Help me understand why you support Bush...

What does murdering helpless babies have to do with faith?

How can you not just have a gut feeling about killing babies?

I am pretty sure there is another thread where you can debate abortion. But I do think the fact that an abortion debate has become the subject of this thread does give those of us scratching our heads, some insight into the cognitive process of a Bush voter.

Nerdling, that was very insultive, you oaf. The South is not still "pissy", and we are aren't rising up. WE are standing fast in our position that has been held since the beginning of the nation. It is not the South that has changed. The heartland has not drifted conservtive, the rural folk didn't throw away their beads and lesther vests for the Bible and the constitution; they never had the beads to begin with!

It is the Coastal metropolis areas that have swung hard left, farther left than the Soviets could ever have hoped would happen. The Democratic party was highjacked, it left Zell Miller instead of the other way around, and now the South is Republican because the Democratic party took ill on us.

And by the way, I can and do vouch for SO.

When "Theyrehere" first stopped lurking and actually joined in on the conversation, I was modding the Religion section. Our fearless leader participated in that forum in a very object manner, never offending anyone yet at the same time expecting the respect he gave. I kind of imagine SO as the computer geek version of John Wayne, if that is possible.

Anyway, I was looking for another pats....., um, I mean, volunteer; yeah, volunteer, to help in the religion section so that I could get the HECK out of the ATS sewer system, and Theyrehere, as he was known then, took the job.

Can you believe it? After suck tricjery, Bill still accepts my phone calls and refers to me as a friend!

Hey, big man, lemme hold a dollar!!!

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
However, a fearless ability to admit mistakes and understanding of when/how to compromise is much more important. These two more important leadership traits are missing in Mr. Bush, but somehow, through the cult of his personality, he has led many to believe it doesn't matter.

With all due respect Skeptic,

I believe this area may be where we may differ a great deal. I have yet to see any mistake made by the present administration, to date, that would justify public acknowledgement or an apology.

Every administration is faced with many decisions that is crucial and vital for the sake of national security. With the whole world turned up-side down after the tragedy of 11 SEP 01, we couldn't afford to not go into Iraq.

Since before AUG 1990, Saddam Hussein had been a threat to, not only the region surrounding Iraq, but to the the rest of the world, some greater and some lesser.

We can say "if" and speculate of many things, but the event of 11 SEP forced the United States to act in a different manner in, regards to our enemies, than to sit and scrutinize their activities and movements.

I'm sorry that you see many people having an attitude of "it doesn't matter", because I see the opposite. I see people having the attitude that "We the people..." matter. The United States should never become followers lest we desire to become weaker. This is what I see.

This is where we are finding some of the meat of the Bush "cult of personality" phenomenon. I'm not buying that Bush is a true "born again" Christian, given his deeds and the acts of those under him. I believe he is using the guise of faith to corral those of faith. For an example of a President that both exuded obvious sincere faith, one needs look no further than Jimmy Carter.

We all know people with the same personality traits the each candidate possess. I find that the people with Senator Kerry's personality are less trustworthy than the traits that President Bush possesses. He's loud, flambouyant and negative. There is an instant, a week or so ago, that I did see Senator Kerry possess genuine concern over the circumstances that Israel faces. I do have more respect for Senator Kerry after seeing this commercial than before.

To me, faking "Born Again" is a task that is impossible to achieve. One can't proclaim the name of Jesus if that person has little or no faith in our Savior.

I'll agree that ex-President Carter is a genuine man of fatih. I can say that he is a great diplomat, but let me say that in todays world where diplomacy fails, action must be taken, whether it's popular or not.

Being a "good ole-boy" don't work with terrorists.

But he is the self-proclaimed "leader of the free world!" He has said on many occasions that he is "changing the world." How can a person have this desire on one hand, and completely ignore world opinion on the other? It simply doesn't make sense, and will only create enemies, not friends.

When President Bush talks of changing the world, he's not talking of greed or self-centeredness. I believe his desire is for the world to experience the freedom of what he knows and cherish. It's also my belief that if the world world see and live the freedom that I live each day, they would have a very different opinion of us and seek this same freedom that I and President Bush, as well as every other American (Democrat or Republican), take for granted.

Freedom, to me, is every bit a precious as water and air. Without one or the other, we will surely cease to "live."



[edit on 4/11/04 by Intelearthling]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Do you really believe that, if elected, Kerry would have initiated laws limiting how and where the Bible could be distributed? Or that he would force laws across all states legalizing gay marriage? These things are not true, and using people's faith as a tool to deceive is immoral.

