Who receives God's Grace? To law or not to law?

reply to post by Akragon


A wage isn't something that's continuously given. It's just payment for work done.

It's not infinite, it's given in direct proportion to labor.

But you're missing my point. Grace is unmerited favor, or in this discussion in regards to God grace means receiving something from Him which we do not deserve, or not receiving a just punishment that we do deserve.

If something is merit-based or must be earned that would be a reward, not grace. An example would be a gift you give to a family member or loved one. You don't require them to earn the gift, or merit the gift before you give it to them. Grace is the same with God, He gives grace not because we earn it or deserve it, but because He is gracious and good.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Saving Grace,

The unconditional love from God that changes a man’s heart and directs him down the path towards his salvation. Also called being born again.

It's summed up beautifly in Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

A wage isn't something that's continuously given. It's just payment for work done.

It's not infinite, it's given in direct proportion to labor.

But you're missing my point. Grace is unmerited favor, or in this discussion in regards to God grace means receiving something from Him which we do not deserve, or not receiving a just punishment that we do deserve.

If something is merit-based or must be earned that would be a reward, not grace. An example would be a gift you give to a family member or loved one. You don't require them to earn the gift, or merit the gift before you give it to them. Grace is the same with God, He gives grace not because we earn it or deserve it, but because He is gracious and good.

edit on 18-4-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Grace is Gods unconditional love for all. No one deserves it unless of course you planned your own birth you did nothing to receive it. You were born therefore you are loved.

You must love to feel love. So to feel the love that God has given you since birth he says you must choose to love. This is actually quite scientific and rational.

Love is part of the creation, no one can fully escape it because God is love. But you can only feel that love when you do loving things. Believe it spiritual, believe it chemical, just believe it. God and science agree, loving others tends to produce loving emotions.

The two concepts can coexist. God can love you and still have requirements of you to feel it. I love my own child unconditionally but I can imagine a few things that would require discipline, not out of anger but merely because I love her.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

A wage isn't something that's continuously given. It's just payment for work done.

It's not infinite, it's given in direct proportion to labor.

But you're missing my point. Grace is unmerited favor, or in this discussion in regards to God grace means receiving something from Him which we do not deserve, or not receiving a just punishment that we do deserve.

If something is merit-based or must be earned that would be a reward, not grace. An example would be a gift you give to a family member or loved one. You don't require them to earn the gift, or merit the gift before you give it to them. Grace is the same with God, He gives grace not because we earn it or deserve it, but because He is gracious and good.

edit on 18-4-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Incorrect...

Wage:Noun

A fixed regular payment, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis, made by an employer to an employee, esp. to a manual or unskilled...


I've asked you this before and you ignored the question....

Show me where Jesus said we don't deserve Gods "grace"...

That is Pauls doctrine not Christs... Paul believes everyone is already condemned...

Jesus said no such thing

reply to post by Akragon


Neither did Paul but no reason to derail my own thread. Haha

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Akragon

 

Neither did Paul but no reason to derail my own thread. Haha

the world is condemned according to Paul

1 cor 11
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Akragon

 

Neither did Paul but no reason to derail my own thread. Haha

the world is condemned according to Paul

1 cor 11
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

If we judge ourselves based on love we will not be judged by love because we have already judged ourselves. We either choose love or choose forgiveness.

All Paul is saying is if you pursue love than you will find it. Part of the pursuit of love is to judge yourself to ensure that your actions are loving. If they are loving you will find love. If you do not find love you have been judged by the father. If you loved you would have found love.

When you experience any emotion that is opposed to love it is because you choose to do something less than loving. Once you realize in your ignorance that you did something against love the task is to repent and seek forgiveness. Of course love returns immediately when you recognize that you did indeed stray from the righteous path of love.

1 John 2:17. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Believe in reincarnation, resurrection, or some kind of combination of both this is still true for all of us. The world and its desires do pass away in this lifetime.

The world is condemned, meaning the worldly and the worldly desires. There are other passages that have been interpreted to mean a literal passing away as well. But i think the main point is to not get caught up in what everyone else is doing. The bad things that you see will someday be no more. This is why we should always do our best to pursue love.

reply to post by sacgamer25


The point is Jesus didn't say the world is condemned as Paul stated...

In fact John said specifically God loves the world... so much so that he sent his son knowing full well that he would be killed.

Pauls doctrine of Grace is purely Paulian thought...

Jesus actually said the world will be judged by what we do in this life...(our actions or lack there of)

He didn't say the world is condemned already...

1 John 2:17. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

That isn't Jesus, and it doesn't say the world is condemned already in any case

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

The point is Jesus didn't say the world is condemned as Paul stated...

In fact John said specifically God loves the world... so much so that he sent his son knowing full well that he would be killed.

Pauls doctrine of Grace is purely Paulian thought...

Jesus actually said the world will be judged by what we do in this life... He didn't say the world is condemned already...

1 John 2:17. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

That isn't Jesus, and it doesn't say the world is condemned already in any case

edit on 18-4-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

John 8:19-21

19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20 He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

Jesus most definitely said that the people who live by the rules of this world, self righteousness, comparing themselves against themselves that they would die in their sin and that they could not go where he is going. Is it possible to be any more condemned?

They were experts in the law but had failed to love anyone but themselves. That is the message in this world. Me first. This me first world is perishing to be reborn a love first world.

