Evidence of Ancient Advanced Civilizations...Would We Find It?

If there were any evidence, the best place to look is probably at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea.

There were large towns in the flood plain that were wiped out completely when the water came over the Straits of Gibralter at the end of the last Ice Age.

reply to post by babybunnies


Good point. That is very interesting!
One could also storm the museum's, specifically the ones in Egypt, and demand that they show all their material or that the actual Egyptian people (and archeologists) should be allowed access to the material and have a say in what should or should not be on display.

This, we cannot do of course, as many museums are privetly owned but still.. It is a crime against humanity to deliberatly hide material that may or may not contradict our current paradigm and is part of not only the ancient peoples' legacy, but also of the entirety of the human specie's history on Earth.

reply to post by TheKeyMaster

So if the Anikythera mechanism was so trivial then why didn't anyone make anything like it for another 1000 years?

I'm sure you have heard of the Middle Ages. Skills known to the Romans and Greeks were lost to Europeans for, as you say, about a thousand years.

Your subsequent post is full of the kind of thing popular with lost-civilisation cultists. I'm afraid we've heard it all before—Hero of Alexandria, Dogon tribesmen, Indian flying machines and the rest of the long-debunked parade. None of these claims requires any further discussion on this thread.

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reply to post by micpsi

Of course, ancient garbage heaps have not been found. People no doubt got rid of their own refuse in their own way.

Ancient garbage heaps have been found in their hundreds, possibly thousands. They are known to archaeologists as middens. Earlier on in this thread Hanslune provided links to information about a particular midden that had been used for nearly a quarter of a million years.

None of these middens shows the faintest trace of any kind of advanced civilisation.

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reply to post by GargIndia

India had a federal structure during Vedic time. There were several kingdoms ruled by 'Raja'. The most dominant kingdom had authority over these kingdoms, and its king was called a 'Maha Raja'. 'Chakravarti Raja' is a title reserved for the king of entire Earth.

India, in the sense you mean, did not exist in Vedic times. The nation-state is a modern European invention. What you had in India was the same thing you had all over the world until its rise: tribal homelands, principalities or city-states, often but not always culturally homogenous within themselves, and often at war with one another. At times, one state or another would rise to a position of preeminence and dominate the others; you'd call that an empire.

And that's all there is to it. As for chakravarti, you probably know that it was a title generously conferred by flatterers and sycophants upon every petty king and warlord from prehistory to the present day. For example, the kings of Yalpanapattinam, an outpost of Dravidian culture on the island of Ceylon, had an entire dynasty named Arya Chakravarti.

reply to post by Astyanax


"India, in the sense you mean, did not exist in Vedic times. The nation-state is a modern European invention. What you had in India was the same thing you had all over the world until its rise: tribal homelands, principalities or city-states, often but not always culturally homogenous within themselves, and often at war with one another. At times, one state or another would rise to a position of preeminence and dominate the others; you'd call that an empire. "

If you substantiate your claims, then we can take this discussion further.
India has been under foreign rule for a long time, and its ancient artifacts have been stolen or destroyed. Its history has been seriously distorted. However luckily we have more research done post independence that I shall lay out as proof.

My intention here is not to get into a long discussion on India or its civilization. My only intention is to convey the idea that rise and fall of civilizations occurs rather frequently on Earth.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Hi Smyleegrl,

I went thought the posts and i didn't find it mentioned anywhere. One of the sources that i use as "evidence" of previous civilazations is mythology. I know that most people dismiss mythology as pure fantasy, but i strongly believe that there is some truth in the origins of those tales.

Since i'm Greek i will start by mentioning Hesiod's Workd and Days. There Hesiod describes the 5 ages of man.
The Golden Age

The Golden Age is the only age that falls within the rule of Cronus. Molded out of the earth through the hands of Prometheus, these humans were said to live among the gods, and freely mingled with them. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to a very old age but with a youthful appearance and eventually died peacefully. Their spirits live on as "guardians". Plato in Cratylus (397 e) recounts the golden race of men who came first. He clarifies that Hesiod did not mean men literally made of gold, but good and noble. He describes these men as daemons upon the earth. Since δαίμονες (daimones) is derived from δαήμονες (daēmones, meaning knowing or wise), they are beneficent, preventing ills, and guardians of mortals.