I don�t believe those things, however you must acknowledge that Christianity has been and is under attack�.largely an unfair attack. For example, the law suits across the land that are attacking religious (christian) symbols. Another example is California barring voluntary Christian prayer groups on school property�.yet college credits are given out to watchers of orgies, extra credit for involvement, disguised as sex education; also symbols of the intafadi and banners of hamas are allowed at graduation. You can�t but look at some of the things that are happening and say wtf. It�s not so much that I believe Kerry would be an active participant but a willing appeaser. Look at his own state, a set of activist judges are going to by default ram gay marriage down on the rest of the country�s throats�.you can not deny that; without intervention that will carry the day. Would Kerry fight that? No, he would make up some lame excuse, like opposition didn�t pass the global test or something equally silly. So would he create the laws�.no he would wait for the judges to create them and then rubber stamp�em.

A personal example, on the local university the Gore Liebermann campaign visited campus and teamsters were disarming (signs) and keeping young republicans at bay. Security was alerted and despite them having teamster shirts and standing in the same place (pointed out to security) they were not asked to leave. The local marine recruiter was invited on campus to speak to an assemblage of students; a law professor (I believe the dean) excused her class and then heckled him rather loudly until he left. Did the university reprimand her or ask her to do the job she was hired to do�..no they quoted free speech�although it is not a matter for free speech, and dismissed the actions. Later when a young man was caught handing out republican material he was summarily asked to leave the campus. I personally witnessed all of these. This is more along the lines of what I and I believe your reverend was referring to. The fact that the democrats in large part only cry foul when it�s their right being violated, in general they somewhat just look the other way or if they even try they come up with some really lame reason for why they shouldn�t act.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
If I were to lay blame, I'd put at least 2/3 of it in the RNC lap. The clear strategy was to divide and polarize. Those who enjoy their position on one pole often don't see this.

I suppose your comment about poles is correct�.for it is only too obvious that the democratic strategy for a decade or more has been divide and polarize�.utilizing socioeconomic, racial, and gender lines.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I simply can't see how you can say that. In a massive voter turnout, we're cut statistically in half. And geographically, it's a tale of two coasts and the middle/south. The divide is deep, broad, and strong.

it�s quite simple you are concentrated on the bush-kerry race and are oblivious to the rest of the election�.I believe this is the sixth election in a row that democrats have lost position across the country in rather spectacular fashion. Forget bush look at what is happening in all other political positions�.I personally believe that Liebermann, Clark, Gore, Clinton, or Gephardt could have defeated bush�.however look at the senate and the house they are quickly becoming more red than they have been since the twenties. hawaii was in play...that's just laughable.


[edit on 4-11-2004 by keholmes]

All I have to say on this subject is: Almost all of Europe, Asia and other western countries are laughing at the United States now. Osama isn't happy either.. I just hope for your sake and safety, Americans, that the Bushwack will at least TRY to listen to you and the rest of the world instead of just fighting his egocentric war for world power. I just sense a resemblence to a guy from Austria some 60 years ago, only he had a moustache...

Originally posted by phlake
All I have to say on this subject is: Almost all of Europe, Asia and other western countries are laughing at the United States now. Osama isn't happy either.. I just hope for your sake and safety, Americans, that the Bushwack will at least TRY to listen to you and the rest of the world instead of just fighting his egocentric war for world power. I just sense a resemblence to a guy from Austria some 60 years ago, only he had a moustache...

Again...the world keeps forgetting that we were attacked by radical Islamic terrorists We didn't go to war just for no reason, and the US is not Spain, we are not going to lay down and wait for Islamic radicals to attack again... Look at what their goal is to submit the world to Islam under a caliphate... This was not invented by the Bush administration...we were also attacked several times before Bush was in power by Islamic terrorists...

Most Europeans think that staying on the good side of terrorists will stop their attacks...it is not so....Osama has stated quite a few times he want's, with the rest of the radical Islamic groups, those lands that were Muslim back... If you don't think their goal is not going to affect you in the future, or most of Europe, you are in store for a rude awakening... Even parts of France, all of Spain and other parts of Europe were Muslim in the Middle Ages...

Originally posted by phlake
Almost all of Europe, Asia and other western countries are laughing at the United States now.

I'm glad to hear they're having a good time. Please warn them not to laugh too much or they might get light-headed.

Originally posted by phlake
Osama isn't happy either..

You say that like it's a bad thing. I don't get it.

Originally posted by phlake
I just hope for your sake and safety, Americans, that the Bushwack will at least TRY to listen to you and the rest of the world instead of just fighting his egocentric war for world power.

He has been listening. So have we. You have our response. Have a nice day.

Originally posted by phlake
I just sense a resemblence to a guy from Austria some 60 years ago, only he had a moustache...

Congratulations! You win the Godwin Award.

