Who receives God's Grace? To law or not to law?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Here is an example:
"The wages of sin is death."

Paul said that in Romans, personifying "Sin" as a kingdom where you are a government employee of that kingdom, where it is under obligation to give you a ration as its servant. It just happens to be that it is under no obligation to you other than for you to die.

Death is earned and deserved for sin.

That is not something expounded upon by Paul but is you forming your own conclusions. Death just happens because it is natural in this world that people die. The point that Paul is making is not that you 'deserve' it, but that pursuing a sinful lifestyle gets you nowhere because it has nothing to offer.
In contrast, Paul points out that pursuing godliness does have its potential reward, that God has something available to hand out, which is eternal life, something "Sin" does not have.

And there is the doctrine of rewards and crowns given for certain works.

"Doctrine" is the right word, vs. biblical teaching. Another way for the "Free Grace" cult to skirt around the truth. The truth being the real doctrine of the Bible that everyone will be judged. Your cult turns that into an awards ceremony, by finding an obscure definition for a Greek word and expanding on that one, into a whole blown up thing of the imagination.

reply to post by sacgamer25

I would agree. Jesus did pay the price to teach us that he was telling the truth.

Metaphorically speaking. Jesus didn't literally pay anyone anything but he did put words into action and he did have to die before he could be resurrected.

Thank God, for the one man who pursued God's will perfectly the Christ, the son of God.

Jesus was filled with the spirit of God.

reply to post by bb23108


For anyone who reads this and considers themselves Christian or those of you who simply believe in Christs message of love I pose the challenge below.

I know what the church says Paul says. But listen to the message I am sharing, it is not against Christ. Am I saying anything against Christ?

Christ said I am the light of this world. He claimed he was the source of love for the world. Paul’s message was the one that was intended to be used to create this Christ persona centered religion. The intent was from God that Paul’s letters be written that way.

If you simply use love as a synonym when you read Paul’s letters. Jesus called himself the son of man. Because the later interpretation is love of man. So you see wherever you see, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, Son of God, wisdom, knowledge, holiness, righteousness, if you substitute the word love the key to Paul’s letter will be revealed to you, there may be a few more but I think you get the point.

I know you will find the truth about Paul’s letters if you will have a little faith in a brother who’s message reflects yours. Paul did not disagree, but what has happened was prophesied so that today you may believe.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the WISDOM THAT GOD GAVE HIM. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

You see the church has distorted scripture and it will be there destruction just as prophesied it is happening. When? From the look at it a lot of people are ready to walk away. Religion isn't helping anyone and I think we can see that now. I do think churches remain as places people go to congregate and discuss love, family, friends and just become like the community centers of old. I'm a dreamer, I know.

You have to start over and assume you have no idea what he is saying. This is hard yes but it is the only way. Substitute love as a synonym and you will see with your eyes, what you already know in your heart. The message is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Grace is unmerited favor . . .

There is no Bible verse that says that.
The "Free Grace" cult tacks on the "unmerited" part in order to support its heretical doctrines of unconditional salvation.

Grace is the same with God, He gives grace not because we earn it or deserve it, but because He is gracious and good.

God is 'gracious' in that He offers salvation to everyone. That graciousness though does not extend into the next world after this life. There is a difference what happens then, where everyone is not on an equal footing because there is an accounting that takes place, based on what the person did with that opportunity graciously offered by God, in this life.

reply to post by jmdewey60


God’s unconditional love is free. You really need to add that to your theology. I promise it will only enhance the message. At least contemplate that God really just loves everyone.

Try to fathom that everything that happened was somehow orchestrated by him, using our free will choices that were known to him from the begging to bring about our spiritual evolution where we all want to love one another. You have to believe he at least could step in when he wanted it could be said if he let it happen he also wanted it to happen. To say anything less is to take power away from God.

Once you can embrace that all of this did happen by “his will done on earth as it is in heaven” than you can accept that he truly can and in fact does forgive us all and this is what he son is preaching. I know the church stops there. You know the message starts there and so do I.

But you can’t keep trying to feed infants solid food, that is not loving. What is important is that we teach that God loves all and it is up to you whether or not you will worship/pursue love. Because we know that love requires works, faith without works is dead, love without action is meaningless.

That is it we need to teach nothing more than this. If they can’t accept that God loves them and that they need to do works to find love, than they won’t believe in repentance because they have not yet believed in love.

