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Evidence of Ancient Advanced Civilizations...Would We Find It?

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posted on May, 6 2013 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by GargIndia
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 

Please comment on substance rather than "faith" of somebody?
Let me know the points in the article where you have problems.
I have given this reference due to the logic offered, not due to faith or religion of the author.
No.
I am not going to wade my way through his obvious bias to create a cohesive argument in favour of radiometric dating. You sourced his info in looking to refute the topic...you could just as easily have done a google search with the intent to affirm it. I don't feel like doing your work for you by playing whack-a-mole with junk science.




posted on May, 6 2013 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by GargIndia
reply to post by Hanslune
 


Please refer to this link:

www.wisegeek.com...

Lignites do not form overnight. It takes millions of years. This spear tip is found in a lignite layer. It is likely to be the same as age as the lignite in which it is found.



Oh my more evidence of your inability to read sources given you. The artifacts were found at the vicinity of a Lignite mine they were not found in lignite themselves - this is what happens when you don't READ the SOURCES



Now back to you to provide your source for YOUR claims
edit on 6/5/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)
extra DIV



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck


Hey Johnny this guy is doing is best to avoid providing his source


He is so sadly lacking in a knowledge he actually thinks C-14 can date back to that period of time. He failed to read the paper, and posted a knee jerk reaction to the evidence - to what he wanted it to say instead of actually reading what methods the scientists used.

Amusing



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


As it is quite rightly pointed out in your referenced article there are a number of activity's and environmental factors that can alter or even partially reset the carbon 14 dating as well as other isotopic dating methods such as the less accurate but much longer range Argon Krypton dating,.
A good example of this was the Famous Turin Shroud that was exposed to air born pollen that introduced new carbon and also to the Cathedral fire that nearly destroyed it that may also have saturated it with carbon particle's and also the activity of living bacteria can also provide new carbon 14.

I think what you must realise about India is though they are losing there tradition's today due to the adoption of western technology and culture as well as western method's of data storage and communication and though they have one of, if not the, oldest living written languages that is actually not spoken though it is still written, i.e. Sanskrit they have for the bulk of there culture probably from before the writing was used transferred knowledge via the literal word and oral tradition that was and is still best expressed in the Yogi's and Brahman of India and there temple culture in particular, this mean's that there are sometimes no literal sources of information to back up accepted claim's or beliefs and to be fair this does not invalidated them though it does make them a lot harder to substantiate as valid claim's, Interestingly Prior to the Roman conquest of the Celts and like many others there history and legends as well as there cultural library was passed down in exactly the same way via the Bardic traditions and the Druid's and the elders, indeed this was the norm until the comparatively recent universal adoption of the written word.

So any fair and honest study of ancient history or at least the tale's of it must take this into account as well.
Wisdom is knowledge it is just stored in a different way and people like the Brahman have to learn to recite the Mahabharata perfectly before there elder's without alteration or embellishment as with such tradition's they long ago took into account the fallibility of the human mind and memory.

I like that about the spears though and it askes a very interesting anthropological question (though I believe the human race to be older) they are within 100 thousand years of the supposed birth of the Neanderthal, what level of sophistication do they exhibit, are they merely plain tree branches or are they perhaps an indication of a more advanced hunter gatherer society as at this time any Modern humans if they existed would have dwelt more toward the coastal region's and along rivers and estuary's were of course there traces would have probably been washed away.

These will keep you happy for 2 minutes at best but are probably not what they appear to be but must be included in any attempt to look to the past for possible advanced (technologically anyway) civilisation.
strangeaccounts.tumblr.com...
This one has cookies so sweep afterward.
www.badarchaeology.com...
Personally though I would look to Trepanning rather than bullets the Neanderthal were human's even if we regard them as thick they were actually very smart and could have at one time achieved another evolutionary leap only to be thwarted by climate and circumstance.
Still there is another picture in my collection of lunar archaeology stuff that show's what could be interpreted as a gun or hand tool of some sort badly eroded, I might consider snipping it so it will fit with ATS upload limit's and posting though it really does just look like angular stone's.
edit on 6-5-2013 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by LABTECH767
 


Howdy

The spears are just an example of what can be found in the archaeoligical record. Again C-14 was not used in dating the site. Thermoluminescence dating was used to date the layers of sediment and other methods too.

Oral histories can have important clues in them but they also tend to gather within them fantastical portions - because that is what humans do. We make up stories. Like the Illiad may have happened but the parts about the Greek God's participation in it is ...what? History or imagination?

