3 good questions for christians/creationists

reply to post by MikeHawke

I couldn’t see it any other way. I always want them free, it breaks my heart to see them hating being in such an enclosed space forever. but those monkeys wouldnt touch anyone else but me. and when i walked away theyd follow me around teh cage. thats just how i am with them, sometimes i feel like they know my heart. but i really feel like thats the little bit of God in every species. I mean i look at it as he made it all.

Okay, then. They are asking you for help, and trusting YOU - but you think they have no souls? Those poor captive "slaves" to humans??

Really, Mike, I hope you will rethink this stance. There are not "empty vessels" devoid of souls.

I agree with you that every species has a bit of the Divine Spark - don't know if you read my above too-long posts or not. But if you believe that, how can you say they are "empty vessels"?

Yeah, bugs, reptiles, fish...sure. I agree they have no personality and no "soul" - but they are still part of the creation, alive, and deserving of respect and care.

The higher animals, though, who show social interaction individually, and the capacity to bond with others of other species and each other, to mourn and feel emotions, HAVE SOULS.

Do you see what I'm trying to say?

reply to post by MikeHawke


If you're interested, it would be great for you to c/p this explanation or write a new post in the thread in my signature.
My effort is to collect the stories of everyone who participates in these religious forums, so others (and we, each other) can see the diversity of religious thinking on ATS.

I hope you do.
If not, that's cool, too.

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

Alot of variables there, as you can be born in a christian country and not end up being a christian. My thoughts are that it is entirely possible.

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

I cope with it by suggesting that words that applied to "god" were also applicable to pharaoh and that is some cases ,god was not pharaoh and in some cases, god was pharaoh.

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

the Isaac scenario was a foreshadowing of Jesus.
from my studies (regarding the flood), the issue seems to be related to the condition the planet was in at the time. other hebrew pseudopigraphia indicates that the plants and animals were no longer edible. that humans had been so tinkered with genetically, that they were dying enmasse from it, starvation and drought. that a genetically modified race of human giants, were eating non modified humans, as a food source. humans were about to be snuffed out of existence, forever. so there was an intervention.

reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom


Well spoken, sir.
I hope you, too, will consider posting your experience with religion in the link in my signature.
There is so much diversity among us who participate in this forum -

We need to listen to each other, weigh all of this stuff, and come to a consensus of some kind of common ground. From there, perhaps we can work TOGETHER to heal the awfulness of this world.
(star for you)
~wild

Originally posted by Nightaudit

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

I usually don't post to these things but I am stalling from homework, so here goes nothin

1. It depends, we are born with a yearning for something better, and our hearts tell us there is more to life than just what is around us. If I were born in a non-christian country I would still be searching for him, but I would be lost in the matrix (watched that movie on my lunch break and just had to reference it lol...30min lunch break mind you, with old VHS tapes in the break room, so I saw 30min of it for the umpteenth time, and still love it).

2. I really think you are referring to the Old Testament...in the OT things were a bit more rough around the edges and yes, there were strict laws, people got killed for doing wrong, and those in power abused that system just like people do today. The OT is a wonderful overview of human nature, especially the darker side of human nature. In the New Testament Christ came to over a new covenant...a covenant of his blood, not a sacrificial lamb. This new covenant brought many freedoms previously unknown to the jews. Yes the NT still talks about slavery, but the NT is not a singular book, it is a series of books and letters...written in a specific time period and for a specific purpose...although they are the word of God people that read a passage and say "this directly relates to me today" might actually be wrong...when we read the Bible, especially some of the more narrative letters from Paul we need to be thinking "who was this written to and why? and in that context how does it apply to me today?" Is it wrong to own slaves today? yes! Also the part about women being quiet in the church was a letter written to a church who was dealing with gossip and bickering within the church community.