The Silver Age

The Silver Age and every age that follows fall within the rule of Cronus' successor and son, Zeus. Zeus created these humans out of the ash tree. Men in the Silver age lived for one hundred years under the dominion of their mothers. They lived only a short time as grown adults, and spent that time in strife with one another. During this Age men refused to worship the gods and Zeus destroyed them for their impiety. After death, humans of this age became "blessed spirits" of the underworld.

The Bronze Age

Men of the Bronze Age were hardened and tough, as war was their purpose and passion. Not only were their arms and tools forged of bronze, but so were their very homes. The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits; instead, they dwell in the "dank house of Hades". This Age came to an end with the flood of Deucalion.

The Heroic Age

The Heroic Age is the one age that does not correspond with any metal. It is also the only age that improves upon the age it follows. These humans were created from the bones of the earth (stones) through the actions of Deucalion and Pyrrha. In this period men lived with noble demigods and heroes. It was the heroes of this Age who fought at Thebes and Troy. This race of humans died and went to Elysium.

The Iron Age

Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age. During this age humans live an existence of toil and misery. Children dishonor their parents, brother fights with brother and the social contract between guest and host (xenia) is forgotten. During this age might makes right, and bad men use lies to be thought good. At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: "there will be no help against evil."

The mythological timeline have been speculated that started around 1710 BC and each age of man lasted from 50 to 150 years, but i strongly believe that each age represents a rise and fall of past civilazations and the periods of time were far greater than they say.

Hindu philosophy talks about the Yuga aka epochs or eras of existence.

Satya Yuga:- Virtue reigns supreme. Human stature was 21 cubits. Average human lifespan was 100,000 years.
Treta Yuga: – There was 3 quarter virtue & 1 quarter sin. Normal human stature was 14 cubits. Average human lifespan was 10,000 years.
Dwapar Yuga: – There was 1 half virtue & 1 half sin. Normal human stature was 7 cubits. Average human lifespan was 1000 years.
Kali Yuga: – There was 1 quarter virtue & 3 quarter sin. Normal human stature was 3.5 cubits. Average human lifespan will be 100 years. Towards the end of the Yuga this will come down to 20 years.

The duration of each era
Satya-Yuga 1,728,000 human years
Treta-Yuga 1,296,000 human years
Dwapara-Yuga 864,000 human years
Kali-Yuga 432,000 human years

veda.wikidot.com...

In many different texts we also read about advanced technology like flying machines and robots. Used mainly by the gods or given as gifts to the kings.
In Greek mythology, for example, god Hephaestus is responsible for the creation of many robots like Talos. Now it makes you wonder, had the ancients such a creative imagination or this technology was real? And the gods, if they existed, were they aliens like some claim or just an older super advanced race?

Originally posted by babybunnies
If there were any evidence, the best place to look is probably at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea.

There were large towns in the flood plain that were wiped out completely when the water came over the Straits of Gibralter at the end of the last Ice Age.

Well, something has been found already, it is the Antikythera mechanism. How advanced is that? I'd say it's very advanced. But the problem is that anything that's been found so far fits perfectly into its technological age. We discover bronze mechanisms, batteries in the form of clay jars, megalithic monuments, but we never find computer parts or jet debris.

reply to post by GargIndia

If you substantiate your claims, then we can take this discussion further.

Substantiate my claims? They aren't claims, they are common knowledge.

The only time ancient India might possibly have been united under a single ruler was Asoka's reign, though it is merely an assumption that it covered the whole of what is now called India. He was good at putting stelae up.

Its history has been seriously distorted.