Civilizations leave massive amounts of remains behind and this is difficult to remove while still leaving all the other evidence that there was no such civilizations, ie sediments, resource use, no pottery, etc.

The spears were spruce and pine I believe and cut from sapling I do believe. Neanderthals despite a poor opinion of them being produced in the 19th century are our cousins and were probably just as capable as us in a number of areas, but perhaps not in talking.

Here is the wiki on them - a lot easier to read and understand than the archie jargon filled other links
edit on 6/5/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Here is one you may like though I read this on another web site a few years ago I can not track it down so it will have to do.
planetearthvortex.wordpress.com...
I also heard of suspected three sided wooden shelters that may have had animal skin coverings over the fourth side that were apparently found in Japan also 250000 year old estimated.

All I can say with this is it pushes the age of modern thinking man back further than is comfortable for some people and even if they were not the same sub species as us they were perhaps equally capable and it also shows the extremes that the establishment will go to, to suppress data that they know will rock the boat.
edit on 6-5-2013 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by Hanslune
 


Here is one you may like though I read this on another web site a few years ago I can not track it down so it will have to do.
planetearthvortex.wordpress.com...
I also heard of suspected three sided wooden shelters that may have had animal skin coverings over the fourth side that were apparently found in Japan also 250000 year old estimated.

All I can say with this is it pushes the age of modern thinking man back further than is comfortable for some people and even if they were not the same sub species as us they were perhaps equally capable and it also shows the extremes that he establishment will go to, to suppress data that they know will rock the boat.


Yes I'm quite familar with Hueyatlaco and I would suggest that if you are interested in that story you read the book by Chris Hardaker on the subject.

Book

Now here is a question for you why does orthodoxy reject the time frame established for this site? Ah no its not because its to old there are specific reasons usually not mentioned by fringe websites.

No one would be particularly excited about 250,000 year old shelters in Japan - why you may ask? Because far older ones are already known


The oldest recognized buildings in the world are twelve 400,000-year-old huts found in Nice, France in 1960. Uncovered by an excavator preparing to build a new house, the oval shelters ranged from 26 feet to 49 feet in length and were between 13 feet and 20 feet wide. They were built of 3-inch in diameter stakes and braced by a ring of stones. Longer poles were set around the perimeter as supports. The huts had hearths and pebble-lined pits and were defined by stake holes.

Ancient humans thought to be Homo erectus that lived 350,000 years ago near present-day Bilzingsleben, East Germany constructed shelters similar to those of Bushmen in southern Africa. Circular bone and stone foundations were discovered for three huts between 9 and 13 feet across. In the middle of on circle, archaeologist found an elephant tusk, which they speculated was a center post.


Link to early man site that covers shelters

The only people who would be 'uncomfortable' as you say would be the creationists and they have created a whole new reality to avoid interfacing with this one. lol



edit on 6/5/13 by Hanslune because: Added book link



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Now they are some good web site's I must admit and quite enjoyed and I am not against the creationists but do agree they tend to distort the fact's especially when it come's to dating though there is no malevolence in there research and even if there interpretation is questionable at time's they also are a great wealth of information though maybe requiring unbiased interpretation and verification (I can't help but like them though and being a fellow Christian an loath to put them down on there opinion's, as you know many of them are very highly qualified and educated individual's whom have been pushed to the fringe by the increasing secularism and anti religious bias that is changing western culture and maybe not for the better).

Not related but unusual I just happened on this while surfing and though I do not know the site it has this story in not much detail.
www.theregister.co.uk...

www.theosophy-nw.org...

Our biggest problem is simple and can be summed up fairly quickly.

1. There is insufficient evidence to provide concise empirical evidence of a previous sophisticated (Technologically) civilisation.
2. Any traces of advanced technology would not even be handed to archaeologists as they would automatically be assumed to be from the near past and any archaeologist that stumbled on such would probably never stick his career, reputation and friendships on the line for such.
3. The Biological record that is available to us at this time does not show the existence of any previous species that may have been able to accomplish such and we believe from that same record our species to be a very young addition to the ecological record.
4. There are even if unfeasible to us alternative explanations to any anomalous find's or object's with the rare exception and the usual case of the discovery of such is that they tend to be found by non archaeologists and the site is usually destroyed in the process (such as mining, quarrying and other destructive procedures).
5. There are always other interests that may be put before the satiating of public curiosity.

