3 good questions for christians/creationists

reply to post by stars15k

They are just animals after all.

I see this as a total FAIL in morality, ethics, and respect for living things.

reply to post by MikeHawke

1 animals were here to be food. dont be such a puss to pull the poor defensless animals card. they have no emotions or souls or thoughts of right and wrong. they are just empty vessels.

Ah, another one of you.
They certainly DO HAVE emotions, souls, and thoughts. You obviously don't know any personally.
FAIL.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by adjensen

 

You are again debating beside the topic at hand.

What are you talking about -- I answered your direct question!

And if you do not believe that baptizing someone makes you a christian then you don´t even really know that much about the faith you subscribe to.

As I said, you have a very shallow understanding of the Christian faith. Baptism does not make anyone a Christian, it is a sign of belonging to the Christian community.

Baptism does not make you a Christian. It is a demonstration that you already believe. It is important to understand that baptism does not "save" you. You are "saved" only by your faith in Jesus. (Source)

Both promoters of adult and infant baptism, and both Catholics and Protestants agree on one point -- baptism does not make a person a Christian, and it does not save you.

reply to post by Nightaudit

Sorry if it looked like I was derailing your thread.

I agree with you 100% that it's the message that matters, not the messenger.
I think there are people in every religion that have the right concepts and behave the way that Jesus (or any great master of the past) has taught.

It's the Christians in particular who demean animals and nature that infuriate me the most.
But, you did not direct your Qs at me, so I will bow out - just wanted to let you know I S/F you. Thanks for another good attempt at drawing out the touchy subjects.

~wild

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by micmerci

 

Hmm. So what if you heard of jesus, but you choose to stay a buddhist for your own reasons?

Hell?

According to Christ- yes. Many pastors and followers will dance around that answer for fear of the repercussions but it is Christian doctrine

reply to post by Nightaudit


i love to discuss rationally and objectively. I see that you are open and have valid questions.

1: I am glad that you agree! Might I add the question if that insight changes anything about how you view your own religion? Or in other words, do you consider the muslim faith to be "the" one?

it does change how i view others who are not of my religion.
You can see Islam as a natural progression of previous religions, there was supposed to be one faith(not religion/title). Faith in One God and the natural outcome of that belief for example, if you and i have the same Creator, how can i hate you or think myself as superior or how can i wish something for you that i don't like for myself.

2: Forgive me if I haven´t really an in-
depth knowledge of the bible history.
But are you implying that there were
versions of it that were closer to the
word of god? And is it known to
historians and scholars what has been changed?

the OT is written by jews over a long period of time and altered to suit the ideas of the time of alterations, i don't think God would agree to marry a rapist to the victim and he pays 50 sheckles to her father!!
The teachings were more original when the prophets walked among their people.
That made it necessary to send more prophets to restore teachings, Jesus pbuh came for that.

3: Again, I have to bring in the fact that
it doesn´t make sense for an all-
knowing god to "test" someone. God
doesn´t need to know. He knows. And
even if he was uncertain for whatever
reason, he surely could have chosen a less cruel path to prove his point.

yes God knows, but we don't and if God rewarded some and punished others before they acted, just because He knows, we would be crying foul!
God is absolutely just and His plan is to make us our own witness.

Death is not cruel if you are certain that there is a God and that death is not an end.

It is a whole ´nother story to kill
everything that lives (including
innocent humans) because the ways
of men irritate the creator.

if you mean its unjust then you are looking at half the picture. There is afterlife right?
You cannot judge God when you only see half the truth.

And if we are at that topic. I do not
really know what they supposedly did
back then, but surely recent events in
our past would have justified divine
intervention as well? The nazis? Stalin?
countless genocides? Where is that god today?

God does not always intervene to prevent wrongs, but He punishes them after they do wrong. Look at history of civilizations, when they got too corrupted, oppressive they were destroyed.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by MikeHawke

 

1 animals were here to be food. dont be such a puss to pull the poor defensless animals card. they have no emotions or souls or thoughts of right and wrong. they are just empty vessels.