Almost entirely by Indian nationalists, or rather sectarian nationalists with local axes to grind. By the way, I am South Asian and moderately well read in the history of my region of the world.

My only intention is to convey the idea that rise and fall of civilizations occurs rather frequently on Earth.

Any history book will tell us that. I understand, following Roberts, that their average lifespan is 200-odd years.

reply to post by Astyanax


I know you are from Bangladesh.

India history is constructed by the British. I can vouch British know much more about India's history compared with what is there in the text books. There was a good thing about the British rule - they actually took away the artifacts rather than destroying them. The Muslims just destroyed whatever they could find.

The modern India owes its existence to the British. There is absolutely no doubt about it.

I am positive a lot of information will be made public by the British about India in the coming decades.

The list of kings that rules 'Bharat' from about 3300BCE to Ashok's time is available in an ancient manuscript which is still existing in this world.

Many 5000 years plus old manuscripts are still surviving in British records.

Originally posted by ABeing
reply to post by Harte

 

You can ask Samsung how your TV was constructed and they can actually tell you exactly how it was.
You can ask a myriad of different archaeologists how they think the site was built and you will receive a myriad of different answers, one of which will fit the current paradigm and be considered to be true.

I was not asking how, whoever did it, constructed Machu Piccu piece by piece, but how they managed to move such heavy stones on such a high altitude. If you are not certain; then what is your theory?

If, 1600 years from now, whatever Samsung has become was contacted and asked about my TV, would they be able to answer the question?

What if they were a manufacturer of only pencil sharpeners by then, and had been doing only that for a thousand years?

The Inca were still living in Machu Picchu when the Spaniards arrived. They never denied building the site.

Originally posted by ABeing

In reply to:

Originally posted by Harte
Please provide an example, showing not only that the tales exist at all, but also that they are "still told."

I can only provide evidence suggesting that the tales are still being told, but to have concrete, solid evidence I would either have to reach an Incan elder on the phone or online somehow, or travel to Peru and ask them face to face, which I do not believe is possible at the moment.

IOW, you either made it up or read it on some fringe website, and they made it up.


Harte

reply to post by Byrd


Thank you for the WIKI link (would'nt mind a holiday there myself) and yes I did get that supposed legend from the You Tube so it may be totally bogus, however My friend whom in the 1990's lived in china for several year's and now work's for the united nations as a peace negotiator told me a few thing's though not related to this in particular.

As for the evolution model being wrong it does not take into account random genetic fluctuation through viral propagation of genetic material were as you know a virus being essentially inert until it enters the host cell is merely a strand or fragment of RNA or DNA within a Enzymatic protein shell and the act of blending it's material into the host nucleus, hijacking the cell and producing more of itself also mean's it can actually take on some of the genetic structure of the host cell and pass it on to the next generation of viral spore's, these it turn can deposit this into the next cell they infect and if as has been hypothesized they are then turned off through a failure to hijack the cell after integration then both the additional information in the virus and the virus own gene sequence would then be passed on to the next generation of the host cell through standard mitosis.
Now this become's interesting when the cell is infected by the virus from another species, virus may use this to there own evolutionary advantage in that for instance in long domesticated specie's such as pigs and were they are in constant proximity to human's certain diseases and virus are easily exchanged between the different species, indeed the virus bourne exchange of DNA or RNA may have homogenised the species so that this work's in there evolutionary favour.

Now as you know there was until the advent of modern infrastructure a village in Spain were the population either through mutation or regression all had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot all working functioning digit's with the full connective bone structure metacarpals e.t.c. and through out the ages there were multiple people such as the ancient Persian king's whom were supposedly thus endowed and of great stature, how do you know beyond any doubt (As that would then be unscientific as no theory is proven but can only be supported or accepted in science) that a race were not infected by a for e.g. a Symian virus that regressed and mutated them to such a degree that they were then mere human forerunners especially if they were few in numbers.

