Wow, the maps posted by Mainer are interesting, to say the least.

I for one have no wish to participate in any civil war.

All I want to do is live peacefully with my family, go to church Sundays and Wednesdays, and serve God.

Seems like living a normal life is too much to ask nowadays....

I do not want any NWO though. America should have its sovereignty, as declared in the Constitution.

You know, with all this talk about civil war...I don't think we'll need another terrorist attack. Just certain people to instigate things, then voila, a reason for martial law.

Think American's should do some research before fighting with our neighbors. Who puts it in the minds of American's to start a civil war between red and blue states. Uhuh thats what I thought ! (((think long and hard))) America is in this thing (( the same boat )) together no mater red or blue, hangs white flag on door next to all the yellow ribbon's.
Life is to short !

Beisdes bringing about world instability and creating an even more divded America...has anyone mentioned what the purpose of having this Civil War would be?

There are three other alternatives besides civil war for effecting change.

1. Sacrifice--Ghandian tactics. When Christians and Sikhs and Muslims lay down their lives in peaceful protests, the whole world and history and media NOTICE. This is how the Vietnam War was brought to an end. This, likewise is HOW the Soviet Union came down--like mushrooms in the grass. It collapsed because people saw what a sick sick methodology was in use.

2. Legal Remedies. In fact, there are several class-action suits against Bush for crimes against humanity and crimes against the Constitution. Who knows? Maybe they will work out for Justice.

3. Repudiation and humiliation of "middle levels" of "Gummint." If and when the Secret Service and FBI are finally "up to here" with oppression, lies, deceit and games that are being played upon the working and electing populace, it is possible they [and our Military leaders also] will--PROFESSIONALLY--revolt and provide the means [exposing truth and prosecuting Justice themselves] for the return of this nation to a Constitutional Republic--as it was designed to be and as we have all been taught since infancy that it is or was.

As things are now, the Soviet Union has simply moved to Washington DC.

Really.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I'm hoping you all aren't serious when comparing the (almost 200 year old) civil war map with the electorial college map as proof of another civil war.

What it shows, is clear, the red states remain enslaved, the brown states have become enslaved, and the blue states are on their way to be enslaved. This is the kind of divide that can trigger a civil war, and this is tesitmont from the exact divide from 200 years ago, can you argue with that? Thus clearly suggesting the power dynamics have never shifted much, rather as the NWO conspiracy theories suggest, have gradually enslaved all of America, like boiling a frog.

Your county map example, in one word, is flawed. Good day. I won't argue further on this. The maps themselves speak volumes, and if you are too deaf to listen to those, then no amount of words from me is going to do better.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Get real

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
What it shows, is clear, the red states remain enslaved, the brown states have become enslaved, and the blue states are on their way to be enslaved. This is the kind of divide that can trigger a civil war, and this is tesitmont from the exact divide from 200 years ago, can you argue with that? Thus clearly suggesting the power dynamics have never shifted much, rather as the NWO conspiracy theories suggest, have gradually enslaved all of America, like boiling a frog.

1. What divide? The main issues during the civil war were States rights and Slavery, and it was triggered by the succession of states. You're saying this time....we're just enslaved so we'll just forget about all our comforts, all our dreams, everything this country has stood for and start fighting each other for nothing?

2. Enslaved to what btw? And how is it that the PTB are only able to enslave half the nation (which just happens to be the half you don't agree with)

3. You talk as though it's the Red States that are "enslaved" how do you know it's not the opposite?

Your county map example, in one word, is flawed. Good day. I won't argue further on this. The maps themselves speak volumes, and if you are too deaf to listen to those, then no amount of words from me is going to do better.

Now that's funny. I'm wrong but you're right and you can't explain why.

Since he's not going to talk about it futher, anyone else want to take a crack at how showing the counties that voted for Bush and Kerry is less representative than showing the Electoral college map.

Just because you don't agree with something Indigo doesn't mean it's flawed...

Slavery is when a person has to work more than 50% of the time, just to pay their taxes. We are now at 41% taxation.

Slavery is when a person has no time to be with his family and rest, when he has to work a seventy or eighty-hour week just to keep things going.

Slavery is when one never owns the property on which one lives; it is owned by a mortgage holder and one is merely a vassal, paying "dues" perpetually simply to exist on it.

Slavery is when educating a child consumes eight hours of his day with rote conformity, instead of three hours a day of delight-full and meaning-full practice, three hours of useful chores around the house and three hours of pure play.

Slavery is when a person earns less than a living wage, which nowadays is around $12 an hour.

Slavery is when a person never gets more than a weekend off; never has the opportunity to go on a month-long vacation and rest.

would you agree?

Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
There are three other alternatives besides civil war for effecting change.

1. Sacrifice--Ghandian tactics. When Christians and Sikhs and Muslims lay down their lives in peaceful protests, the whole world and history and media NOTICE.

OK........You first.

1. What divide? The main issues during the civil war were States rights and Slavery, and it was triggered by the succession of states. You're saying this time....we're just enslaved so we'll just forget about all our comforts, all our dreams, everything this country has stood for and start fighting each other for nothing?

Your comforts, dreams, and everything else is dependent on the government, and it is this government that is making it much harder for you. So, those who are fighting, are fighting for the same ideals as you stated, for their comforts and dreams and for their freedom.

2. Enslaved to what btw? And how is it that the PTB are only able to enslave half the nation (which just happens to be the half you don't agree with)

If you have to ask me, if you're enslaved, then there is no need answering it.

3. You talk as though it's the Red States that are "enslaved" how do you know it's not the opposite?

The "red" states voted for a president that came to power through deciet, destroyed the economy, took the nation to endless wars, murdered some 10,000 innocent people abroad, and sacrified the lives of thousands of Americans for self-interests, while terrorizing the people with the fear of terrorists. Meanwhile, the "blue" states voted for the opposite. It's obvious who is enslaved.

Since he's not going to talk about it futher, anyone else want to take a crack at how showing the counties that voted for Bush and Kerry is less representative than showing the Electoral college map.

Just because you don't agree with something Indigo doesn't mean it's flawed...

What is funny, that I have to explain something so obvious to you. You are trying to compare an old state map to a county map, in other words apples to oranges. We, are comparing a state map to a state map, in other words apples to apples/oranges to oranges. Do you need futher explanations of the obvious?

Cavscout, Ghandian tactics WORKED to end the Vietnam War; and that is WHY the PTB are meeting peaceful demonstrators with an absolute show of power and violence this time.

That's not a strategy that's going to work this time due to the fact that the Media will refuse to publicize what peace demonstrators are doing, at their great cost and in great danger.

This is how we KNOW FOR CERTAIN that "this Gummint" is out to get us, because they tolerate NO DISSENT WHATEVER. Congress passed the Patriot Act WITHOUT READING IT; the Judiciary practically rubberstamps whatever violent tactics the Gummint comes up with. It's a dictatorship now.

The world economy is a dictatorship. Either we buy MacDonald's stuff, Starbucks coffee, and Taco Bell, or there's no place else to get food. Ever call your local USDA Agricultural Extension Service and ask them to give you the names of local organic farmers or farmers that can sell you grains direct? I HAVE. They DUNNO!! And they don't WANT to know. They want our US grains shipped OFF to China to improve the balance of payments problem. Never mind, US consumers. We hafta go to the supermarket and pay a dollar a pound for plain oatmeal!! [I got a bushel of soybeans for $6 from a farmer. It's a dollar a pound at the health food store.]

They despise us, personally--the bureaucraps. They want to affect numbers, not help people.

So, what we have to do is UNDERCUT the bureaucracy anywhich way we can. Work around them. Establish co-ops at church--buying clubs, baby sitting, tool bank, skills swap, credit union.

We've got to library all the paperwork so we keep everything technically "legal," but we can't depend on the USGummint to do anything but tax us, tax us and tax us--until it collapses.

And then we have a different problem--UN intervention.

Shrug.

Back during the time of our first civil war, they were persecuting and enslaving people with a particular skin color. Now they have decided to persecute people with a particular sexual preference.

Why are we still having so many problems getting along with each other? We must be smarter than that. Or do some people just have a need to persecute someone?

Aggression and persecution PROVIDE DISTRACTIONS from the reality that thieves are stealing the equity of the American people in their own nation.

Did you KNOW that the Administration has been using PRIVATE REAL ESTATE as collateral for national debt loans in Europe?

I'm going to have to go back and dig out the references that substantiate this matter; but I understand, this is absolutely true.

And when the US defaults on its debts, European bankers are going to come over here and dispossess people from their own properties, who didn't know their lands had been put up for collateral.

It's an outrage.

Give me a few hours to go dig this up, okay? NEVER MIND. HERE IT IS.

*******************

[url]http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/resource.html[\url]

The information below explains how a fictitious "alter ego" of the real you exists. The fictitious version of you has been created in an effort to justify acts that would be unlawful if applied to the real you. Government documents show the United States went bankrupt in 1933. Operating government on credit requires enormous collateral. Government itself produces no wealth. Flesh and blood people do. Your "strawman's" life and property have been pledged as collateral1 for government debt!