3. The OT is really hard to define...God creates paradise, man sins against God which forever brings sin into the world separating man and God...God says here do this, and people do it, sit back, then rebel, then say oops my bad...God says ok now do this, people say ok, then get lazy and build a golden calf...the whole OT is the story of people coming to and falling away from God...that is just human nature honestly. I don't condemn my friends for falling away from the church, even I swing closer to and further from God like a pendulum. God tested all his prophets and for Abraham, yes that was pretty messed up, but God knew what he was doing . God also judges nations on their character...when a nation was destroyed for not following God, even the good was destroyed with the bad. While this was again during OT times before the covenant of Christ, we may all pay for the sins of our nation, as God judges justly...man was charged with taking care of the Earth, when man fails and animals/ecosystems is wiped out, that is just as detrimental to man as it is to the creatures.
In the end, for me personally, I just never let these doubts/questions really get to me. Similarly in college, I didn't join the Theology club because I just felt that people arguing Calvinism and predestination and all these things was pointless. If I want to know something, I'll ask God when I get there

double post...grr

reply to post by Nightaudit


1. are you a freemason?
2. if you are a freemason, who is your god?
3. if you are a freemason, image you aren't a freemason, then imagine you grew up without parents... would you still love them?

Religion is for the folks who can't see the forest because of all the trees. When the overwhelming evidence say's there's some tree's there, they tend to distort their reality as to make those tree's disappear. So they remain in that complete state of denial and have plausable deniability that the tree's aren't there. Paraphrased for the real thumpers on here.

reply to post by openyourmind1262


I do wonder what the world/people/society would be like with out all the organized religions.

ever read the book The End of Faith?

I have it, but havent gotten through it yet

I haven't read all the posts but I have to mention the FACT that the bible is a man-made document. There is no hard evidence that a man called Jesus or Yahwey or any other name ever existed. Even IF such a person did exist approximately 2000 years ago what makes you believe that he was god - whatever that term means...

I feel sorry for the OP and anyone who cannot feel God's love or understand the importance of faith based beliefs.

Just another atheist looking for christians to beat up on.

reply to post by openyourmind1262

I'm not at my best right now, so I could use your help. I've read your post several times and I'm still a bit confused. This is honest, I don't follow. I know it's a giant metaphor, but I'm having trouble going step by step.

Religion is for the folks who can't see the forest because of all the trees. When the overwhelming evidence say's there's some tree's there, they tend to distort their reality as to make those tree's disappear. So they remain in that complete state of denial and have plausable deniability that the tree's aren't there. Paraphrased for the real thumpers on here.

Let me tell you my thinking and please correct me.

There is a forest, but believers can't see it because they're focusing on the individual trees. There are trees there for believers to look at. Then the believers do something and the trees disappear. So now they can safely say that the trees aren't there.

Please, help me out.

reply to post by Nightaudit


ill answer number 2 and be done with it, since it seems im casting my pearls before swine anyway.

I HATE when christians bash homosexuals, why? because the divorce rate from the world and the "church" is the same, about 50% which means there's no love, no forgiveness, no fidelity greater than what the world has. And on THIS point, the world has a right to call them hypocrites on it, and the church should listen because they (the world) are right about their hypocrisy.

As for justifying slavery, get real.

Originally posted by Nightaudit

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

[my format editing ]

4) The second one is obvious. Most christians cherry pick, and the ones that don´t are in the westboro baptist church. What I would like to know is how you justify the selection for yourself.

5) And lastly, I regard the christian god as a pretty selfish and ego driven deity. I am sorry to be so harsh, but who in his right mind would want to follow a god who does atrocious things like that?

Pardon my format editing. On a crappy touchscreen phone, so easier to refer back to the questions by quoting, and I didn't want to waste space by including the entire post, so I made the last two questions as numbered items as well. Anyhow, here'goes:

1) probably not - assuming my parents followed whatever the main religion in that land was, I would most likely follow that one. I believe that all religions are valid, at least to a degree, and are humanity's various "skins" / "filters" through which their general understanding of God/Gods is organized.

2) Quite simple - the world, and humanity were much different then. Also, if you crack open the 2nd half of the Bible, you'll come across the idea of a "New Covenant", and a guy known as Jesus Christ. Basically - the rules changed. Now, I'm no Bible scholar, but I do believe the stonings, etc. are part of the Old Testament, and are basically invalidated by the New Testament.

3) Again, the face/personality/actions (however you understand it) of the Divine changed drastically between 4000 BC and the past 2,000 years.