Still it is through the search for this knowledge and the belief in it that archaeology has actually benefited over the years from private funding and public interest were the story of uncle fred the chimp like pre bipedal ancestor would not.

And there are still anomalous site's like this that may be not alien but ancient defence if the legends are to be believed.

www.forteantimes.com...
www.disclose.tv...
www.realufos.net...

Then you have a large number of underground city's in many part's of the world such as those found in turkey,

rarelyknown.org...

Which though maybe not that ancient do point to the way people would try to protect themselves and in Mesopotamia as you probably know they had poison gas they would prepare and place in clay jars that they would throw at there enemy thousands of years ago.

More recent and not ancient but really interesting nevertheless and this would give a modern take on the use of the underground.

sarenafuller.hubpages.com...

Then there is this one that would fit nicely into GargaIndias thread.

t-incognita.blogspot.co.uk...
moonshaft.net...
emvsinfo.blogspot.co.uk...
www.vembos.gr...

so add,
6. military interest.

One final thought I do not know if you have ever experience anything shall we say out of the ordinary but there are a lot of people whom believe in aliens visiting the earth and that anything not made by our civil aviation or military aviation or space company's therefore is alien but how do the explain these seemingly solid metallic object's flying through solid rock into mountains and even into the ground, while some may be alien what if and it is a what is they are actually ghost's like the roman soldiers a plumber once saw in chester while he was in the cellar (Basement) of a building performing repair's, later excavation revealed a roman road in the same place and orientation several feet below the cellar floor.
edit on 6-5-2013 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by LABTECH767
2. Any traces of advanced technology would not even be handed to archaeologists as they would automatically be assumed to be from the near past and any archaeologist that stumbled on such would probably never stick his career, reputation and friendships on the line for such.

I would draw your attention to the first thing an archaeology student learns:

Stratigraphy and the Law of Superposition
Stratigraphy is the oldest of the relative dating methods that archaeologists use to date things. Stratigraphy is based on the law of superposition-like a layer cake, the lowest layers must have been formed first. In other words, artifacts found in the upper layers of a site will have been deposited more recently than those found in the lower layers. Cross-dating of sites, when one compares geologic strata at one site with another location, and extrapolates relative ages in that manner is still used today, primarily when sites are far too old for absolute dates to have much meaning. the law of stratographic superposition



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Yes and they learned this from geology and vice versa, but there are times when the clearly defined stratification of layers has been disturbed either by animal digging or human activity, water channels can form through softer underlying strata and later deposits can be washed into the cavity that then may collapse concealing the water flow except for in some circumstances tell tale water born particle deposits, in other circumstance older deposits can be bought up and a good archaeologist can usually detect such factors but who said they were all good, My point being that if Billy Williams finds a metallic electrical structure in early Pleistocene deposits that he is excavating and if he is aware of the censure other more experience archaeologists and also geologists have come under in the past for claiming a few stone tools were too sophisticated and too early how likely is he to reveal it when it may also scare his financial backers away tarnish his reputation and leave him unable to find work in the field he love's.
An excavator operator, lets call him joey fats, digs into the ground and he pulls bits of wire and piping or corroded metal structure up, once he has decided they are not dangerous does he stop his hourly rate job to call the local museum, "oh I have just dug up some ancient phone line and a buried Cadillac I took time off my job and my boss is angry to ring to see if you wanted to stop our job and excavate the site", Nah I don't think so do you and would we in those circumstance.
edit on 6-5-2013 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by LABTECH767

Our biggest problem is simple and can be summed up fairly quickly.

1. There is insufficient evidence to provide concise empirical evidence of a previous sophisticated (Technologically) civilisation.


Correct and there is a great deal of information that points to their never have been such



2. Any traces of advanced technology would not even be handed to archaeologists as they would automatically be assumed to be from the near past and any archaeologist that stumbled on such would probably never stick his career, reputation and friendships on the line for such.


False, you obviously don't know any archaeologists. I would note that scientists sold out their countries during the cold war and were executed for same - yet they did it. You also don't seem to realise also that not all scientists value the items you put above.


3. The Biological record that is available to us at this time does not show the existence of any previous species that may have been able to accomplish such and we believe from that same record our species to be a very young addition to the ecological record.


