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Thatchers Funeral - Evidence of the Great Class Divide.

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posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
reply to post by DISRAELI
 


She "won" her battles? Did you miss the part about putting 3-5 million people out of work, effecting and destroying many families, the loss of secure well paid jobs where people could actually have a dispute with their employer? The loss of industrial skill sets, such as ship building, steel working?

You dont think there's a little more to it than people feeling defeated by this woman?


Sheesh, I hope you never go into politics or finance. As emotive as the subject is, do you know how many industries were working at a loss? Do you think that should have continued ad infinitum until the UK was completely bankrupt? You come out with socialist worker rhetoric which has no backing in fact - notice how no large private companies took on the opportunity to rebuild those industries in the UK? Why do you think that is?


Ive never stated that there was no need for change, however i am greatly critical as to how her and her government went about those changes. That's where the anger comes from. Do you understand that? Rub the pound signs out of your eyes and wake up.


Grow up and stop throwing childish comments about - you betray your age. The labour government in the 70's tried the same approach - look it up, it's not that difficult, but refused to stand up to the unions which led to things getting worse rather than better. The joke of this is that I am fairly ambivalent about Thatcher (not sure there are many who can say that), but it's the lack of an educated discussion on this that just peeves me off because there is this wealth of crap that has grown up and become perceived as fact.


Explain the following to me:




I wouldn't want to attempt to as a) the page is unavailable and b) I have no interest in being a member of facebook.

If I linked to pictures of rats running around un-collected rubbish, or bodies that couldn't be buried due to strikes in the late 70's what would you think of that? What point are you trying to make.

As for your previous post around Tony Benn - you assume the UK was ruined, that is your opinion. At the end of the 70's we were literally close to real economic ruin - we were well known as the 'sick man of Europe' - don't you know any of this at all? Where do you get your facts? I'm being polite about this as all you do is spout the standard socialist worker responses with little actual fact.

Ah, you've pasted in the picture now. Can I ask for a source please? Lots of emotive statements on there without facts to back them up and (for the sake of Fudge) Atlee was picking up and riding off the back of a war - although I take nothing away from the establishment of the NHS.

Also, I do see it is from a source that is clearly shall we say..... misinformed or stupid? Thatcher didn't get a state funeral.

edit on 17-4-2013 by something wicked because: (no reason given)
edit on 17-4-2013 by something wicked because: Having seen the pic




posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 


I think you are right, I too doubt we'll ever agree about Thatcher and her policies.

As an aside, why do you think that privatisation was correct? Why couldn't those nationalised been re-structured and ran in a modern and professional manner whilst remaining nationalised?
Many now recognise that the exessive levels and numbers of management and unprofessional and bureaucratic management practices were at least as contributory to the poor performance of the nationalised industries as belligerent and militant Union attitudes and practices.

Nationalisation has become something of a verboten subject.

I guess that's a topic for debate somewhere else.
edit on 17/4/13 by Freeborn because: spelling



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by something wicked


Explain the following to me:



[img]



I wouldn't want to attempt to as a) the page is unavailable and b) I have no interest in being a member of facebook.


Ive changed the link, it should show up on page 3


If I linked to pictures of rats running around un-collected rubbish, or bodies that couldn't be buried due to strikes in the late 70's what would you think of that? What point are you trying to make.


Have i denied this country needed change in the 70's? No. Have stated i had a problem with how that woman and her party went about bringing that change? Yes.


As for your previous post around Tony Benn - you assume the UK was ruined, that is your opinion. At the end of the 70's we were literally close to real economic ruin - we were well known as the 'sick man of Europe' - don't you know any of this at all? Where do you get your facts? I'm being polite about this as all you do is spout the standard socialist worker responses with little actual fact.


Im fully aware of what was going on in the 70's but when i actually use my perspective i see how better off people were before privatisation. Before social housing got sold off. Before the unions were smashed.


Ah, you've pasted in the picture now. Can I ask for a source please? Lots of emotive statements on there without facts to back them up and (for the sake of Fudge) Atlee was picking up and riding off the back of a war - although I take nothing away from the establishment of the NHS.


Well, Atlee did alot of good for society considering half of the countries work force was missing. The point is, he did so much more for great Britain than thatcher could ever hoped to achieve, where was his St Pauls funeral service? The double standard once again comes into play.


Also, I do see it is from a source that is clearly shall we say..... misinformed or stupid? Thatcher didn't get a state funeral.