Ah, another one of you.
They certainly DO HAVE emotions, souls, and thoughts. You obviously don't know any personally.
FAIL.

Wild,

I love animals and I don't want to seem argumentative but I want to ask a question that I can't seem to answer myself.
If animals have souls (consciousness), it follows that it includes all animals- not just the domesticated ones that develop human-like social skills. Do you think this is so? Do snails, chickens, flies, plankton, etc have souls? I look forward to your thoughts

reply to post by Nightaudit


1. you asked me if i would still become a christian. to me yes. to you abviosly not. hence the word "depends".. does the whole world either belive in it or not? no, you got options you dont even understand your own question. i do feel the bible is the only thing that has the best truths about life perfectly explained and written. plus him dieng on the cross and then to say that the most important rule is to love everyone as yourself. only one who does not understand the contexty of the bible talks like you (aka ignorant to the knowledge of it) you cant cherry pick a line and say "look what it says here". if you do that with any other book you might think the main charactor died in one scene or somthing, but it probably wasnt really the case cause you just read a sentance of a whole chaper. people like you are annoying. read the whole bible and come back here, stop asking people and getting more 2nd hand knowlege. teach yourself. dont be one of those dumbasses that purposly googles the only offensive lines someone said before and they know. they find it purposly offensive then read that just as is in the one sentance and then base the whole book on that one sentance. because your searching to disprove what its all about you look ignorant cause your not goign to read it the way it was supposed to be, just in your pesomistic outlook of it. "No need to assume that I am a little kid that can´t read, is there" well actually there is. i wasnt asking if you could read slick, you just have no idea whats going on when you do. esp when you cherry pick common stories said on shows like southpark and come here acting like you have knolege of the bible. go read it. (noty just a sentance, all of it)

2. "If you think of animals of "just" food, then go on and live these values.." umm we do lmao.. dude your just making me think you really dont use your head. besides house pets how is this not true? we do exactly that. as a matter of fact we have whole industries dedicated to maintaing a steady supply of food from them. did nobody tell you this?

"And btw, he obviously would have killed a lot of innocent humans in the process as well. You may think that that is absolutely ok. I choose to believe in a god who values life though"

ok.. say this god wants you to follow his values and believe in him with only faith to get into heaven to be with him for eternity. you really thing hes going to care about the life you have here? lol really? why? dont you think he'd rather have you there? so why do you find life so imoportant? you must not understand how insignifigant you are? if you died tomoprrow i can garuntee you no opne on here would care. but God would. because once you leave here you will go to one of 2 places. does his not coming down from heaven just to prove to you "night audit" that he exists offend you or something? are you really goign to try to use the death of people to deny Gods existance? like "if he was real he wouldnt let that happen". i dont know what to tell you dude

reply to post by micmerci

If animals have souls (consciousness), it follows that it includes all animals- not just the domesticated one's that develop human-like social skills. Do you think this is so? Do snails, chickens, flies, plankton, etc have souls? I look forward to your thoughts

Good and fair question. I think, for now, that mammals do have souls. I know for CERTAIN they have individual personalities, and emotions - I've witnessed way too many grieving animals and spirit-broken ones to think otherwise.
Flies? No. Chickens? I don't know, but I cringe every time I think of how they are bred and slaughtered. I've raised chicks and had doves and parakeets, and they DO have personalities. I think anything with a personality has a soul.

Plankton and snails? Mmm. Not so much. Can't answer it really, either, but since birds can and do make 'friends' with other species, I'd say yes, birds do.

reply to post by wildtimes


Ah, another one of you.
They certainly DO HAVE emotions, souls, and thoughts. You obviously don't know any personally.
FAIL.

you talk to them do you? they put you in a hospital where i come from if you think you can do this. they have a personality but maybe 0.0000123424 as that of a human. now why? why would be teh only creartures here that act like we do. with art, music, building something and taking pride in it. people jsut give animals way too much credit these days. like when a ape figures out how to open a door through puzzle form. like its amazing or something

Originally posted by wildtimes
I see this as a total FAIL in morality, ethics, and respect for living things.