4) like I said, i'm no Bible scholar, but that statement made it sound like you know very close to absolutely nothing about Christianity. Maybe it was simply a superlative to make a point or maybe you really think such behavior as the (The Westboro Baptist cherry-pick-the worst parts of the Old Testament folks) present are what Christianity is actually about - I don't know...maybe there really is an anti-Christian conspiracy to misrepresent Christianity in the media and its actually working..anyhow, starting to rant here - I'll answer the question anyhow:

For me, its quite simple - people have free will. As such, they can pick and choose from any beliefs they choose to hold. Most of us, at the very least, understand that the Bible was written by men, in a world so different from our own, it must be an alien planet. Most of us also understand that the New Testament, for Christians, Supercedes the Old Testament. My most significant justification, however, for "cherry-picking" is that I decide which beliefs and which rules are for me. Do we really want everyone from every religion to be mindless, fundamentalist drones?

And 5) Honestly, I don't know who in their right mind would either, but again, it seems as though your understanding of Christianity is not only extremely lacking, but thoroughly misguided to the point it almost seems like its meant as a joke. What you describe sounds nothing whatsoever like Christianity - though a tiny, tiny minority of folks who call themselves Christians probably base their belief system on that tiny portion of the Old Testament which seems to be your focus.

Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

2: The "new" law is the one to follow. That would be Christ. He taught us to Love One Another, including sinners. And, yes, most people fall far short of that ideal.

Just to be clear.. Jesus said he made the new laws in addition to the old laws and they are not meant to take away from the old..

What many Christians do is *ignore* the laws in the Old Testament and basically say the thing that you just said right there.

Matthew 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Then shortly after he states the following..

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This was during the times in which Jesus had come and said he was "The One" and he fought the Pharisees with his words and criticized them for not properly overseeing the laws. Not just the 10C,but others as well . As many know, he had disciples those which he frequently taught. Those teachings and those alone are the ideas of *Christianity*. The Old Testament to Christians is just that... "OLD"

You would think that means they're more important..

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

1. Probably? It would obviously depend on having come into contact with Christianity in some way.

2. I see the bible as a document of living faith. It was written, rewritten and edited by men who lived in a certain historical context and cultural situation. It is impossible to abstract from the historical situation completely but it is essential to be aware of it (and in general we are pretty well aware under what circumstances which book was probably written, the different layers of redaction, later extrapolations, ...).
The one aspect that connects all these disparate texts is that they are (beneath all political and religious agendas) sincere documents of faith in the same God.
The bible is people telling us about their faith, about how they view the creation and their contemporary time & circumstances through their faith, about their hopes and fears in relation to their faith, ...

Understanding how faith in the one God evolved over the centuries, how it adapted to ever-changing circumstances and how it yet remained "the same" (true to itself) all the way gives me a framework that helps me to reflect on my own faith and test it against the experiences of all these biblical authors.

And the bible is of course a guide towards living a good life by showing how people in radically different times tried to live a good and pious life (with varying success). The bible does not present a single blueprint on how to live your life but wide variety of proposals from different epochs and cultures.

The challenge to the reader is to search for the constant, for that which makes you recognize that 800 BC's wisdom is in fact wisdom (even tough 2000 AD's wisdom would often look differently on the surface), ...
In the biblical books of wisdom all the way up to Jesus Sirach and the NT you'll find an enticing discourse on what it means to live a good life, what the value of a good life is, what the constants in an ever-changing and contradictory world/time are (read Kohelet!), on questions of theodicee, ...

Don't ever, EVER try to harmonize the bibilcal texts. Learn to appreciate them in their disparities and opposing point of views and you will learn a lot about life and faith.

Stoning people should be the least of your worries. First ome to terms rgd how you can believe in a faith that evolved from the belief in some local weather god (in a world of many gods) to the belief in trinitarian monotheism and then make your way from there.
Monotheism is quite new (shows up during the Babylonian exile but wasn't universal until long after), the idea of a picture-less god is pretty new (wasn't universal among Jews until the 2nd/1st century BC), the idea of the trinity is really new (and took about three centuries to get refined into its current form), ...