There are many OOPART's though I give you that they are pseudo science that would indicate the presence of advanced or even human type life well before they were supposed to have existed, Also back to science the dating for the genetic African Eve and African Adam are well before 100 thousand year's in fact nearer to 200 thousand and they were merely individuals that have past there respective Y and X chromosomes down and are not the only ancestors as it is merely genetic dominance of there genes nor there sole ancestry that led to the modern human species, remember also that the pre Babylonian Ninevan civilisation used base 12 (Twelve fingers anyone - at least for there more intelligent members) which we still use today in our hour system and month count.

I realize it may seem that I'm absent in this thread. Fact is, I'm enjoying reading the replies and doing my own digging. You guys are light-years ahead of me in this area, and it's wonderful to just watch you guys talk.

Thank you all, very much. I'm learning a lot!

Originally posted by Harte
If, 1600 years from now, whatever Samsung has become was contacted and asked about my TV, would they be able to answer the question?

What if they were a manufacturer of only pencil sharpeners by then, and had been doing only that for a thousand years?

The Inca were still living in Machu Picchu when the Spaniards arrived. They never denied building the site.

Haha, can we stick around one point before jumping 1600 years forward in time and we begin to discuss the future?

But, for politeness sake; who knows? I am obviously no oracle, but if Samsung is still around 1600 years from now and would have been sharpening pens "now", since a thousand years back; then I would be very curious to know what ever happened to them, the world and linear advancement -in my time we barely even used pens any longer.

For all I know, there may be no remains of any television set, whatsoever, in the entire world by then and there would be no need to remember their existence. Or they had simply forgotten about it due to some cataclysmic event that either took place globally or were specific to every employee and person affiliated with Samsung in some almost supernatural way.

And this is exactly my point. If the Inca people cannot explain how Macchu Piccu and other sites were constructed; what happened? The sites are obviously important; how and why did the knowledge become forgotten?

Going back to Machu Piccu and the Inca empire:
Just now, I watched a short documentary with John Pierre Protzen regarding the construction theories of their megalithic monuments and cities, and while he provided a valid theory, once they began to work with stone blocks around half a ton in weight; it became increasingly harder and more dangerous to continue.
Now that is with 0,5 tons. What about 25?

The Inca certainly could have built Machu Piccu and other Inca sacred places using primitive tools and equipment, but, as of now, how they did it remains a mystery and it is becoming more and more evident that they had to have used some kind of sophisticated building technique at least, in order to do this.

Originally posted by ABeing
I can only provide evidence suggesting that the tales are still being told, but to have concrete, solid evidence I would either have to reach an Incan elder on the phone or online somehow, or travel to Peru and ask them face to face, which I do not believe is possible at the moment.

IOW, you either made it up or read it on some fringe website, and they made it up.

My claim comes from a documentary, in which an Incan elder say what I wrote, but, yes, the people making the documentary could have made it all up.

The documentary explored the ancient astronaut theory (it was not Ancient Aliens), but I am more inclined to believe in the legends of lost ancient and advanced civilizations right now.

However, Machu Piccu is one thing, but why are we not including Puma Punku in the discussion? I mentioned it too. Why does it not deserve the same kind of attention as MP?

Originally posted by smyleegrl
I realize it may seem that I'm absent in this thread. Fact is, I'm enjoying reading the replies and doing my own digging. You guys are light-years ahead of me in this area, and it's wonderful to just watch you guys talk.

Thank you all, very much. I'm learning a lot!

I really am no expert in the field of alternative archeology and history, and neither am I qualified to make any valid statements regarding how long the remains of our civilization would be around and in what condition, BUT, everyone is qualified to speculate and imagine.

I recommend watching the video I linked in a previous post!

reply to post by mrkeen


The problem is that the only suff that will survive over time is the stuff we consider outdated.... but what if that outdated stones stuff is in fact more advanced than us or made with more advanced technology we just don't know it?

One thing to consider is that not every culture recorded history.

