Predestined for Glorification

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posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 04:37 PM
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We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.




posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by newnature
 

a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance.
I realize this is popular among nondenominational Christianity but is not based on the Bible but on the writings of the Reformers like Luther and Calvin.
Justification by Faith means we have a thing that Paul in the New Testament terms, Faith, which is the new thing in Christianity that fills the same sort of role that the old written Mosaic Law did in the former system of the Old Testament.
As fulfilling the law made you justified as in being allowed to remain "in the camp" in the old system, living by Faith justifies those in the new "camp" of Christ.
It is not this idea that you believe that Jesus died for you, then a heavenly court is convened to pronounce judgment on you and you receive a verdict of innocence with that conclusion being irrevocable because it now has status as "God's word".
This sort of thinking is the result of the lingering effects of a long period of Dark Ages and a very repressive and judgmental system that influenced the minds of those early translators of the first Greek NT texts to hit the open market.
edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 05:02 PM
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Perhaps you should have quoted the New Testament source for your title statement.
I presume your starting-point is 1 Corinthians ch2 v7;
"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification".



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by newnature
 

Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved?
No, since the idea of being saved, in the New Testament is based on a political concept of what being "saved" meant. It is safety that for example, a city or region would have as a result of someone like let's say an Emperor puts you under his protection, committing resources, military or otherwise, to insure the health and well being of the inhabitants.
We have such a spiritual kingdom under the protection of God, ruled by Jesus, that we can become the citizens of and be then "saved", that we know of in regular terms as, the church.
So when Paul or other writers in the NT say, saved, they mean those who have been gathered in, by their belief in it, into this kingdom, where to be justified, meaning remaining a member in good standing, we live by Faith, the law of the new covenant, metaphorically speaking, written on our hearts.



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by newnature
 

Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son?
Neither.
You have set up a false dichotomy to sidestep the right answer, which is that according to the New Testament, we are all predestined and that we are sanctified to good works.
We are not somehow declared "holy" by virtue of Jesus' past good works, or any of these other schemes to avoid the reality that you are saved, meaning have joined the company of believers, to live a righteous life as befitting a people set apart to be holy.
We are not just given a vicarious "holiness" that isn't really ours, where God is fooled into thinking that we really are living correctly.
We have to actually live as sanctified Christians unto holiness, to have the hope of glorification.
Paul said he was constantly striving for that goal, while you seem to be preaching that we already have it and can now relax and take our time being holy whenever it feels good, or maybe never, it really doesn't matter, since we have all that time in heaven where we can get perfected.
edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by newnature
 

God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future.
First of all, you have yet to establish that the Bible ever talks about God giving anyone "righteousness".
Second, this "feeling sorry" is called repentance and is in the New Testament, 57 times, and is the only way people are forgiven, and it is never said that you are forgiven because you claim that jesus paid for your sins.
So, it looks like to me you are setting people up to go to hell if they were to believe you, where you ignore true biblical forgiveness and substitute an purely man made philosophy of salvation that cancels out the real one.
edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 05:35 PM
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so if everything is predestined, then there are some unfortunate individuals who will, because they were not predestined to get on the jesus wagon, end up having to spend eternity in hell. yep, that sounds about right. There is this all powerful, all knowing, all controling thing that will cause the eternal suffering of many beings. the more people try to show how great this concept of a great and powerful and gracious being, the more they show it to be a cold hearted, non caring bully



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe
so if everything is predestined, then there are some unfortunate individuals who will, because they were not predestined to get on the jesus wagon, end up having to spend eternity in hell. yep, that sounds about right. There is this all powerful, all knowing, all controling thing that will cause the eternal suffering of many beings. the more people try to show how great this concept of a great and powerful and gracious being, the more they show it to be a cold hearted, non caring bully


You can blame Paul for most of that. I've noticed that, if you throw out everything Paul wrote, the New Testament is actually pretty inclusive. Otherwise, you have to acknowledge that the Christian god will send every remote tribesman to hell just for being out of contact with Christians.

I wouldn't be surprised if Christian scholars someday work out that Paul was the anti-Christ.



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe
so if everything is predestined, then there are some unfortunate individuals who will, because they were not predestined to get on the jesus wagon, end up having to spend eternity in hell. yep, that sounds about right. There is this all powerful, all knowing, all controling thing that will cause the eternal suffering of many beings. the more people try to show how great this concept of a great and powerful and gracious being, the more they show it to be a cold hearted, non caring bully


You can blame Paul for most of that. I've noticed that, if you throw out everything Paul wrote, the New Testament is actually pretty inclusive. Otherwise, you have to acknowledge that the Christian god will send every remote tribesman to hell just for being out of contact with Christians.

I wouldn't be surprised if Christian scholars someday work out that Paul was the anti-Christ.


And there inlies the problem. You now say throw out part of the bible because it doesn't fit your concept. Why not then be able to add some of the nostic writings (if that is the right term) and what will be the next bit that you disagree wih and therefore be thrown out?



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe
so if everything is predestined, then there are some unfortunate individuals who will, because they were not predestined to get on the jesus wagon, end up having to spend eternity in hell. yep, that sounds about right. There is this all powerful, all knowing, all controling thing that will cause the eternal suffering of many beings. the more people try to show how great this concept of a great and powerful and gracious being, the more they show it to be a cold hearted, non caring bully


You can blame Paul for most of that. I've noticed that, if you throw out everything Paul wrote, the New Testament is actually pretty inclusive. Otherwise, you have to acknowledge that the Christian god will send every remote tribesman to hell just for being out of contact with Christians.