Not a full state funeral no, but 10 million out of the tax payers pocket and full military honours!? Please explain to me why she is so deserving of such a service!?

Jumping in shower after a 5 mile run.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by SearchLightsInc


Originally posted by something wicked




Also, I do see it is from a source that is clearly shall we say..... misinformed or stupid? Thatcher didn't get a state funeral.



Not a full state funeral no, but 10 million out of the tax payers pocket and full military honours!? Please explain to me why she is so deserving of such a service!?

Jumping in shower after a 5 mile run.


Well done on the run, after a serious accident I have recovered enough to do a 2km row in 10 minutes last night although I'm feeling it now.

I think the military honours are due to the fact that she was a war time PM as a result of the Falklands conflict - could be wrong. Like it or not I think it is more deserved for her than if Blair gets the same for Iraq and Afghanistan.

For what it's worth, it's not really worth comparing Attlee's send off to Thatchers is it? I don't agree with the bullet points in that graphic basically because you can't compare what Attlee inherited against the environment Thatcher took on - it really is too simplistic an argument which is why I think I can guess where it comes from.

By the way, apparently and I didn't know this until this week, the government covers the cost of the funeral of all former PM's. Thatcher made it extremely clear she didn't want a state funeral. Will be interesting to see what the send off for Blair will be when the time comes.

edit on 17-4-2013 by something wicked because: (no reason given)
edit on 17-4-2013 by something wicked because: (no reason given)
edit on 17-4-2013 by something wicked because: because getting the thing to look right is harder than actually typing the text
edit on 17-4-2013 by something wicked because: and again



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 12:04 PM
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ive seen this picture comparing atlee to thatcher ..for the record ..it wasnt atlee that instigated the nhs it was bevan

Aneurin Bevan
Secretary of State for Health
Aneurin "Nye" Bevan PC was a Welsh Labour Party politician who was the Minister for Health in the post-war Attlee government from 1945 to 1951, and also the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party from 1959 until his death in 1960. Wikipedia
Born: November 15, 1897, Monmouthshire
Died: July 6, 1960, Chesham
Spouse: Jennie Lee, Baroness Lee of Asheridge (m. 1934–1960)
Party: Labour Party

also in case anyone didnt know these facts here they are for your persual

1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
10. The poll tax
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
18. Section 28
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
23. She invented Quangos
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
42. 21.9% inflation



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by SearchLightsInc
 


Thatcher was, and will always be, a deeply divisive character. It has been said again and again. A meal was made out of a handful of peoples' reaction in Glasgow on the day she died. So I took myself into Glasgow today, not to dance on the woman's grave, but to record the response of people to the ceremonial funeral being held in London.

For sure we have a class divide in Britain - our leading politicians (from every party) all seem to come from elitist educational backgrounds. The directors of the BBC come from similar elitist backgrounds - and its just become all rather cosy and comfortable for all of them.

In the meantime the British people are being given absolutely zero political options. Our choices are right wing, or further right wing. In any event, once elected our politicians are loyal to their party and not to the people who elected them.

Thatcher's policies sold Britain Inc. to the highest bidder - and today we are all paying the price of those policies.




posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 12:21 PM
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Just saw a friend who works in London.

He watched the whole thing when he could outside his office, he also saw some protesting.


In his words:

"The protestors were fine, but what got me was the fact most of the ones I saw where our age (21-24)..Pretty sure most of them weren't alive, so why are they protesting?"


I will let you guys discuss, just adding to the conversation.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by eliteosbo
 



8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million


I don't know if you can recall when people used to receive unemployment benefit for a year? Under Thatcher that was reduced to 6 months and overnight the unemployment numbers almost halved.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by eliteosbo
ive seen this picture comparing atlee to thatcher ..for the record ..it wasnt atlee that instigated the nhs it was bevan

Aneurin Bevan
Secretary of State for Health
Aneurin "Nye" Bevan PC was a Welsh Labour Party politician who was the Minister for Health in the post-war Attlee government from 1945 to 1951, and also the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party from 1959 until his death in 1960. Wikipedia
Born: November 15, 1897, Monmouthshire
Died: July 6, 1960, Chesham
Spouse: Jennie Lee, Baroness Lee of Asheridge (m. 1934–1960)
Party: Labour Party

also in case anyone didnt know these facts here they are for your persual

1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
10. The poll tax
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
18. Section 28
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
23. She invented Quangos
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
42. 21.9% inflation


They aren't facts, they are a mixture of facts biased to meet your post and opinion. Why do you say "5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)" without saying how cramped business was in the 70s for example?