You need to change your view on what the word Grace means. Don’t be afraid to believe that God loves everyone. I didn’t say everyone is off the hook, even Jesus condemned the Pharisees. I do not pretend to know what that means but I imagine it means we don’t have to concern ourselves with judging others, the father is perfectly capable.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

It's summed up beautifly in Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

That is not a summation.
Ephesians 2: 1-10 is one continuous sentence and has to be taken as a whole.
The theme of the sentence is the gracious quality of God in His mercy towards Men in that He offers a way towards salvation, through faith in Jesus.
The grace of God manifests itself in the redemption by Jesus of all mankind from the restrictions of the old written Law of Moses, so that inclusion into Christ's kingdom is open to all, including gentiles.
Entering "Christ" is not by keeping that said Law, otherwise it would be only to Jews, who could then boast about their 'natural' superiority.
"Saved" here is a Pauline term which means that you are taken into the camp, as a sort of analog to the same concept as used in the Old Testament to describe being a member in good standing in the nation of Israel, or being cast "outside the camp".

reply to post by Akragon

He didn't say the world is condemned already...

The worldly system that killed Jesus was judged and condemned by that act.
The world since then continuously stands in judgment based on what people do in regards to God's spirit working in the world to convince people of the truth of Jesus.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It's summed up beautifly in Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

That is not a summation.
Ephesians 2: 1-10 is one continuous sentence and has to be taken as a whole.
The theme of the sentence is the gracious quality of God in His mercy towards Men in that He offers a way towards salvation, through faith in Jesus.
The grace of God manifests itself in the redemption by Jesus of all mankind from the restrictions of the old written Law of Moses, so that inclusion into Christ's kingdom is open to all, including gentiles.
Entering "Christ" is not by keeping that said Law, otherwise it would be only to Jews, who could then boast about their 'natural' superiority.
"Saved" here is a Pauline term which means that you are taken into the camp, as a sort of analog to the same concept as used in the Old Testament to describe being a member in good standing in the nation of Israel, or being cast "outside the camp".

edit on 19-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Let me do something for you; let me restate your own words. Maybe this is what will help you. Please keep an open mind. I think you will understand this time.

The love of God manifest self in the redemption of Jesus from the resurrection from the old written Law of Moses, so that inclusion into the kingdom of love is open to all.

Entering love is not done by keeping the Law, otherwise love would be available only to the Jews, who then could boast about how much God loves them.

Do you not see that no one should boast because the lord loves us all. Rather we should boast in the love that we share with others. So that our boasting is consistent with our actions.

reply to post by bb23108

. . . not just by trying to hold on to some mental beliefs based in Paul's dogmatic revision of Jesus' message.

My suggestion for you to do, if you have not already done so, is to look at the specific passages that you think does that, and then compare those to the list of generally accepted authentic writings of Paul, which is:
Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon.

You may find that the objectionable material that you are referring to was most likely not written by Paul.

The other, very important thing to keep in mind, the descriptions of what Paul supposedly said in Acts is not accurate but what the writer of that book imagined Paul would have said, given those circumstances.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Christ said I am the light of this world. He claimed he was the source of love for the world.

The first thing you mention is in the Bible, in John 8:12. He is saying that he leads people along the path of truth.
I don't see the other thing in there.
It may be that through Jesus we understand that God loves us.
I think you are relying on this false notion that Jesus and God are the same person.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Try to fathom that everything that happened was somehow orchestrated by him, using our free will choices that were known to him from the begging to bring about our spiritual evolution where we all want to love one another.

There is nothing to "fathom" about those things you mentioned, as far as I am concerned.
I don't believe that God on purpose created an evil universe for people to suffer and die so they can "grow" or "learn" or "be tested".
I think people are in this material universe in order to be actual beings, rather than an idea, or a thought, or potential beings.
I think that probably the universe as we know it happens to be the best one we could make at the time, and it is just this way because that is the current state it is in, where the great cosmic dragon, to personify it, is still alive and on the loose, this immense whirlwind churning up the creation to form this whole great thing which is our universe.

The point being is like Jesus said, there are stumbling blocks, and that is unavoidable, but what can be avoided is being one yourself, to add to other's destruction.
God Himself is not in that category, according to my 'theology'.

To say anything less is to take power away from God.

I do, on a constant basis, as much as I can, not from what God assigns to Himself, but from what man has wrongly added to His supposed responsibilities.
I think people even who come off to me as being basically atheists are shocked by what I do and to me it is an indication of how deeply ingrained it is in people's psyche, how God is really to blame, whether they allow themselves to openly express it or not, for everything evil that happens.
I, for one, have been freed from that hatred of God by not holding Him responsible for this situation that we find ourselves in. God is trying to fix things but we all need to join the effort to make it work, it's our world, we created it to live in and we have to make it better ourselves and God will help.

reply to post by jmdewey60


No, I claim that Jesus is the light of the world created in Genesis 1:3. All scripture agrees with this interpretation. The most commonly used synonym for light used in the bible is love.

Jesus claimed that he was the light of the world; he claimed that he was the love of the world. Rather the spirit of love, the Holy Spirit, who came in the form of Christ, so that he could teach us how to love. He refers to the father also as light. Meaning that he and the father are one, because both are love.