When was the last time you came a across a modern cave drawing depicting flying machines and skyscrapers? Less than 0.001% of what man has witnessed or experienced in the past ended up on a cave wall ( as this art seems to last),

How many Model t fords do you see laying around considering over 15 million were made? This was only 100 years ago.

In our age most of our 'history' is on a invisible medium. There are hard records being kept deep underground in modern day hall of records. We did this in the past.

I think that the issue that is constantly glossed over is the fact that there were horrific changes happened to the earth and man suffered great losses, great cities, cultures, and histories were destroyed with little or no record of them existing. I believe this may be the first time man has reached such a great population as today. In the past there were small pockets of man so far from each other that they might as well have been the moon. So education, history and advances were not necessary, what was necessary was to survive, maintain, and find a stable habitat as earth was going through many unpredictable changes and this may explain a little bit about what caused mankinds amnesia of the past.

The argument of the the building of the pyramids and megaliths around the world is still in question as to how and when and especially why is an example of this amnesia.

If there ever was a great ancient city that existed 10,000 or more years ago in North America that had skyscrapers, and modern tech, the ice age and its miles high ice sheets pulverized, and ground every thing to a find dust. Anyone who live up north can see all the geological traces of the harsh ice age. So one should not dismiss the possibilities considering that mankinds capable intelligence 25,000 years ago is identical to ours.

We had a different impact on earth back then and one shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that ancient 'intelligence; or 'advanced technology' should resemble our advances in every way.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


There are natural factors on top of man-made factors that cause loss of civilizations.

Earth is subject to periodic major catastrophes that cause almost total loss of human population.

Now we have evidence of extinction level events that happened in the past like the ones that killed the dinosaurs.

The science has assumed that human did not exist with dinosaur but we cannot be sure. If humans did exist then, they would have suffered the same fate as dinosaurs.

Veda tells us that a 'Mahayuga' is 3.24 million years. Every 71 'Mahayuga' (230 million years) comes a major extinction level event.

The current 'Yuga' (or time period) started around 5300 years ago and will last a total of 3,24,000 years. A lot of people who are waiting for 'judgement day' will be disappointed. This yuga is called 'Kalyuga' (The age of machines, 'kal' means machine). There will be great machines built in this age but humans will lose vitality and health. This age will also be marked with constant strife and warfare.

Originally posted by ABeing

Originally posted by Harte
If, 1600 years from now, whatever Samsung has become was contacted and asked about my TV, would they be able to answer the question?

What if they were a manufacturer of only pencil sharpeners by then, and had been doing only that for a thousand years?

The Inca were still living in Machu Picchu when the Spaniards arrived. They never denied building the site.

Haha, can we stick around one point before jumping 1600 years forward in time and we begin to discuss the future?

This is precisely the point, and I'm not jumping around at all.

Macchu Picchu was built 1600 years ago. Yet you claim that today the natives are still denying they built it and cannot say how.

Would they know how it was done? Would Samsung know?

Originally posted by ABeing
But, for politeness sake; who knows? I am obviously no oracle, but if Samsung is still around 1600 years from now and would have been sharpening pens "now", since a thousand years back; then I would be very curious to know what ever happened to them, the world and linear advancement -in my time we barely even used pens any longer.

Yet we still build with stone, don't we?

We just use different (and cheaper) methods.

Originally posted by ABeing
For all I know, there may be no remains of any television set, whatsoever, in the entire world by then and there would be no need to remember their existence.

Yes, and even if there were remains of televisions, people could investigate and eventually discover exactly how televisions were made in our time.

And that is exactly what has been done with Macchu Picchu. Modern investigators have determined how the ancient Inca constructed it,

Originally posted by ABeing
And this is exactly my point. If the Inca people cannot explain how Macchu Piccu and other sites were constructed; what happened? The sites are obviously important; how and why did the knowledge become forgotten?

Modern life happened.

Your ancestors used to regularly make stone spearheads. Can you do this today?

