3 good questions for christians/creationists

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by micmerci

 

Hmm, that is not really how it works.

How does it work then? This statement suggests that you have knowledge of how it works. That is a pretty lofty statement considering philosophers have debated how it works for centuries now without coming to an absolute resolution.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by micmerci

 

I am not really sure what you are referring to here? If I were hostile in anyway I apologize.

Obviously I can´t really talk to the man on the cross, so that is not really an option.

As far as Jesus is concerned you can in fact talk to Him. He also made the statement that He and His Father are one.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by MikeHawke

 

1 animals were here to be food. dont be such a puss to pull the poor defensless animals card. they have no emotions or souls or thoughts of right and wrong. they are just empty vessels.

Ah, another one of you.
They certainly DO HAVE emotions, souls, and thoughts. You obviously don't know any personally.
FAIL.

i completely agree with you. Animals do have souls and feelings especially higher animals, maybe not flies and ants but they play their part in the ecosystem.
We as humans have been given some authority over them but thats not without a responsibility towards their wellbeing. Especially not to hurt them unnecessarily or kill them for 'fun.'
we should show mercy to every living being if we want mercy from the All-Merciful God.

reply to post by MikeHawke


1: Well Mike, if you think that you would be still a christian if you were born in asia to a buddhist family then go on and believe that. I certainly can´t change your mind.

2: Sure there is a food chain! That is nature? Does that mean that a dog has no soul? I think you are missing the point here?

3: YES, I DO think that he should value the life he created. What kind of god would just kill you out of spite and anger?

Do you honestly would want to pray to that entity?

reply to post by Nightaudit


Not to mention elephants, who actually cry. When I was raising and training horses, and it was time to wean the babies so we had to separate them from their dams, I saw low-hanging heads, lethargy, etc.

My cats, dogs, horses, and yes, even the chickens, show/ed 'preference' for other animals of their own species, and build friendships, trust, dislike, or animosity towards others. They also build friendships with other species, quite readily, INCLUDING HUMANS.

My animals also show UNCONDITIONAL love, and are very sensitive to the emotions of us - their caretakers and providers - show patience when we make mistakes, understand when they have misbehaved - even show deliberate 'misbehavior' as a tool to communicate. I have an aging cat who, when he doesn't get his way, starts getting obnoxious, and if ignored gets 'revenge' (which he's attempting to do right now! Wants his wet food, so he's 'clicking' around the house into forbidden areas in order to get my attention.)

He sits outside and asks to come in with a noise like, "Helll....oOOO?"
His friend cat used to call his 'name', "LY...lllle." They ALL know their names, recognize tones of voice or the wishes of the others in the house....including mine, my husband's, or anyone else's who lives here.

One of my dogs acts as messenger and overseer of the other one, letting me know when he wants out, or it's time for a chewie, or whatever. They KNOW. They think, they help each other, they even teach each other.

They are VERY clever with their communication skills, and master manipulators at times!

Gotta go give Lyle his old-man wet food before he pees in the corner........
(oh, in nice weather he'll go to the door and look at it. Each of them has a way to "ask" to go in or out, to be fed, to play, to snuggle....I could go on and on, but that would be derailing, for sure.)

If only HUMANS were as sensitive and compassionate, as responsive and attentive to others as animals are. Elephants are my faves.....right up there with horses, dogs, cats...dolphins, etc.
My utmost respect goes to them, and much less of it to a large portion of humanity. Appalling what people do to each other and to animals!

reply to post by micmerci


I am sorry if I sound like an ass here. But google evolution?

I kinda don´t know what else to say...

reply to post by micmerci


Oh, I know that I can talk to him.

BUT...

does he ever answer? As far as I know prayer is a one way street.

I will happily accept another version if you can show me some sort of recent quotes from the big man.

reply to post by wildtimes


No doubt at all that you are right.

Animals are much closer to us than most of us want to believe. People who are unable to make that connection (oh I REALLY am not a dog person... we all know those people) are usually a little uhm ...dry themselves.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by micmerci

 

I am sorry if I sound like an ass here. But google evolution?

I kinda don´t know what else to say...

I am equally sorry if I sound like an ass here but evolution theory and souls given to living things by intelligent design are not compatible schools of thought. So forgive me if I can't see how an internet search engine can reconcile the two.

reply to post by micmerci


Ok, maybe that was too vague of an answer.

Complex social behaviour in mammals has not just popped up and was there. It developed over time and out of necessity. And I am NOT a believer in intelligent design.

I know science to be true, including evolution, yet I still believe in god.

Therefore I said that is not really how it works. You can´t just expect snails to come up to you and say "hi".

In my view some form of intelligent process is behind the creation of the universe, including evolution, the big bang and all the rest of it. And that intelligent process, whatever it is, is "god" to me.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by micmerci

 

Oh, I know that I can talk to him.

BUT...

does he ever answer? As far as I know prayer is a one way street.

I will happily accept another version if you can show me some sort of recent quotes from the big man.

Before Jesus, God spoke directly to people. Then He spoke through Jesus. Now He speaks through His Holy Spirit. These are the parameters that He has laid out for us. We choose to believe or to not believe. Why should we expect to be able to set the parameters of the relationship, being the creation and not the creator? Besides, if that were the case, wouldn't there be billions of varied sets of parameters?

reply to post by micmerci

I am equally sorry if I sound like an ass here but evolution theory and souls given to living things by intelligent design are not compatible schools of thought.