It takes a special kind of person to win a Goddie!

There has been alot mentioned regarding abortion and the "killing of innocent babies". Being one of the major platforms Bush ran on I can understand the devision in our nation. What I don't understand is how people can demonize someone for having an abortion on the grounds that you are killing an innocent baby. Now I have complete respect for our armed forces and thank them for what they do for our country. But how come killing a grown human being is any different. Why has killing innocent civilians in a different country than ours deemed acceptable when aborting an unborn child is viewed as unjust.

I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth controll. However, I do understand someone deciding to have one in the interest of the child and the well being of the mother. Where are all of the pro life people after the child has been born?

Simple, a baby doesn't have to be responsable for his/her actions.

And back to the war, grown men have to be held for their actions.

[edit on 5-11-2004 by LostSailor]

Originally posted by phlake
All I have to say on this subject is: Almost all of Europe, Asia and other western countries are laughing at the United States now. Osama isn't happy either.. I just hope for your sake and safety, Americans, that the Bushwack will at least TRY to listen to you and the rest of the world instead of just fighting his egocentric war for world power. I just sense a resemblence to a guy from Austria some 60 years ago, only he had a moustache...

WE well remember that guy with the funny mustache from a few decades ago. WE lost the best of a generation from that particular situtaion. We could have made peace with him and profited financially from the casual friendship, but we chose not to do that. We entered the war and stood by our friends in need. Of course, it might not have gotten to that point had it not been for the Chmaberlain mentality, but that is water under the bridge.

We aren't fighting an "egocentric war for power", we are fighting for out friends, family and neighbors, in case you've not paid attention to world events for a little over three years. You wonder why we really don't care what the heck you people say? Reread what you just said about our current situation and contemplate for a few moments. Then, reread my first paragraph to this reply, and contemplate the differences between us and many of you.

And furthermore, just in case you missed it on November 2nd, we really do not give a rats rear end if you are laughing at us or screaming at us. We know you really don't have our interests in mind when you tell us things. You couldn't care less if we are burned to the ground, as long as your EU boat is not rocked. You guys have made that perfectly clear.

Thanks for the advice, I'll use it for what it is worth.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by magestica
I could not wait until the election came around to see Bush get voted out.

I prefer if this thread stayed focused on U.S. citizens who voted for Bush.
Thanks.

How two-faced you are SO!

In the ATS poll for placing your votes for Bush/Kerry, you encouraged non-Americans to cast their vote!

So now you don't care to hear the opinions of non-Americans who support Bush.

Pfft! Pfft! Pfft!

P.S. It's news to me that magestica is not American.

I have to disagree with your premise SO, you are concerned about understanding why Bush won, when the correct inquiry is why is there an overwhelming Republican/Conservative mandate? George Bush winning, and winning handily is at the forefront of the current news cycle, but the near across the board dismissal of the Liberal/Democrat agenda is what begs for scrutiny. The legislative branch is firmly within the control of the Republicans, and with it the upcoming Supreme and Federal Appeals Court confirmations. How could America eschew the services of so many willing Democrats? Why does a tenured Senate Minority leader get tossed out on his ear? Why would a Clintonite (�they� must like him, because everyone loved Clinton) like Bowles get his head handed to him in a Senatorial race, or the father of a famous Hollywood actor fail to garner support in his race?

How? By being so removed from mainstream America that they talked themselves out of the race before it even happened. �America� doesn�t identify with Hollywood actors, rock stars, heiresses, radical socialists, outspoken splinter groups that denigrate their (middle America�s) �backward lifestyle�, the enlightened spiritualist (now is the moment that I�ll take to inform those that don�t know, Mirthful Me is not a Christian, nor does he subscribe to any religion that has less than a 5,000 year track record, or can be considered �Western�), progressive social agendas, and Massachusetts politicians in general (please abstain from brining up JFK in 1960, he probably didn�t win that election either). �America� does identify with basic humanity, morality, work ethic, being a little behind the times and out of style, paying your own way, mom, apple pie and Ford (hate Chevy myself ). We�re boring. We stoically plod along, brushing off the barbs of �stupid�, �idiot�, �zealot�, go to work, hope for a better life for our kids (for those that have them), take a vacation, and pay all the bills. We want someone like us, plain and simple.

I would vote for another viable candidate if one was presented, one wasn�t, nor is there any appreciable movement towards solidifying a third party that can muster the respect of the American press, and subsequently the American people. A breaking point is in the offing, but I doubt the American people will come out on top when that point is reached. We have four years to make a choice, lament that which is in the past, or work towards an agreeable and prosperous future� We can cast our �vote� on that referendum starting now.

For reference purposes I�ve included the voting distributions by county, RANT has a really nice one in purple as well.