Originally posted by ABeing
Going back to Machu Piccu and the Inca empire:
Just now, I watched a short documentary with John Pierre Protzen regarding the construction theories of their megalithic monuments and cities, and while he provided a valid theory, once they began to work with stone blocks around half a ton in weight; it became increasingly harder and more dangerous to continue.
Now that is with 0,5 tons. What about 25?

Has anyone ever claimed this was easy?

Originally posted by ABeing
The Inca certainly could have built Machu Piccu and other Inca sacred places using primitive tools and equipment, but, as of now, how they did it remains a mystery and it is becoming more and more evident that they had to have used some kind of sophisticated building technique at least, in order to do this.

It may be a mystery to you. But not to me.

Originally posted by ABeing

Originally posted by ABeing
I can only provide evidence suggesting that the tales are still being told, but to have concrete, solid evidence I would either have to reach an Incan elder on the phone or online somehow, or travel to Peru and ask them face to face, which I do not believe is possible at the moment.

IOW, you either made it up or read it on some fringe website, and they made it up.

My claim comes from a documentary, in which an Incan elder say what I wrote, but, yes, the people making the documentary could have made it all up.

The documentary explored the ancient astronaut theory (it was not Ancient Aliens), but I am more inclined to believe in the legends of lost ancient and advanced civilizations right now.

However, Machu Piccu is one thing, but why are we not including Puma Punku in the discussion? I mentioned it too. Why does it not deserve the same kind of attention as MP?

edit on 24-4-2013 by ABeing because: (no reason given)

The Inca didn't build Puma Punku, although in an earlier post, you seemed to think that archaeology says they did.

Why are you asking? There's nothing at Puma Punku that can't be explained, just like Macchu Picchu. In fact, Macchu Piccu would have been more difficult, IMO.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


sometimes, Harte, i feel it would be easier just to post a reading list and then stay clear of some threads.

reply to post by Harte

Originally posted by ABeing
Yes, Puma Punku predates the Inca people, whose forefathers referred to the site as "a place of the gods", which was built by the gods and inhabited by the gods.

Nothing worth looking into at Puma Punku? Despite the fact that the blocks have straight cuts, metall clamps between them to reinforce the structures and the heaviest block weight 130 tons; while Machu Picchu have irregurarly shaped stones, no metall clamps in between the blocks and the heaviest blocks at that site weighting up to "only" 25 tons? If you say so; I respect your opinion.

Last post in this thread for me. Watch the video I posted earlier. I am no expert but the guy in the video is however.
I agree with his conclusions and would be surprised if anyone didn't after watching.

.

reply to post by babybunnies


I agree with you but the official estimate accepted by geologist (for the most part) is that the isthmus of Gibralter was broken about 4 to 6 million year's ago but is believe the story of the Scilla and Charybdis from Greek legends aka the terrible current or serpent and the monster or whirlpool that devours ships are probably a garbled race memory of the failure as are the gnashing rocks, it may have begun as a trickle that slowly then more rapidly ate away the limestone porous mountain chain and indeed there is a geological anomaly on the sea side of the strait's called the abyssal sump it is a large circular indentation in the sea bed on the east side of the strait's and is the last thing you would expect to find as it though incredible if it is, is the same as the structures carved by natural whirl pool's on a smaller scale though I am sure there is an alternative explanation.

There was probable always a small inland brackish sea fed by the limestone caves that wormed there way through the Isthmus but can you imagine the spectacle of a water fall that washed a mountain chain away and the effect that would of had upon anyone that witnessed it and survived.

Argument for the Mediteranean sea being young, the sea bed under it is still going under increasing levels of subsidence from the pressure of the water and the deeper the water gets the greater the pressure which is why we have comparatively recent city's such as Pavlopetri and much younger including the bulk of classical Alexandria now under water and there are under water neolithic site's indicating a very advanced neolithic culture on some of the islands that have shrunk over time due to this subsidence.