Oh, but they are compatible. We simply need to realize that The Plan has a much longer "time-frame" than we have patience or individual physical existence. I think we're- in each individual lifetime - nothing but blips on the monitor of evolution, which has to take however long it takes. Like the classic kid's question on a road trip:

Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

answer: We'll be there when we get there. Period. Look at the scenery.

reply to post by Nightaudit


I entirely agree.
Looks like we have collectively gone a different direction than your OP, though.
Would you like us to return to it, or keep going?

reply to post by micmerci


Oh, so in biblical times he DID talk back, right? And you were there and witnessed that?

I am sorry, but I am sure that some early tribes claimed to talk to thor or whatever as well. Are they all correct? Or all they maybe all wrong?

The question remains why god is silent now.

And if god comes up with gems like "you better kill your son to prove your loyalty", well then I prefer him to be silent.

reply to post by wildtimes


Well as long as I keep to interact with people like you, I do not really care where this is going

reply to post by Nightaudit

I still have to disagree about the "abraham case" though. I do not know if you have children (I don´t yet, but I am a double uncle ) but the thought alone of KILLING your child for any reason is atrocious. And I do know that that hasn´t happened, but the plot was there. That alone matters. If I were abraham I would have gladly told this god to F off and burn for eternity in hell to save my child.

I agree that it is extreme but prophets had to endure it to set an example.
Noah pbuh watched his son refusing to board the ark,
Lot's (pbuh)wife was not saved.
Jesus pbuh had to accept to be crucified as a criminal while he was innocent. If we were in his place, we would just run away!
The lesson is not to kill our own children but the lesson is not to blindly love our children so much that we end up wronging others for their sake.
Obedience to God comes before kids. Its not harsh, its simple because God only commands justice and compassion.

The error we commit is we start judging God rather than judging ourself first in the light of the example by Abraham pbuh. Are we using wrong means to earn because we want to provide the best to our loved ones?

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by micmerci

 

Oh, so in biblical times he DID talk back, right? And you were there and witnessed that?

I am sorry, but I am sure that some early tribes claimed to talk to thor or whatever as well. Are they all correct? Or all they maybe all wrong?

The question remains why god is silent now.

And if god comes up with gems like "you better kill your son to prove your loyalty", well then I prefer him to be silent.

No, I was not there to witness that. Thus, the reason my answer was that we choose to believe or not to believe. I am not like many evangelical Christians in that I will never try to push someone into believing as I do. As far as I am concerned, my Christian duty is to present the gospel and then let the person make a decision on their own. If you do not believe the things that Jesus said or in what is in scripture, that is your business. Like I said earlier, I just merely repeat what is written and give my take on it from my niche of the broad spectrum of Christianity.

reply to post by logical7


I really appreciate your input. But the whole idea of the flood and Noah´s ark are nothing more than fairy tales.

We would see evidence of this flood, and there is none.

In fact we have quite a bit of evidence that the flood did NOT happen.

Let alone the rather ridiculous claim of the ark itself. There are countless real life issues with that.

But let´s not digress too far.

All I can say is that there is no real reason whatsoever to believe in the biblical stories like the flood or moses parting the red sea. In fact there is hard evidence to the contrary.

That is why we shouldn´t see these tales as history, but as stories that are supposed to guide us.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by logical7

 

I really appreciate your input. But the whole idea of the flood and Noah´s ark are nothing more than fairy tales.

We would see evidence of this flood, and there is none.

In fact we have quite a bit of evidence that the flood did NOT happen.

Let alone the rather ridiculous claim of the ark itself. There are countless real life issues with that.

But let´s not digress too far.

All I can say is that there is no real reason whatsoever to believe in the biblical stories like the flood or moses parting the red sea. In fact there is hard evidence to the contrary.

That is why we shouldn´t see these tales as history, but as stories that are supposed to guide us.

Not to get too far off course here but:

1. there is geological evidence of a deluge about 4000-5000 years ago
2. there are reports of chariot parts discovered at the bottom of the Red Sea (Even left-wing puppet site Snopes says "undetermined" instead of false.
3. archeological finds at site believed to be Sodom - salt pillars, brimstone embedded in rock

But these are all for another thread(s). Suffice it to say, not everything is an open and close case as your statements seem to indicate.

reply to post by logical7

We as humans have been given some authority over them but thats not without a responsibility towards their wellbeing. Especially not to hurt them unnecessarily or kill them for 'fun.'
we should show mercy to every living being if we want mercy from the All-Merciful God.

ABSOTIVELY!!
(That's a hybrid of absolutely and positively)....

I believe we are the stewards of this planet - and should treat it with the respect, nurturing and care that it deserves.
Exploitation is wrong, and cruel. Whether it's puncturing or fracturing the Earth's surface, pouring filth into her seas, allowing oil spills to contaminate her, or forcing the extinction of other species with no regard for them, or wiping out entire forests and jungles - it's all WRONG.

Without the Earth in healthy shape, we are DOOMED. It's our JOB to make sure she survives.