2000 Presidential Election



2004 Presidential Election

Originally posted by Majic
Congratulations! You win the Godwin Award.

It takes a special kind of person to win a Goddie!

Majic: I humbly decline the award, as to not being aware of it and at the same time I'm wondering who Bush has been listening to, as you say in your reply.

Thomas Crowne: For yuor information; Norway is not a member of the EU.


Now, I understand the reactions of many of you, but if you were able to see yourself from the outside one day, you might be surprised how your mighty country really looks and acts from time to time. Then again; what did Iraq have to do with the war on terror? I believe invading Iraq was the opposite of common sense, and that terrorism will rise to new hights due to this. Good to get rid of Saddam, but every action has a reaction -in this case more violence, more innocent people killed -and last but not least: MANY young Americans and other western people lost their life fighting for nothing. Imagine what the money spent on not finding WMD in Iraq could have done for the United States. Free healthcare, free education etc would easily be financed with the billions of $ spent on this totally useless and most certainly backfiring war.

George "of the jungle" Bush could have given you so much more than LESS American lives -which seems to be the result of this..


[edit on 5/11/04 by phlake]

Phlake, excuse me if your attitude is EU. No listen one more time, I realize you are over there and I am over here, and it just might be that I have watched this whole War on Terror a little closer than you, which is why I am going to assume is the reason you continue to spout of erroneous crap in reference to it. And to clarify one more time, as I've done a couple times on the board now, the reason why we aren't listening to you Euros preaching at us us because we don't care what you think. We know our best interest will not be looked after by you and it is the job of our president to do that. This thread is not a place to wage an Opinion on America's job on the War on Terror, and furthermore, I don't care what you think about it. I've heard for decades the chanting of Islamic people, "Death to America!", so considering this, the opinion of an Norseman isn't that earth shattering. And, if we could step outside and look at ourselves, we might just get a chuckle or feel emarrassment from time to time, but guess what, did it occur to you that you say that as if all of you are perfect? You see, that is indicative of the Euro attitude we are sick of, pal! We don't care for your condescending attitude. So, you may respectfully keep it.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Valhall
I'm hoping to hear what you think caused this push to fail.

Simple, the Democrats lacked leadership and conviction of policy. Their only strong stance was anti-Bush... that's not enough. The young came out in droves, their fire was strong, their desire for change was stoked, but in the end, they were also divided; but not as much as the nation is.

However, this generation of young (19-28) is the next "great generation". More on that later.

You still don't get it! The Democrats lost because we, after years of liberal mainstream media misinformation assaults and public school social reengineering barrages, still don't buy into that liberal bull crap! It had nothing to do with leadership and conviction of policy, the Kerry/Edwards team was the most liberal team created, and people turned out in droves to send them away. I don't care if your leadership is well organized and there is a conviction that is out of this world, if they continue to stay out of step with Joe America, they will become as irrelevant as the 8 track player.

And, I think that should have helped you understand. George won because he is not a blithering liberal. WE do not like blithering liberals.

Originally posted by phlake
All I have to say on this subject is: Almost all of Europe, Asia and other western countries are laughing at the United States now. Osama isn't happy either.. I just hope for your sake and safety, Americans, that the Bushwack will at least TRY to listen to you and the rest of the world instead of just fighting his egocentric war for world power. I just sense a resemblence to a guy from Austria some 60 years ago, only he had a moustache...

Many of us aren't laughing - this is not funny
Most of us have governments equally party to the Nazi hegemony represented by Bush
The UK, one could say, has a controlling influence on the US in the back rooms of the Bank of England and Temple Bar, even though puppet Tony plays doggy to puppet George in public
A full rundown of similarities here
www.hermes-press.com...



[edit on 5-11-2004 by dh]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
(...) You see, that is indicative of the Euro attitude we are sick of, pal! We don't care for your condescending attitude. So, you may respectfully keep it.

Now don't curse yourself. You all came from Europe and started up in 1881 so we are almost countrymen. Why are you so hostile towards Europe being so sick of it? WE and most other countries in the world listen to you and the others in this world community so why shouldn't you do the same? Just wondering. This is actually a totally different discussion, and as far as you watching the WoT closer than all Europeans I'd just like to ask in what way? Have you learned everything from i.e FOX or CNN? -Or other, uncontrolled/uncencored, objective sources?

WE left Europe to start our own country with our own separate nation. We are different; our bloodline dictates very little.
Again, you look not at yourself but at me. How is it that I can be so silly as not realize my blood is European and therefore I should agree with you guys? Also interesting you consider your media unbiased whereas any information I get from within my own country must be biased.

When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. Step away from the shovel.