Black Wednesday was in 1992, 2 years after Thatcher left office.... where did you copy and paste this from? Is this what counts as a thesis these days?

I really couldn't care one way or another on a persons legacy as long as the facts are actually correct.Yours aren't but then all you really did is a copy and paste didn't you?



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 12:51 PM
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We are plebs in the eyes of the elitist politicians and upper class.

We are here to serve their needs and their needs alone. They want us out working for next to nothing and be thankful for it. There was outcry today about the fact that a caretaker in a primary school in Kent was paid £50,000 Per annum. However, taking a closer look at what he covered for the school included groundsman and ICT technician. I couldn't believe the comments from some people on the Radio today and they were mainly from plummy mouthed individuals, questioning the reasons for such a payment. What about the bankers? Six figure salaries and screwing us over time and time again.

Class rule has existed in the U.K for centuries and until we become a Republic with sweeping changes to the political system, this will be the status quo.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by something wicked
 


Okay apart from Black Wednesday being included, what else aren't facts on that long list?

We have discussed a number of things on several threads and you claimed you were not a Tory, yet you defend them at every opportunity.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by SearchLightsInc
 


We live in a corrupt society so are we really surprised that MT got a state funeral, funded by us and attended by 2k hand picked 'elite' guests?
Anyway, the lady's not for turning now, it's all over.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
reply to post by something wicked
 


Okay apart from Black Wednesday being included, what else aren't facts on that long list?

We have discussed a number of things on several threads and you claimed you were not a Tory, yet you defend them at every opportunity.



With respect, you are missing the point. Facts are either correct or they are not. I will defend if 'facts' are opinion based as fact if it's Blair or Thatcher or any of the others. Saying okay, one is wrong isn't good enough, it raises the need to review the others rather than a knee jerk acceptance.

For the record, where it's in an area I've got an interest in I'll do the same in ATS or other forums regardless of the subject - I've no bias apart from fact being fact rather than opinion based as fact.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 01:25 PM
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reply to post by something wicked
 


Almost all so-called facts are actually subjective opinion. You disagree with 'fact' # 5 but my own experience is quite different. In the 70's extremism existed within the trade unions and did their members no favours whatsoever (some even declaring a stated intention of wanting to bring down the company).

The unions were required - had they never existed and never had any power we'd still be sending kids up chimneys However during, and following, Thatcher's term in office the pendulum of power has swung way too much away from labour and way too close to capital. And really - look where that has got us.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by eliteosbo
 



8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million


I don't know if you can recall when people used to receive unemployment benefit for a year? Under Thatcher that was reduced to 6 months and overnight the unemployment numbers almost halved.

i do remember i had my benefit cut back then ..
and something wicked ..i didnt cut n paste it ..my son did .pedants are never gonna be happy with any facts are they ?..and half the internet is cut n paste ..its the new thing apparently ..these young whippersnappers eh and their new fangled technology ...

you say potato i say ..good riddance to the lowlife in high places .



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 01:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
reply to post by something wicked
 


Okay apart from Black Wednesday being included, what else aren't facts on that long list?

We have discussed a number of things on several threads and you claimed you were not a Tory, yet you defend them at every opportunity.



With respect, you are missing the point. Facts are either correct or they are not. I will defend if 'facts' are opinion based as fact if it's Blair or Thatcher or any of the others. Saying okay, one is wrong isn't good enough, it raises the need to review the others rather than a knee jerk acceptance.

For the record, where it's in an area I've got an interest in I'll do the same in ATS or other forums regardless of the subject - I've no bias apart from fact being fact rather than opinion based as fact.


With all due respect, I have looked at all the facts on that list and the only one I could say was incorrect (after reviewing them all) was the 'Black Wednesday' claim.

I appreciate it isn't helpful if there is a false claim in there, but I wouldn't expect anybody to take anything at face value. I would expect someone to look at the claims and then make their own minds up. And anyway, you were around to point out the error of the poster's ways.

We know Thatcher is as divisive in death as she was in lfe and I respect the call you made on the 'Black Wednsday' claim, but seriously calling all the other facts bias, really isn't helpful, unless you can provide evidence of this.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 02:09 PM
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While I am not in England,I am in a Gaming Guild based in England.When I read the OP,I asked my English friends on Team Speak if this was true (About the media not showing protests) and they did confirm that lots of the protesting (people turning their backs and what not) was edited out.

