Democrats Need To Rethink Abortion Issue

If it is acceptable to prevent a women from "killing" her child by legally forcing a c-section....is it also acceptable to prevent people who refuse to provide support to these children to accept sterilization?

Originally posted by dawnstar
Hey, Bush's partial birth ban would have had more support and more than likely wouldn't have been considered unconstitutional if they had just put in provisions that would have ensured that it wouldn't have been denied to women who genuinely needed it to prevent death or servere health problems....
Definitely true! The conservatives are ironically some of the worst PR for Pro-Life there is! It's very sad! By being draconian (and tactless) about it and insisting that even women whose life depends on it cannot get an abortion, they have turned off scores of liberals and have been indirectly responsible for more pro-abortion legislation.

Originally posted by DiRtYDeViL
can get people to re think abortion and actually make pro choice law and move the on to real issues.

So what you're saying is that millions of fetuses being aborted is not even a "real issue"...

...do any of you guys & gals understand why so many religious types are freaked out by this mindset?

Originally posted by dawnstar
Hey, Bush's partial birth ban would have had more support and more than likely wouldn't have been considered unconstitutional if they had just put in provisions that would have ensured that it wouldn't have been denied to women who genuinely needed it to prevent death or servere health problems....

quote]


Just a question, but do you know what is involved in a partial birth abortion?

A woman begins to give birth to a live baby. Feet first. All but the head. (yes all but the head) The rest of the proceedure is rather gruesome and very painful for the babynot to mention very disturbing, so I will not go into it. My point is if a woman can give birth to a baby this far, surely she can finish the birth. If her life is in danger she can have an emergency c section. Babies can live outside the woumb after the 3rd trimester. This is proven. Choosing to have labor induced so one can kill the life inside because you don't want it is murder. plain and simple. Sorry, I just cant buy the whole life in danger thing.

Originally posted by MrNice
Abortion is the MURDER of an innocent child. The holocaust that has come about since Roe vs. Wade is a stain on our nation�s soul that will not easily be removed. It is of such magnitude that future generations will look back on this time we live in with horror.

No future generations will look back at this time we live in and say. Wow people were really so stupid to believe in a GOD, and be deceived by a man who was responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians across the globe, yet wanted to end abortion. Which he doesn�t and it�s obvious because the republicans are firmly in control of our government at every level and have been for awhile. They simply use the Christians as pawns cause they are stupid enough to believe in anything Jerry Farewell tells them too.
Republicans need the abortion issue to win without it they are #ed and they know it. It will never be illegal.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

So it is okay then to kill some but not all? What is the difference in the value of the life between the one you would willing sanction taking and the one you won't?

In every situation there are extreme cases. These extreme cases make up the minority of all cases. I don't believe that having an all-or-nothing view about abortion is the answer--because nothing in life is all-or-nothing. If it is medically proven that the woman is going to die if she doesn't get the baby out--she shouldn't be forced to die, that's an insane extreme-conservative viewpoint. But a teenager who had unprotected sex & now wants to get an abortion is not an "extreme case." Women who use abortion to "get rid of" an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy make up the bulk of abortion cases--and their situation does not justify killing a fetus. It is greatly inconvenient & heartrending & awful but it doesn't justify ending a life, sorry.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

So it is okay then to kill some but not all? What is the difference in the value of the life between the one you would willing sanction taking and the one you won't?

In every situation there are extreme cases. These extreme cases make up the minority of all cases. I don't believe that having an all-or-nothing view about abortion is the answer--because nothing in life is all-or-nothing. If it is medically proven that the woman is going to die if she doesn't get the baby out--she shouldn't be forced to die, that's an insane extreme-conservative viewpoint. But a teenager who had unprotected sex & now wants to get an abortion is not an "extreme case." Women who use abortion to "get rid of" an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy make up the bulk of abortion cases--and their situation does not justify killing a fetus. It is greatly inconvenient & heartrending & awful but it doesn't justify ending a life, sorry.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

So it is okay then to kill some but not all? What is the difference in the value of the life between the one you would willing sanction taking and the one you won't?

In every situation there are extreme cases. These extreme cases make up the minority of all cases. I don't believe that having an all-or-nothing view about abortion is the answer--because nothing in life is all-or-nothing. If it is medically proven that the woman is going to die if she doesn't get the baby out--she shouldn't be forced to die, that's an insane extreme-conservative viewpoint. But a teenager who had unprotected sex & now wants to get an abortion is not an "extreme case." Women who use abortion to "get rid of" an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy make up the bulk of abortion cases--and their situation does not justify killing a fetus. It is greatly inconvenient & heartrending & awful but it doesn't justify ending a life, sorry.

Originally posted by Cassie Clay

Originally posted by DiRtYDeViL
can get people to re think abortion and actually make pro choice law and move the on to real issues.