Whether purely spiritual or possibly even physical the old world of selfishness will be replaced by a world of love. The old world is condemned to pass away.

reply to post by Akragon


Please don't turn this into Jesus VS Paul. There's already numerous threads about that topic and they all turn out the exact same.

reply to post by Akragon


You said it continues, I pointed out that it only continues as long as the labor does. No one gets paid a wage for not working, it's a direct result of work.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

The point is Jesus didn't say the world is condemned as Paul stated...

In fact John said specifically God loves the world... so much so that he sent his son knowing full well that he would be killed.

Pauls doctrine of Grace is purely Paulian thought...

Jesus actually said the world will be judged by what we do in this life... He didn't say the world is condemned already...

1 John 2:17. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

That isn't Jesus, and it doesn't say the world is condemned already in any case

edit on 18-4-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

John 8:19-21

19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20 He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

Jesus most definitely said that the people who live by the rules of this world, self righteousness, comparing themselves against themselves that they would die in their sin and that they could not go where he is going. Is it possible to be any more condemned?

They were experts in the law but had failed to love anyone but themselves. That is the message in this world. Me first. This me first world is perishing to be reborn a love first world.

Whether purely spiritual or possibly even physical the old world of selfishness will be replaced by a world of love. The old world is condemned to pass away.

And again, he was speaking to a specific religious sect... The Pharisees, who he said were already screwed because of their beliefs... Except your righteousness exceed The Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom.

This does not say "the world" is condemned...

I appreciate you trying to explain away the contradiction, but it doesn't change what it says...

We're judged by our actions or lack there of... people are "saved" by their knowledge of Love...and how they use such knowledge

the physical world will pass away, that is a scientific fact... but I highly doubt the world will change in an instant like much of Christianity believes. It actually seems to me that the world is a mess, and its meant to be this way... a proving ground of sorts

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Please don't turn this into Jesus VS Paul. There's already numerous threads about that topic and they all turn out the exact same.

Trying not to, but its so easy to do...

You said it continues, I pointed out that it only continues as long as the labor does. No one gets paid a wage for not working, it's a direct result of work.

Similar to how people don't get a retirement fund if they don't work for it....

Its not given freely, and neither is "Gods Grace" so to speak...

You get what you give...

reply to post by Akragon


If God's grace isn't given freely then it's not "grace".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

If God's grace isn't given freely then it's not "grace".

Likely why Jesus didn't use the word...

It was never meant to be used in that way...

Grace is an ease of doing things... Jesus was graceful in his responses, and in dealing with people... like when John describes him as being "full of grace and truth"

Justice is when we get what we deserve.
Mercy is when we don't get what we deserve.
Grace is when we get what we don't deserve!

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Jesus most definitely said that the people who live by the rules of this world, self righteousness, comparing themselves against themselves that they would die in their sin and that they could not go where he is going. Is it possible to be any more condemned?

Yes it is possible "to be more condemned" - according to Paul. Paul assumes everyone is inherently condemned to separation from God - unless you receive grace sometime down the road. Thus he invented the method of believing in Jesus' sacrifice allows the believer to be saved. Paul did not assume one could release the obstruction between oneself and God because it was inherent in one's own fundamentally sinful nature, evilness even.

Jesus did not assume everyone is inherently evil nor separate from God. He assumed everyone can be intimate with God as children are to one's father, and that everyone can live by the commandments of love, which completely imply and require non-separation from God in order to practice rightly. A life so lived is already saved, but if no responsibility is taken for living the law of love, then yes, one is going to suffer the consequences. But Jesus assumed people could live his commandments of love.

Given Paul assumed we are already damned, no such responsibility was emphasized by him - just believe in Jesus' sacrifice and be saved at some future time. So which would likely become more popular - Jesus' way of real responsibility for the life of love and transcendence of self, or Paul's easy church of believing in some official dogma and you are saved?

How can people think that without real responsive practice of love and surrender to God, that somehow they will eventually get saved in the future by simply believing in Jesus' sacrifice of self? Such belief is mainly just some concepts that are out the window as soon as the body-mind passes. One has to profoundly discover what is Eternal in this life to be saved from the fear of death, to transcend the death of the physical body-mind - not just by trying to hold on to some mental beliefs based in Paul's dogmatic revision of Jesus' message.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

If God's grace isn't given freely then it's not "grace".

Likely why Jesus didn't use the word...

It was never meant to be used in that way...

Grace is an ease of doing things... Jesus was graceful in his responses, and in dealing with people... like when John describes him as being "full of grace and truth"

No, grace being defined as an "ease of doing things" is just one of several connotation s for the word grace. In terms of theology proper it means something else entirely. I means "something freely bestowed upon man by deity".

"a. Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people."


Online Dictionary

reply to post by sacgamer25

. . . unconditional love from God that changes a man’s heart and directs him down the path towards his salvation . . .

Don't know where you get that from, maybe a dictionary of Christian terminology.
"Saving grace" normally means someone's redeeming quality, like you would say about someone, "the guy is not such a good actor but he does have one saving grace, at least he doesn't seem pretentious" for an example.

reply to post by Akragon

A wage is something that is continuously given... whereas a reward is given for something that's been done well... Perhaps such as living a good life...

You know your Gospels and yes, that's the way Jesus talks in them, about having rewards from God, after this life.