allll sociieeetttyyyy's fault!!! Blame everyone else! Blame the government!!!!!! It's all their fault! It's not the stupid parents who never payed any attention to their kids! It's not the bratty kid who snuck out of her window to go meet some guy she barely knows at 2 AM. It's SURELY not the parents who never educated their kids on these matters! No, that's mean Herman! Seriously, people need to take responsibility! Killing the baby-IS-NOT-THE-ANSWER!

Young girls will have sex and are having sex younger that most people wants to realized not matter what and young boys will go alone with it.

And you don't see THIS as the problem!? Why do you think people of the 50's and 60's were better at waiting until an old enough age? Any ideas? Could it be that the parents were taking better care of them? Could it be they weren't being allowed to just run wild all they wanted? You're a smart girl, THINK ABOUT IT!


[edit on 093030p://444 by marg6043]

[Edited on 4-11-2004 by Herman]

I agree with many aspects of what Herman says - parents have decided to abdicate their responsibilities regarding parenting of their children - Ritalin is another prime example of this. However society as a whole must take responsibility for the "sexual devolution" amongst teens and pre-teens. Movies and TV and music today has sex as its focus, especially amongst teens. Teen magazines push the concept of sexual preparedness and sexiness to their teens. Where are the 13 year olds I used to know who still played innocent games and thought holding hands was kinda reisque? And no I am not 60. In the country where I was born the majority of 13 year old girls still consider themselves kids, and none would even consider stripping as a career choice. The main problem arises that kids are being raised by Hollywood. And parents are paying Hollywood and Aaron Spelling to teach their children how they should live.

However, returning to the topic - abortion is not the choice of teens , they get pregnant and become teen moms. Abortion is the preferred choices of late teens and early twenties who feel they aren't ready for a family.

Abortion is not contraception really it is murder of the helpless.

As for the question of boys/men and pregnancy - parents should raise their boys (1) not to sleep with girls who will sleep with anybody/everybody - Wait for the right one (celibacy is not a shame), (2) to respect women and (3) to take responsibility for screwing up - but how can they do that when they won't even take responsibility for raising kids.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
I'm wondering when those like pinkey will figure out that their mouths are betraying themselves with all the bigotry.

- So you think if I disagree with you that's bigotry? LMAO!

Q find it funny that many in here have one of two opinions, if not both.

1) Religious people are idiots, keeping in mind that regardless of what you believe we are all in the same category.

- I don't think I have actually said anyone is an 'idiot' here. But it's very interesting you drew that conclusion.

2) Passing the buck that we could allow something we see as wrong and just not do it. This is stupid in the extreme.

- No, it's about the limits of your 'morality' and your imagined 'right' to force others to your point of view.

This most certainly is like rape.

- No it is not. It is not like any of these risible 'parallels' you guys keep attempting to dream up.

Abortion isn't like anything except abortion.

If you disagree with it, don't do it, but quit trying to impose your femanist views on me. Bigots.

- This is plainly and simply absurd.



[edit on 4-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Herman, you were not even born in the 50s and 60s, so wait until you have some children and go to puberty with them.

if you have never had a child, don't tell me when life begins.

I have stated my opinion on this several times before. As a woman and a mother of two children, whom I chose to bring into this world. I can tell you that at 2 weeks pregnant and 4 weeks pregnant there is no life, no baby in your belly. Our bodies were designed to cast off these cells during the early stages of pregnancy whenever something is wrong with the design...hence a miscarriage. As a mother, I feel life begins when you feel that first movement of the fetus. That is the sign that says "hey I'm here now, you feel me" until then I don't consider the fetus as a child or a life.

I don't agree with late term abortions unless medically necessary to save the life of the mother....but prior to the "magical" moment as I like to call it, abortion should be the right of a woman to choose.

I also have a problem with people who oppose abortions, can any of them tell me how unwanted children they have adopted? How many neglected and abused children they have taken in to their homes?

Most likely the answer is none. Until all the children that are up for adoption are living with pro-lifers, I don't want to their opinions and morals shoved down my throat.

Wise words....

While I'd much rather see a child adopted than aborted, I recognize that until it's born, it's part of the woman's body, and unless it's got some of my DNA in there, I've got no say in the matter. The woman is the one who will have to live with the consequences, and it is her decision to weigh that choice, imho....

Abortion is murder? Get real. I just don't get how people think they have the right to legislate and dictate what a woman does with her body. If she doesn't want to carry a pregnancy to term, then who the hell are you to tell her she has to. The conservatives in this country make me sick, bashing abortion, but when these kids grow up in poverty, they bash them for getting on the welfare system. I had a wart removed a few years ago, did I murder the wart, or did I remove something from my body that I didn't want there to begin with. Raw fact of the the matter, there are going to be 20 billion people on this planet within our life time, 20 billion large mammals on a global ecosystem that can't really support half that number. All this hooplah about celebacy is rubbish, fact is folks are going to have sex. The urge is irresistable, and is a basic function of biology. We have the medical technology to make abortion a reasonable and feasible means to not only stem the human overpopulation, but to offer women a chance to choose not to bring a child into an unsuitable environment, and you creeps want to call her a murderer for that? Abortion has been demonized by religous bible swarping fanatics, but the reality is, if a woman doesn't want to have a child then it isn't any of your bible thumping business. I'd much rather see a woman abort her pregnancy than to bring one into generally fatherless resentment and poverty.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Clearly you are unaware that I live somewhere where we are not wrapped up in idiotic pseudo-religious bigotted opinions.

- So you think if I disagree with you that's bigotry? LMAO!

No, but the previous post was. Did you forget you said that?

- I don't think I have actually said anyone is an 'idiot' here. But it's very interesting you drew that conclusion.

Did I draw that conclussion from thin air? Not really. Let's look at the post from a little earlier below

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by Lecky
You are so lucky...I'm surrounded by all these idiots!

- You have my sympathies.

Zealotry is rarely attractive what guise it comes in.

Same BS, different issue, varying degrees of hysterical intensity.

....just trying to force others subscribe to their point of view. Sad really.

- No, it's about the limits of your 'morality' and your imagined 'right' to force others to your point of view.

This is tied in with the last, but forcing others to your point of view is kind of what government is all about. Obviously rape is not such a bad thing in other places of the world. Should we take that country over, and "force" our views on others to stem the tide of rape, that would be considered a good thing.

I really see no difference with this debate.

This most certainly is like rape.

- No it is not. It is not like any of these risible 'parallels' you guys keep attempting to dream up.

If you disagree with it, don't do it, but quit trying to impose your femanist views on me. Bigots.

- This is plainly and simply absurd.

That's kind of the same thing I think about your rational. The idea that you have the universe figured out and the Christians are full of it is about the most arrogant thing you could come up with.

But please people, keep wanting to force us to live in a country that maintains barbaric actions, and government funded at that.

It'll change some day.

[edit on 4-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]