The Birth Certificate

Since the early 1960's State governments, themselves legal fictions as indicated by full caps, have issued birth certificates to "persons" using all-caps names. This is not a lawful record of your physical birth, but a legal fiction indicated by the use of all-caps. It may look as if it's your proper name, but that's impossible since no proper name is ever written in all-caps. As you will see, the Birth Certificate is the government's created legal instrument for its legal title of ownership, or deed, to the personal legal fiction they have created.

One factor to recognize, before going any further, is the governmental use of older data storage from the late 1950's until the early 1980's. As a "leftover" from various Teletype oriented systems, many government data storage methods used all-caps for proper names. At first, this may have been a necessity of the technology at the time, not a deliberate act. Perhaps, when this technology was first being used and implemented into the mainstream of communications, some legal experts saw it as a perfect tool for their legal fictions. What better excuse could there be?

However, since local, State and Federal offices primarily used typewriters during that same time period, and Birth Certificates and other important documents, such as Driver's Licenses, were produced with typewriters, it's very doubtful that this poses much of an excuse to explain all-caps usage for proper names. The only reasonable usage of the older databank all-caps storage systems would have been for addressing envelopes or certain forms in bulk, including payment checks, which the governments did frequently.

Automated computer systems, with daisy wheel and pin printers used prevalently in the early 1980's, emulated the IBM electric typewriter Courier or Helvetica fonts in both upper and lower case letters. Shortly thereafter, the introduction of laser and ink jet printers with multiple fonts became the standard. For the past twenty years the only rational excuse for the government to use all-caps is if older data is still stored in its original form and has not been translated due to the costs of re-entry. But this does not excuse the entry of new data, only "legacy" data. In fact, on many government forms today, proper names are in all-caps while other areas of the same computer produced document are in both upper and lower case. One can only conclude that the use of all-caps when printing a proper name is no mistake.

Birth information is collected by the state and turned over to the U.S. . The all-caps fictitious corporate entity is then placed into a "trust", known as a "Cestui Que Trust". A cestui que trust is defined as: "He who has a right to a beneficial interest in and out of an estate the legal title to which is vested in another; The beneficiary of another." Cestui que use is: "He for whose use and benefit lands or tenements are held by another. The cestui que user has the right to receive the profits and benefits of the estate, but the legal title and possession, as well the duty of defending the same, reside in the other."

Each one of us, including our children, are considered assets of the bankrupt United States which acts as the "Debtor in Possession." We are designated by this government as human "resources" or human "capital". You may have noticed that all "personnel" offices have been converted to "human resource" offices. The government assumes the role of the Trustee while the newborn child becomes the beneficiary of his own trust. Absent the fraud involved, legal title to everything the child will ever own is vested in the government. The government then places the Trust into the hands of the parents, who are made the "guardians." The child may reside in the hands of the guardians until such time as the state claims that the parents are no longer capable to serve. The state then goes into the home and removes the "trust" from the guardians. At the age of majority, the parents lose their guardianship.

All Christian births used to be recorded in the family Bible only. The reason for instituting the Birth Certificate is so the state can claim title to your person. It is a common law principle that says what one creates one may control. Via your state issued Birth Certificate in the name of your all-caps person you are considered to be a slave or indentured servant to the various Federal, State and local governments. This legal maneuver is compounded further when one obtains a driver's license, marriage license or a Social Security Number. You have no Rights in state-approved birth, marriage, or even death. The state claims the sovereign right to all legal fiction titles it creates.

And it doesn't end there.

The creditors of the United States were getting nervous by the mid-1960's. President Nixon had to collateralize more debt. He settled upon a plan to quietly set aside huge tracts of American land with their mineral rights in reserve to cover the outstanding debts. But the American people were already angered over the Vietnam "war". Nixon couldn't very well admit that he was parceling out huge chunks of the United States to holders of U.S. debt. So, he invented the Environmental Protection Agency in 1970 and passed draconian environmental laws which served to grab land with vast natural resources away from the owners and lock it away, proving to the holders of the debt that Americans are not drilling, mining, or otherwise developing those resources. As the government sinks deeper into debt, it grabs more and more land, declares it to be a "wilderness," "heritage river," or "wetlands" area. There are various other designations, but the end result is the same: The People may not use the land. In many cases they are forbidden to set foot on it.

It is not about conservation, it is about establishing collateral. YOUR land is being stolen by the government and used to secure loans the government really had no business taking out in the first place. Given that the government cannot get out of debt, and is collateralizing more and more land to avoid foreclosure, the day is not far off when the people of the United States will be told that they are no longer private citizens with private property rights but mere tenants living on another's property. This day will arrive swiftly if Americans give up their firearms .... [snip]





[edit on 10-11-2004 by Emily_Cragg]