I couldn´t agree more. Thank you for your comment. I honestly really appreciate it

reply to post by wildtimes


I can appreciate your answer. So you do not think it is an all or none type of thing like Descartes(none)? I really don't know exactly where I stand on this. The spiritual side of me wants to say that all living things have a soul but then I can't wrap my head around insects, pests, and rodents having souls.

Still have to think about it for now.

reply to post by wildtimes


I absolutely couldn´t agree with you more. And feel free to "derail" the this thread with your knowledge anytime you want.

I kind of can´t understand "loving" christians or subscribers to any faith for that matter who regard the beauty of the animals we share this planet with as "just" food.

That thought actually disgusts me a little bit. I really tried to be open and civil here. But it´s not easy.

reply to post by micmerci


Well, in what world do people live where the dalai lama deserves to go to hell, then?

I am sorry. But that is beyond anything that I am willing to accept.

We can go back to burning "witches" just as well imo.

reply to post by MikeHawke

you talk to them do you?

Yep, every day!! Multiple times!
And you know what? They not only understand me, but they 'talk' to me, too, in many different ways. You simply have to pay attention.
Some of my best, truest, and most stalwart friends have been horses, dogs, cats. You have no pure soul if you can't recognize that other creatures have, and use, communication. Inter-species communication, as well as intraspecies.

But someone like you would have no experience to know that, because you see them as "empty vessels." Shameful. Utterly disrespectful of this creation, on which we ALL depend for life. Guess who I would say, between you and them, is an "empty vessel"....devoid of real compassion or the capacity to love ...
go on, guess.

What absolute arrogance and ignorant cruelty to think such a thing!!

reply to post by Nightaudit


Please don't shoot the messenger. The person named Jesus that lived 2000 years ago said it, I am merely repeating it. If you do not agree, may I suggest taking it up with Him?

reply to post by logical7


I highly respect your view of religions and the world in total. I think that this place would be a little less "stressful" if more people would think like you do.

And I do not mean to single out muslims, in case you got that. I just really appreciate your open mindedness and your respect of other beliefs as well.

Interesting take on the prophets as well! I think if we can learn one thing from the indeed good message of jesus, then it is to respect all forms of life and beliefs. I am sure that several religions have kind of "watered down" the original messages in order to publish their own beliefs and desires.

I couldn´t picture Christ as the leader of the crusades for example.

I still have to disagree about the "abraham case" though. I do not know if you have children (I don´t yet, but I am a double uncle ) but the thought alone of KILLING your child for any reason is atrocious. And I do know that that hasn´t happened, but the plot was there. That alone matters.

If I were abraham I would have gladly told this god to F off and burn for eternity in hell to save my child.

reply to post by micmerci


Hmm, that is not really how it works. BUT we DO see quite complex social behaviour in all kinds of animals. Whales mourn their dead, dolphins are very sophisticated in that sense, and even ants have very complex structures.

We also have to acknowledge that evolution is a process that takes millions of years. So even IF snails were in some future able to develop more sophisticated behaviour (which I kind of doubt btw), then it would be unrealistic to expect that in our lifetimes.

reply to post by micmerci


That indeed is a difficult question. What I CAN say is that a lot of mammals obviously DO have a distinct character and an individuality so to speak.

Does that mean that ALL living things have a soul, including a rose bush for example?

I honestly don´t know. I think it is best to treat every living thing with the respect they deserve.

reply to post by micmerci


I am not really sure what you are referring to here? If I were hostile in anyway I apologize.

Obviously I can´t really talk to the man on the cross, so that is not really an option.