So what you're saying is that millions of fetuses being aborted is not even a "real issue"...

...do any of you guys & gals understand why so many religious types are freaked out by this mindset?

Cassie, you are absolute in your assessment. The liberal left does NOT see how out of touch their ideas are with mainstream america. Sheesh, the democrats have been voted out of the white house, the senate, the congress, and even the left leaning state of california governership, and STILL fail to see how their agenda is being rejected, hands down, by the american public. It is not just abortion, it is Gay marriage, the homosexual agenda, the second amendment, and a host of other "liberal" ideas which have resulted in the democrat's loss of power, yet they cling to the belief that they are right. Tom Daschle was voted out in South Dakota. He was replaced by a "Christian" man, yes? It's nuts, friggin' nuts how the liberals don't see this. Amazing!

No smokenmirrors the left doesn�t believe in god. Like in Europe most people don�t believe in god either. Things change when you don�t believe in God. You�re truly free!
Personally I don�t give a # if 2 men or women that are in love get married. It�s none of my business. Marriage is a joke in this country anyway. What�s the divorce rate at now 60%? You want to protect marriage then quit being hypocrites and stay married or better yet just outlaw divorce. Christians are such hypocrites. Understandably so you force yourself to live a unattainable sin free lifestyle.

It is a woman's right to have an abortion. A foetus is NOT a life. It's biomass. Useless. The brain and neural pathways are not even fully developed(and don't develop for a long time!) and the foetus in the stages that abortion is possible is nearly exactly the same of any other mammal.

To say that it is life is foolish christian rubbish.

ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. PRO CHOICE LETS THE WOMAN DECIDE. BUTT OUT.

drfunk

[edit on 3-11-2004 by drfunk]

If abortion is banned you will see many women taking it upon themselves to carry out their abortions. For example people who have money will be going to other countries for the procedure and using what methods we have here at taking overdose of hormone/birth control pills to do the job. Their are a few chemical ways to abort a fetus.

So what then? Ban birthcontrol all together? Hell, why not just ban what causes pregnancy..........SEX!

If I was pregnant and my doctor tells me at 2 months in that my fetus was seriously deformed, had no arms and legs, open skull with brain exposed etc and I could not have an abortion what the heck would I be forced to do. Carry this child til full term only to give birth to a dead or dying fetus. How sick is that?

Originally posted by smokenmirrors

Cassie, you are absolute in your assessment. The liberal left does NOT see how out of touch their ideas are with mainstream america. Sheesh, the democrats have been voted out of the white house, the senate, the congress, and even the left leaning state of california governership, and STILL fail to see how their agenda is being rejected, hands down, by the american public. It is not just abortion, it is Gay marriage, the homosexual agenda, the second amendment, and a host of other "liberal" ideas which have resulted in the democrat's loss of power, yet they cling to the belief that they are right.

Thank-you.
My question to you is: can people like me (who do believe in other liberal issues like gay rights) come to an understanding with people like you (who hold more conservative views) on this issue so we can make actual progress and save more lives?

As far as I know, every Democrat/liberal that I have mentioned my position on abortion to has reacted in complete and total horror. They all insist that a fetus is not really aive, they all drag out the "coathanger" justification, and they all do not fail to give a jab at the "backwards" religious groups who think abortion is murder.

And I think the fact I am a liberal on everything else but have seen fit not to robotically follow the Pro-Choice ideology really really makes them mad. I've been called anti-feminist (actually, I'm a big pain-in-the-ass feminist that has campaigned against sexual harassment & other issues), "a Christian nut" (even though I am not a Christian per se & have been extensively involved in alternative religion), or just a f**king b*tch (yes, these discussions do tend to devolve).

And so far I have heard no valid reason why abortion should not be considered murder. I'm for women's rights as much as anyone but we as a gender are not developing a lot of good karma for ourselves by embracing this as our defining right. I mean, yikes.

As far as a woman's body being her own, not to be legislated about--what about the growing body within the woman's body? A fetus is not a kidney or a pair of tonsils.

And you know what? It wasn't Christianity that finally convinced me that abortion was wrong. It was Wicca--ittaught me that everything in this world is precious with a divine spark, and that the soul is immortal. Maybe Christianity should have taught me those things, but Wicca expressed it in a way I could comprehend. Which makes the lack of pagan/Wiccan practioners who are Pro-Life quite appalling.

As for those who think religion is a crock (which seems often to go hand-in-hand with "Pro-choice") -- you still gotta share the earth with a whole lotta lotta lotta devoutly religious people. You don't have to change your beliefs, but trying to see things from other viewpoints than your own narrow point-of-view might be helpful. Not calling religious people "backwards idiots" is probably a good place to start.

by Margaret Atwood. Read it, reread it. It's coming true and it's a foul future for women, for all of us.