I wouldn't be surprised if Christian scholars someday work out that Paul was the anti-Christ.


And there inlies the problem. You now say throw out part of the bible because it doesn't fit your concept. Why not then be able to add some of the nostic writings (if that is the right term) and what will be the next bit that you disagree wih and therefore be thrown out?


I am not a Christian so I don't exactly "agree" with any of it but I can see what is harmful to a religion.

I would say that a man who never met Jesus nor anybody who knew Jesus that decided to write 12 (13 by some counts) books in the bible, teaching messages contrary to Jesus, is definitively, a negative element.

And it's spelled "Gnostic" and has nothing to do with Paul's complete lack of qualifications.



posted on Apr, 20 2013 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by Cuervo
 

I would say that a man who never met Jesus nor anybody who knew Jesus that decided to write 12 . . .
Paul was an Apostle, by his own account.
Paul did meet Peter, and James, the brother of Jesus.
Paul also met the risen Christ, formerly know as, Jesus, in Heaven.
He wrote 7 of the books of the New Testament, by consensus of scholars devoted to that sort of study.
Paul was very familiar with the Christian traditions of the time and does not seem to have been lacking any sort of knowledge that would be necessary in order to preach the Gospel of repentance and forgiveness available through the gift of Jesus.



posted on Apr, 21 2013 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by newnature
We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.


I quoted your post because I really do have quite a bit I'd like to say, BUT my hope for you and everyone who thinks like you is very thin indeed. So, I've decided to share this to the readers:
READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES!!! DON'T PUT YOUR TRUST IN KOOKS LIKE THIS NEWNATURE IMPOSTOR. Good day, to all those who actually do care about the truth.

Edit to add: Okay, so maybe "go to the source" wasn't enough for some of you folks, so, for those who are less motivated to discern the truth for themselves, I shall help a little.
You know what, nevermind, if you can't be bothered to read the bible for yourself then I suggest you don't bother with me either. Willfull ignorance is the only way that people in this day and age could be so blind and deaf.
edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: I am grateful to some of you for speaking the truth about this horrible abberation that calls it'self Christianity.



posted on Apr, 21 2013 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by newnature
We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.


I quoted your post because I really do have quite a bit I'd like to say, BUT my hope for you and everyone who thinks like you is very thin indeed. So, I've decided to share this to the readers:
READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES!!! DON'T PUT YOUR TRUST IN KOOKS LIKE THIS NEWNATURE IMPOSTOR. Good day, to all those who actually do care about the truth.

Edit to add: Okay, so maybe "go to the source" wasn't enough for some of you folks, so, for those who are less motivated to discern the truth for themselves, I shall help a little.
You know what, nevermind, if you can't be bothered to read the bible for yourself then I suggest you don't bother with me either. Willfull ignorance is the only way that people in this day and age could be so blind and deaf.
edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: I am grateful to some of you for speaking the truth about this horrible abberation that calls it'self Christianity.


OK I won't bother with you either, oh wait a minute, maybe I'll just read what you wrote, oh hang it, if you have that attitude then why should I bother reading what you write but then again, maybe I should read it. Ah who cares, if anybody wants to read this then fine, it is just beyond me how anyone could ah whatever



posted on Apr, 21 2013 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by Wonders
 

DON'T PUT YOUR TRUST IN KOOKS LIKE THIS . . .

It seems like basically spamming to me, posting a bunch of "Free Grace" cult propaganda and not sticking around to defend any of it.
I doubt that the person has anything to add because the post does not, like you said, reflect a knowledge of the Bible, but rather devotion to whoever his favorite cult leader is.



posted on Jul, 20 2013 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by Wonders

I quoted your post because I really do have quite a bit I'd like to say, BUT my hope for you and everyone who thinks like you is very thin indeed. So, I've decided to share this to the readers:
READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES!!! DON'T PUT YOUR TRUST IN KOOKS LIKE THIS NEWNATURE IMPOSTOR. Good day, to all those who actually do care about the truth.

Edit to add: Okay, so maybe "go to the source" wasn't enough for some of you folks, so, for those who are less motivated to discern the truth for themselves, I shall help a little.
You know what, nevermind, if you can't be bothered to read the bible for yourself then I suggest you don't bother with me either. Willfull ignorance is the only way that people in this day and age could be so blind and deaf.
edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: I am grateful to some of you for speaking the truth about this horrible abberation that calls it'self Christianity.

Edit to add: I'm sorry for what I wrote, I would be willing to share scripture with anyone willing to listen, please ask, and if I don't know the answer, we can learn together. God loves us.
edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: But the love that God has for us does not leave room for chaos, Jesus is The Prince of Peace. There is no peace without order, there is no order beyond the boundaries set forth through laws. John 14:16 "If you love me, obey my commandments.



posted on Jul, 20 2013 @ 05:23 AM
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reply to post by Cuervo
 

if you throw out everything Paul wrote, the New Testament is actually pretty inclusive.

Paul's letter to the Romans is the biblical magnus opus of inclusiveness.
He made welcoming people who are different from you the Christian sacrament.



posted on Jul, 20 2013 @ 05:30 AM
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reply to post by Wonders
 

I'm sorry for what I wrote, I would be willing to share scripture with anyone willing to listen, please ask, and if I don't know the answer, we can learn together. God loves us.
Don't be (sorry).
This person, newnature, apparently is someone who copies and pastes blog posts from the internet and uses them to make his own threads and does not ever actually respond to posts on them to defend any of it. I would guess because he can't, since he probably didn't write them in the first place.
As for verses, there is a notable absence of them in these thread starting posts.
edit on 20-7-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)





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