I am 46 y/o so I do remember her very well,but again,as a yank,and teenager during her reign,I really didnt follow her much,but I also asked my mates about her,and not a one of them had anything nice to say about her,and usually it ignited lots of swearing and cursing about her.



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 02:17 PM
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Thatcher divided the country like no modern Prime Minister. And it is difficult to look at her Premiership objectively. She did inherit a mess where union power was crippling the nation in the 1970s and inflation was rampant. However her draconian policies early in the 1980s would probably have lost her the next election had Labour not chosen to veer to the far left, causing a split with the SDP ,confusion with the electorate, and her playing a trump card with the Falklands war.

My main observation is that she appeared heartless and uncaring about the livelihoods she destroyed.

I have said in another post that for me the 1980s were the best of time and the worst of times personally. I was still in school in the early 1980s and got a good job as the decade was coming to a close. I did enjoy those times. It was my youth. But I am not blind and could see the devastation that she was causing to families put out of work and whole towns being thrown on the dole.

The legacy of this is the "non-working" class, where grandad was the last of the family to have a job. Some of these people scrape by on benefits, others turn to drugs and crime and yes some of them have large families and learn how to milk the welfare system. But let's not forget whose legacy it was.

Selling off the nationalised industries was a neat trick which no one seemed to notice at the time. The taxpaying public "owned" those industries not the Conservative Government. Everyone should have been granted a number of shares for free. But that isn't what happened. I'd say that was fraud on the populace.

Should those industries have been privatised or not? Some things needed to change for sure. But the energy industry made a dash for cheap gas fired power stations and most are now owned by foreign power companies. Now there is a looming energy supply problem and large investment needed in new power stations. If you think the power companies are ripping us off now then you might like to know things are not going to get better any time soon. We still have large supplies of coal in the UK but there is no one left to mine them any more and all the pits are closed anyway. Also a national water industry could have been able to supply the South of England where supplies often dwindle rapidly with a co-ordinated infrastructure. Public transport costs far too much as well. It is now often as cheap to hire a taxi as catch a bus.

We can argue about the economics all day to be honest and in fairness to Mrs Thatch certain areas of the nation and the financial service industries did rather well during her time. She's been out of office a long time and surely we can't pin blame for what happened in 00s. Traditionally working class people did still get free University places with a real chance of a great job in the 1980s. That's all changed now but hardly her fault. She did stand up for Britain in Europe. But then there's still questions over the Hillsborough cover-up and her part in that.

She's gone now and there will be no tears from me. Because once where there was harmony now there is discord. She encouraged the greedy, look after No.1, get what you can, grab it all now society. And it exists in every element, even down to the social underclass who don't work anymore. Make money out of whatever, however and whoever you can.

Not everyone believes that is all that life is about, but there are a lot more people like that since her time as PM.





edit on 17/4/13 by mirageman because: corrections



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by something wicked
 


Almost all so-called facts are actually subjective opinion. You disagree with 'fact' # 5 but my own experience is quite different. In the 70's extremism existed within the trade unions and did their members no favours whatsoever (some even declaring a stated intention of wanting to bring down the company).

The unions were required - had they never existed and never had any power we'd still be sending kids up chimneys However during, and following, Thatcher's term in office the pendulum of power has swung way too much away from labour and way too close to capital. And really - look where that has got us.



Errrr, it was a government act in the 19th century that stopped kids being sent up chimneys, not a union. That kind of proves my point without any further comment - don't you think this is where it's easy to use rhetoric to try and make a point but it doesn't actually work when you actually dissect it?



posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 02:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by eliteosbo

Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by eliteosbo
 



8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million


I don't know if you can recall when people used to receive unemployment benefit for a year? Under Thatcher that was reduced to 6 months and overnight the unemployment numbers almost halved.

i do remember i had my benefit cut back then ..
and something wicked ..i didnt cut n paste it ..my son did .pedants are never gonna be happy with any facts are they ?..and half the internet is cut n paste ..its the new thing apparently ..these young whippersnappers eh and their new fangled technology ...

you say potato i say ..good riddance to the lowlife in high places .


So your son did the cut and pasting, you didn't verify any of the facts and you seem to be criticising me for questioning it????????

Right, thanks for that. Thanks for the effort you did(n't) put into the discussion. The young whippersnapper went onto what, I guess a I hate Thatcher site, accepted the information without backing up whether it was accurate.... and that to you is a young whippersnapper? Not really, someone who can't think for themself - I'll grant you that, hope you are proud.





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