True the best chance for an undetected earlier civilization would be non-human

Also you might find this list interesting



How a civilization can remain undetected
1. have very few people - but this will tend to limit your technological advancement
2. don't make fires
3. don't make pottery or bake clay
4. don't modifiy the environment in any way
5. don't domesticate animals or plants
6. don't eat shell fish (the middens are easy to spot)
7. don't bury people, destroy bodies at death and disperse the bones - crush the teeth
8. absolutely no use of stone for tools, do not modify ivory, bone or shells either
9. never disturb the earth (by driving in a stake)
10. don't hunt animals and if you do widely disperse their remains
11. move constantly to avoid a build-up of waste, both human and food remains
12. don't live near a lake or other place where sediments, pollen and pollutants gather
There if you do all that you'll be fairly undetectable




4. There are even if unfeasible to us alternative explanations to any anomalous find's or object's with the rare exception and the usual case of the discovery of such is that they tend to be found by non archaeologists and the site is usually destroyed in the process (such as mining, quarrying and other destructive procedures).


In some cases yes the high percentage of fraud is also a problem


5. There are always other interests that may be put before the satiating of public curiosity.

Still it is through the search for this knowledge and the belief in it that archaeology has actually benefited over the years from private funding and public interest were the story of uncle fred the chimp like pre bipedal ancestor would not.

And there are still anomalous site's like this that may be not alien but ancient defence if the legends are to be believed.


Famous scientist who get tenure, book deals and calls from National Geographic are the ones who find unique things - this is well understood by archaeologists - right Johnny Canuck? Said by a former archaeologists who never found anything particularly great.

Sorry ran out of time will look to answer this later



edit on 6/5/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 09:53 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


You give a reference which is supposed to give "exact" date. Have you read your reference?

Nowhere does it give an exact date. It gives minimum age (400K with an error of 50K) and maximum age (520K with an error of 60K).

This gives a range of 350K to 580K in scientific terms. So how did you arrive at 400K exact?

As regards "proof" of my post, it is based on physical artifacts, written records, and stories carried through generations.

I am in no hurry to provide proof. We shall provide proof when time is right.



posted on May, 7 2013 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by GargIndia


yawn

I take your third refusal to name your source and show evidence as concession of your point - you've lost

Bye troll
edit on 7/5/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2013 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Hmm right, It is blind arrogance and idiocy to discount oral tradition GargIndia is most certainly not a troll as an internet troll does not enter into discussion, I can understand Harte and respect him for he is what he is and his opinions carry weight with me but as I said if you bothered to read the post the Indian tradition of passing knowledge is oral and in an earlier response you countered with the big fish story, i.e. that any oral information is open to exaggeration but if you read what I said you would have noted that I paid attention to that before your comment and pointed out that the Brahman and Yogi traditions took that into account long ago and use training methods that are older than the written word to prevent such, as the knowledge they pass on is seen as holy.

We all know how the institution can band together to destroy a career so there is really no point in creating an argument out of it, during the cold war many scientist's (and I am a trained scientist to degree level, UMIST, whom because of head injury that I am now full recovered except for a nagging inability in mathematics which has stayed with me since the head injury's did not follow that career path so I am not simply a layman ok) betrayed there masters because of political ideology or the wish for a better life and there are a number of geologist's and even some archaeologists whom have had there career's and reputations destroyed because of disclosing archaeological finds that did not fit the established criteria, One American woman in Mexico whom recovered some startlingly early find's had her career destroyed and never worked again though those finds are gaining acceptance long after she would have retired anyway so what good was it to her, one of the former leading experts in the field of south American civilisation in the 1960's had his career destroyed and he today is regarded as a joke in the archaeological community because his dating of Tiwanaku was too early by far and even later non aligned archaeologist though halving his dating of 26000 bc to 12600 bc have been censured in the community.

Here is an interesting page from two money chasers but it does sum up more that many people have a very poor unchangeable opinion of the entrenched establishment.

www.world-mysteries.com...
www.viewzone.com...
members.iimetro.com.au...

and whom can blame them when the establishment treats them as idiots.

I will also state that some of these fellows are far better archaeologists than those whom are constantly trying to discredit them.

As the geo political influence shift's east we will also see a change over time in the attitude toward archaeology as it has never been an unbiased field and barely classifies as a science, Archaeologist's vary in there scientific validity greatly and some are worthy of the title scientist, usually those with high level scientific credentials in other fields such as geology or physics as without these they are bound by the dogma of there profession.



posted on May, 7 2013 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by Hanslune
 


Hmm right, It is blind arrogance and idiocy to discount oral tradition GargIndia is most certainly not a troll as an internet troll does not enter into discussion,


You haven't been around the internet much huh?