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
In every situation there are extreme cases. These extreme cases make up the minority of all cases. I don't believe that having an all-or-nothing view about abortion is the answer--because nothing in life is all-or-nothing.

Your point is important and reflective of the majority of Americans. Most are willing to tolerate abortions in the first trimester, the percentages drop dramatically for the second and continue to plummet for the third.

The extreme on both sides of this issue see it as a black and white issue. And this will be the downfall of Roe v. Wade if this election can be used as a barometer. Remember 10 states banned gay marriage. I can see the same thing happening to Roe v. Wade.

The Dems do need to rethink their stand on late term abortions. Course it could already be too late - Renhquist will probably announce his retirement in the next week or two and will be followed by a couple of others within a year.



B.

Originally posted by drfunk
It is a woman's right to have an abortion. A foetus is NOT a life. It's biomass. Useless. The brain and neural pathways are not even fully developed(and don't develop for a long time!) and the foetus in the stages that abortion is possible is nearly exactly the same of any other mammal.

To say that it is life is foolish christian rubbish.

ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. PRO CHOICE LETS THE WOMAN DECIDE. BUTT OUT.

drfunk

[edit on 3-11-2004 by drfunk]

Here is a link that shows photos of "useless biomass" & has a timeline of the development of the fetus. Of course, since it is from a Pro-Life, Christian website I know it's been already condemned as bogus to most of you. However, the timeline is taken from the New England Journal Of Medicine--and says that brainwaves have been recorded as early as 42 days.
www.prolife.com...

Originally posted by Saerlaith
by Margaret Atwood. Read it, reread it. It's coming true and it's a foul future for women, for all of us.

Read it. Still doesn't justify abortion, sorry.

Atwood's a good writer, tho.

I am not a religious person and I don't have any desire to have any religious fundametalist pushing his ideas on me.

That is all I have to said.

(I'm not a democrat or a republican - I'm a human).

Anywho, to wit:

Abortion = killing.
Killing = taking the life of a living thing.
Living things = things which are alive in the sense that they give and take from the resources here on the earth.

That being said:

-> Is a tree a living thing? (Yes)
-> Is a fish a living thing? (Yes)
-> Is a 3 week old fetus a living thing? (Duh, yes)

If they are all living, aren't they all equal? AGAIN - to repeat: If they are all living, aren't they all equal?


Do we truly believe that trees don't 'feel' it when you cut them down and burn them in your fireplace?
Do we really think that the bass we just caught doesn't 'feel' the pain of the knife as it's inserted into the abdomen and then rips and tears it's way up to the jawbone, spilling out all of its guts?
But of course we all believe that the fetus -- a proto-human -- feels pain, associates pain, and is a soul-ful being, and that killing them is wrong.

Then, a question: How can you -- in whatever beliefs and morals that you hold -- defend your position on human abortions when you ignore cutting down a tree or going fishing is just as moral and 'ok'.

In other words, if you say that a TREE and a BABY and a FISH are not all equal, then what is your basis to say that they aren't?

WHAT RULESET, what MORAL SET, defines that the tree and the fish and the baby ARE NOT equal? If you say the BIBLE is my ruleset (being that we're the 'masters' of all that is on the earth and we are Lords over fowl, fish and beast) -- that means that you base your morals on a book of faith, correct?

Please tell me then, how:

-> Killing a baby in the womb is wrong, but how invading a country and killing THOUSANDS of innocent women, children and men -- is OK?

Hypocrite! And to think you voted for blood hungry Bush. The Governer of Texas who put MULTIPLE MEN TO DEATH EVEN WHEN THEY BEGGED FOR MERCY? What Bible (NT, not OT) verse says "When your fellow man begs for forgiveness and mercy, stomp his soul into the dust and fry his arse?"

Thanks for voting for a killer. THANK YOU!!!!! You can kiss another several thousand people on this earth goodbye (civilians and military alike) from the undoutedbly protracted blood and oil fest that Iraq will end up becoming. THANKS BUSH FOR KILLING MORE PEOPLE BUT SAVING FETUSES! I guess it all 'equals out', huh?

To re-iterate: You voted for Bush because killing a fetus is not OK but killing kids in Iraq *is ok*?






[edit on 3-11-2004 by NextLevel]

Originally posted by marg6043
I am not a religious person and I don't have any desire to have any religious fundametalist pushing his ideas on me.

That is all I have to said.

Me neither. I think what happens in the bedroom or in your place of worship is your own business. It should not be legislated or oppressed or anything. And fundamentalist Christians are very guilty of pushing their agendas on people.

But life and death are pretty basic concepts.
You know: "Kill Bad," "Not-Kill Good."

Two guys snogging is not a moral issue, as far as I'm concerned; sucking a fetus out of a body with a vacuum & flushing it down the toilet is.