This is why the Pharisees thought him crazy. But if you listen to him you see that he truly does teach love like no other. So why think him crazy when he says he is the light/love of the world.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Do you not see that no one should boast because the lord loves us all.

An illustration could be the story of Noah's ark.
That was a demonstration of God's love, that Noah was given instructions on building the ark, and that he preached to the people while building it.
Ultimately, when the rains came, God loved those who listened and entered.
If God still loved the others, it didn't do much good at that point.
God shows his love by the offer of free admission to everyone, to join in Christ.
Those who refuse do not share that love for long.

reply to post by sacgamer25

I claim that Jesus is the light of the world created in Genesis 1:3. All scripture agrees with this interpretation. The most commonly used synonym for light used in the bible is love.

I don't think any of that holds up.
It is all your imagination.
People do benefit from other people being Christians because it makes the world a better place.
That is part of the good things God brings everyone because He loves us.
To benefit beyond that, it takes actually being a Christian, and I think that because that is what the Bible tells me.
If we threw out the Bible, I have my doubts that Christianity would exist and we would have something else like belief that nothing is real and we live in an illusion where nothing matters.
Well it does matter.

The only honest human answer to a question like that is there
is absolutely no way to know, interpreting the bible is such a
misnomer because anyone can claim to have it correct and who
can say if they are right or not? no one really, unless god actually
came down and let us know, which has never happened and as
evidence of that i offer the untold amount of denominations fracturing
christianity, the truth is even religious people realize all they are doing
is tossing the dice and swearing they are the winner, all along
knowing full well that its honestly just their feelings that have
manipulated their opinion on things. just because you feel you
are correct does not mean you are, it just means you feel ok
in the limited choices and knowledge you have.

It all really comes down to the truth, the truth is religion has no
way to show anyone which one is "the right one" because they
all offer the same evidence, faith, and when judged equally,
they all seem just as ridiculous as the next, they don't offer
real solutions to anything, they all claim to have answers they
do not provide once questioned etc. etc. etc. religion is the
claim of truth with the lack of evidence, faith is the filler for
when people point this out.......

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Saying Grace is not free is like saying someone owns the love of God. The bible says in Geneses the first thing created was the light of the world. Jesus claimed he was the light, it is also said he is the first born over all creation. Jesus was claiming that he was the love of the world. Meaning the first thing God created was love.

All things were created by love, for love, through love. Nothing was created before love. Therefore God loves all things since the light of the world is love and it is a free gift for all.

In the beginning there was just God and then he said let there be light - then there was light - God saw the light and it was good. There is nothing more than God and the light that is seen.
Before you there is light - can you see it? Is it good?
The light is not somewhere else - the light is ever present.
To search outside this ever present light for more is to 'worship another'. Seeking in time for more will cause suffering.

This moment of presence is the presence of the lord.
The father (the seeing aspect) and the son (the seen aspect - the light) are one.

reply to post by bloodreviara

interpreting the bible is such a misnomer because anyone can claim to have it correct and who can say if they are right or not?

You can see when people have proof-text theology, where they make up a theory that they like, then skower the Bible looking for snippets that you can take out of context.
Arrange this collection from all diverse parts that don't really have any relationship, to look as if it supports the theory.
Add in some made-up definitions for words, blow up some imaginary interpretations based on choosing definitions for words that do not really fit.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I don’t agree. I believe we know what can liberate us from what we have created. Love is the word that describes this liberation. If we find anything short of love we will never be liberated. What other concept would you be liberated under. In order to worship and pursue God he must be real. Therefore he must be love. Because there is no other concept worth worship/pursuit.

reply to post by bloodreviara


I make the claim that I can interpret scripture. Give me one you don't understand. The difference between me and them is I will teach you how to love they can only teach you how to help them pay the bills. They call this Tithing.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I don’t agree. I believe we know what can liberate us from what we have created. Love is the word that describes this liberation. If we find anything short of love we will never be liberated. What other concept would you be liberated under. In order to worship and pursue God he must be real. Therefore he must be love. Because there is no other concept worth worship/pursuit.

Can you say that this moment is unreal? Is there anything more real that this which is happening presently?
Can you hear the past or smell the future?
Every 'thing' is a concept but what is this that is happening right now? Can you put a label on what 'this' is? Or is it prior to any 'abstract concept' - this moment is the 'immaculate conception' - Gods first born - the image that is appearing presently is made of light - can you see the light that is appearing? This light is the light of consciousness - it is unconditioned love - it is untouched by abstractions (concepts placed upon it).

The only 'thing' you need liberating from is the belief that you are a 'person living in time'. Have you ever stepped out of 'presence'? One must be liberated 'from' the person to know God's love.
Some have named this moment of presence God.

An image is constructed based on time of a 'me' who lives elsewhere, else when . When it is realized that there is no escape from presence - the 'me' is seen as just a story appearing presently in presence.
There is only presence.