Here is what you do, make wild statements and when asked to defend them attack the other person and refuse to defend the statements.

Its called being a troll




Indian tradition of passing knowledge is oral


Yes I did read that so why didn't he just say that? How do you tell the difference between someone making stuff up and repeating an ancient legend? Please explain






We all know how the institution can band together to destroy a career so there is really no point in creating an argument out of it


Actually there is, yes that happens but there is usually a reason for it, a motive




during the cold war many scientist's (and I am a trained scientist to degree level, UMIST, whom because of head injury that I am now full recovered except for a nagging inability in mathematics which has stayed with me since the head injury's did not follow that career path so I am not simply a layman ok) betrayed there masters because of political ideology or the wish for a better life and there are a number of geologist's and even some archaeologists whom have had there career's and reputations destroyed because of disclosing archaeological finds that did not fit the established criteria, One American woman in Mexico whom recovered some startlingly early find's had her career destroyed and never worked again


If you mean Virginia Steen-McIntyre she was a Geologist and had a successful career as a PhD



though those finds are gaining acceptance long after she would have retired anyway so what good was it to her, one of the former leading experts in the field of south American civilisation in the 1960's had his career destroyed and he today is regarded as a joke in the archaeological community because his dating of Tiwanaku was too early by far and even later non aligned archaeologist though halving his dating of 26000 bc to 12600 bc have been censured in the community.


Not sure who you mean here if you meant Arthur Posnansky?

If so he made up a date by using bad methodogy that was rejected after scientific dating came into effect



posted on May, 7 2013 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Ok I will accept that about Posnansky and have already accepted Harte's opinion on that site as even though the site architecture is very amazing the style of the art that is embodied in the carved skull's for instance is fully in keeping with only slightly later site's else were but something just does not sit right for me and never will unless there is ever an excavation on a scale similar to the other south American site's.

What do you think of the Bosnian pyramid's though (Personally I think they are merely a ploy to attract tourists but what if),
If they are real then it would maybe suggest an inter ice age culture in Europe that dabbled in large scale building but not as advanced as the Egyptians.

On many condolence site's there are what I regard as troll's whom get some sadistic kick out of insulting the family's and the deceased so in Britain that is what we generally call internet troll's.
But no I haven't been around the net much, I wont be further commenting on this page but would like to thank Smiley girl for opening this thread as It has been a pleasant distraction and interesting.

Here is another site with a list of interesting but mostly debunked or not accepted subjects, don't put them down till you see them all though,
www.anomalies-unlimited.com...
edit on 7-5-2013 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by LABTECH767
Ok I will accept that about Posnansky and have already accepted Harte's opinion on that site as even though the site architecture is very amazing the style of the art that is shown in the carved skull's for instance is full in keeping with only slightly later site's else were but something just does not sit right for me and never will unless there is ever an excavation on a scale similar to the other south American site's.

The site and surrounding area has been under study for a hundred years, including full excavations where such excavating won't damage what's left of the site.

The fact that you are unaware of a thing does not negate the reality of that thing.

Perhaps you should look further into topics prior to announcing that said topics have not been investigated fully.

For your perusal:

link 1

Link 2

Link 3

The second link above leads to a preview of an article by Alan Kollata. This is the guy whose work you want to search out. His work at Tiahuanaco is the most recent I'm aware of and is still ongoing (as far as I know.)

Note the title of the paper in the third link. Ironic, given your thought that "excavation on a scale similar to the other south American site's" has not occured at Tiahuanaco.

Harte



posted on May, 7 2013 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by smyleegrl
 



Anything made from plastic would be totally disintegrated, all electronic components, most objects made from metal other then gold, silver, nickel iron and aluminum would be disintegrated, anything made from concrete would have disintegrated so basically nothing would be left of our city's except glass, natural cut stone and a few metal objects....everything else would be gone.



posted on May, 7 2013 @ 04:25 PM
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This is my new favorite thread that I will be trudging through in the next few weeks (work, off-shoots to the discussion, etc)

Excellent first post, and some even better responses.

S&F, and more *s coming.



posted on May, 8 2013 @ 03:54 AM
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Well, all in all, I am really hoping that if we do find evidence of an ancient civilization, it'll be either on the moon or mars, No BS. There are just too many anomalies to suggest otherwise, I would post links, but the hardcore skeptics would only dismiss it, so there is'nt really any point to do so.
But in all honesty, the Moon and planet Mars, thats the key, has always been the key to our ancient past.






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