You need to appreciate the dynamics of an evolving faith in order to realize its foundations. On the upside, once you have cleared up these questions to an asnwer that is satisfactory to yourself you should have some good guidelines on how to deal with other religions.

If you can only believe in a static faith (that was revealed to Moses and passed on largely unchanged until at least Jesus) you're one ATS thread (on Ashera, Mithras, ...) away from disbelief.

3. heh, Abraham and Isaac is difficult and there are many different views on that episode.
I think first it is important to state clearly that

1. Abraham and Isaac weren't historical persons. Maybe there did exist some real guy called Abram/Abaraham, maybe there didn't. Maybe there was a real inspiration for this tale, maybe there wasn't.
   
2. You're not the only one having difficulties with this story. There are apocryphal rewritings of it that have Abraham refuse a temptation by satan to sacrifice his son. That's not an interpretation I would suggest - the biblical version is both the older version and the lectio difficilior - but it goes to show how much people have been struggling with this tale even in ancient times.
   
3. God ultimately doesn't want a human sacrifice, he stops Abraham before Abraham can sacrifice Isaac.
   

I think the last point is important and can be a key to this episode. Iudaism never involved human sacrifices. Other religions in the time & area did. This story states clearly that God does. not. want. a human sacrifice.

But isn't it a perverse test of faith to ask someone to sacrifice his own son? What kind of god does that sort of thing?
Reformulate "sacrifice your own son" into "be ready to give up what is most precious to you" and it doesn't sound all that perverse anymore.

An additional layer of meaning is that Isaac was a gift by God to Abraham in the first place. Abraham had faith and God gave him Isaac. Does your faith end once you got from God what you wanted? Or is your faith as such more important to you than whatever worldly benefits you might have reaped as a consequence of it? Are you willing to return these gifts/benefits if your faith tells you to?

These components - "God doesn't want human sacrifices", "Are you willing to give up what is most precious to you?" and "Is your faith just a means to an end or will you hold to it regardless of any worldly benefits it might confer?" are what I take away from this biblical episode.
You may of course disagree completely with my reading.

I'm not going to discuss every single example of a cruel god you could come up with (the flood, sodom & gomorrah, the plagues, the killing of the egyptian soldiers during the exodus, ...). But I hope I was able to demonstrate a constructive (and hopefully faithful) approach to such texts.
Don't ignore them or cherry-pick. Struggle with them until they yield a meaning.

Also read Job.

reply to post by Nightaudit

Hi
I would just like to say that one must be careful not to take everyone who identifies themselves as Christian as responsible for all content and translation of the bible.
I heard and believe that some of the bible was not translated properly, a lot is in code/metaphors it is taught differently by many people.
But in the bible the love they neighbour as thyself and instructions to heaven on earth are in there if you have the eyes to see.There is gold in them there hills.
No one person can be "Christianity as a concept " people can think they are a Christian, but that doesn't mean they translated the bible or interpret it the same as you do .
We are all individuals there is no conglomerate mass lump or one person/persons of Christianity .
Do you want to ask the new pope he's the closest you can get to a Christianity spokesperson, even then you will see his beliefs are different from other Christians.
I have a question for you... which "Christian" is it that translated the bible that are you asking your biblical questions ? Do you believe everything you read and do you think all Christians interpret and believe exactly the same things about and in the bible?
The Christ Consciousness is about rising to love and forgiveness and doing unto others as you would have done to you. People interpret books quite differently, and without understanding misunderstanding is rife.

Namaste.

Reading many of the replies in this thread I think it might be worthwhile to look up a guy called Marcion of Sinope.

(disclaimer: I'm a Catholic, we Catholics are generally quick to see "latent Marcionism" in the reception of the OT by some flavors of Protestantism)

reply to post by Nightaudit

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

The whole idea of Christianity is to spread it to the entire world.
If you were born in a country that has churches in it, then you should take it as a good thing, and personally as a blessing.
The fact that someone else may not have been so lucky should not deter you from feeling happy about being able to be Christian if you want to.
I constantly thank God that I was born into a Christian family and that I live in a country that tolerates my religion.
As for all that Old Testament atrocities stuff, we don't need to believe in all of that to be Christians. If the OT religion was somehow OK, there wouldn't have been the need to create Christianity.