6 Sneaky Ways the Christian Right Foists Its Biblical Agenda on America

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Forcing a church to perform a homosexual wedding is ripping their way of life from them.

Then how about just letting the churches that don't mind doing it? Nobody has to be forced.

Tell that to the people filing lawsuits against those that refuse to participate in their homosexual weddings. There have also been attempts to pass laws that would force churches to participate, even if that violated their beliefs.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Hate speech laws that prevent pastors from preaching what the Bible states about homosexuality (which they already have in Canada, and many want here) rip their way of life from them.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
OK fair enough, but if preachers are going to harp on that. Then they should also preach about ...*snip*

Churches preach against a variety of sins. Plus, we aren't talking about OT punishments, but about immorality, and the freedom of a church to preach on that. The point is, they are free to preach whatever they want, as long as they don't advocate violence. Christian churches aren't advocating violence (and, no, that WBC bunch is NOT a Christian church, or anything close to "Baptist").

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
*snip*Christians always seem to pick and choose what they want to follow according to the bible so why not leave the whole homosexuality thing right there with all the other crap rules that Christians only follow when it is convenient for them.

Honest Christians try to follow the Bible. Food laws, if you read the entire thing, applied only to the Hebrew people, and were basically done away with in the NT. Moral laws are unchanged. If a behavior is a sin, it's a sin. That goes for adultery and promiscuous behavior as much as for homosexuality. It's also a fact that most churches don't preach on homosexuality. It's not exactly a regular topic. Most of what we get on Sunday is about salvation, a faithful walk, etc.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
How is anyone going to know you are praying in public? Unless you are someone who is making a big scene of praying instead of in your heart. Which even Jesus himself says in Luke is for show offs and people trying to make themselves look good.

Students have been told NOT to pray in school. They have been penalized for wearing a cross. Well, Christians have been told. In some places, Muslim prayer was given special times.
Nashville area
Maryland area
and in Wisconsin

www.christianpost.com...
Nobody is forcing people to live according to homosexual beliefs. Personally I don't really understand how another man could be attracted to another man especially when women are just so beautiful, but I don't have to understand it because I am straight. Nobody could "force" me to practice homosexuality if I did not want to. And just what pro-homosexual lessons are they teaching in school?

Children in the lower elementary grades are being taught that they should accept homosexuality as normal, even though that goes against the religious beliefs of MANY; including Christians and Muslims. Such teaching has NO place in the schools at all. Leave that for parents. Teach the kids reading, writing, arithmetic, history, science, etc, and leave the moral issues to the parent. Look for the "anti-bullying" homosexual that literally bullied the Christian students in an auditorium. THAT is what comes of treating one group as special. NO ONE should be bullied, and homosexuals aren't any more a target than any other student.

www.christianpost.com...
One of my best friends was gay. I never even knew it until I was friends with him for about 3 years. *snip* Bryan passed away from a heart attack in 2006 at the age of 38. His partner and he had been together over 15 years. Bryans life insurance and stocks that he had purchased gradually over the years went to his alcoholic hermit mother who lived 5 states away because that was his closest next of kin when he died. His partner should have been able to collect on that life insurance policy.

He clearly kept his personal business personal, which is as it should be (for anyone). I don't think people need to go around talking about their sex lives. As for his estate, he should have written a will. You can name anyone in a will.

Point 1: How is that Christian? Most people see the "environmental protection" for the scam it is...see one Mr Al Gorezeera
Point 2: How is this Christian? The department of education is unconstitutional and not a power granted to the government, it should be the responsibility of the states, a voucher system would "barely" scratch the surface on how to correct the failed bloated garbage known as the dept of education.
Point 3: Poorly written and complete nonsense, rachel maddow, really?
Point 4:
Actually as I am going through this article it is so poorly referenced and written I really cannot refute most of these claims, they are just blanket progressive generalized statements. Leftist referencing leftist, good stuff

reply to post by adjensen


You're right, it was the pew research center data collected in 2012 I was thinking of, not the census. I do tend to fudge remembering numbers in my head since the brain tumor and not sleeping in several days does not help much either. I will double check to make sure I don't post inaccuracies like that again. Sorry for that.

I was just trying to make the point that we live in a time in this country when the people who are not affiliated with any religion in this country is at an all time high. 1 out of 3 of people under he age of thirty claim none or atheist as their religion and that number is growing every year.

Perhaps most striking is that one-third of Americans under 30 have no religious affiliation. When comparing this with previous generations under 30, there's a new wrinkle, says Greg Smith, a senior research at Pew. Source: Pew Research Center for the People & the Press Credit: Matt Stiles/NPR "Young people today are not only more religiously unaffiliated than their elders; they are also more religiously unaffiliated than previous generations of young people ever have been as far back as we can tell," Smith tells NPR Morning Edition co-host David Greene. "This really is something new."

www.npr.org...

There is the research article if anyone is interested. Thanks for squaring me away Jenson

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Tell that to the people filing lawsuits against those that refuse to participate in their homosexual weddings. There have also been attempts to pass laws that would force churches to participate, even if that violated their beliefs.

Maybe this article would interest you.
seattletimes.com...

The claim: Opponents of same-sex marriage in Washington state have said there will be a rash of civil suits against individuals and businesses that don't want to provide wedding-related services to same-sex couples because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. What we found: Mostly false.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Churches preach against a variety of sins. Plus, we aren't talking about OT punishments, but about immorality, and the freedom of a church to preach on that. The point is, they are free to preach whatever they want, as long as they don't advocate violence. Christian churches aren't advocating violence (and, no, that WBC bunch is NOT a Christian church, or anything close to "Baptist"

Leviticus 20:13 forbids homosexuality. Leviticus 19:28 forbids tattoos. Why is it that I have never heard anyone preaching about the "immorality" of tattoos? Many more people have tattoos than are homosexual. Once again, because it is just not convenient for them to harp on about it.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes Moral laws are unchanged. If a behavior is a sin, it's a sin. That goes for adultery and promiscuous behavior as much as for homosexuality. It's also a fact that most churches don't preach on homosexuality. It's not exactly a regular topic. Most of what we get on Sunday is about salvation, a faithful walk, etc.

Its funny how it is a downplayed topic unless politics are involved. God forbid someone a Christian judges as a sinner tries to get the same legal benefits as a straight couple.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Students have been told NOT to pray in school. They have been penalized for wearing a cross. Well, Christians have been told. In some places, Muslim prayer was given special times.

Like I asked before, how is anyone going to know if you are praying or not? It depends on the school policy since you just pointed out prayer of all faiths is allowed in some schools.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Children in the lower elementary grades are being taught that they should accept homosexuality as normal, even though that goes against the religious beliefs of MANY; including Christians and Muslims. Such teaching has NO place in the schools at all. Leave that for parents. Teach the kids reading, writing, arithmetic, history, science, etc, and leave the moral issues to the parent. Look for the "anti-bullying" homosexual that literally bullied the Christian students in an auditorium. THAT is what comes of treating one group as special. NO ONE should be bullied, and homosexuals aren't any more a target than any other student.

I agree here. But the problem is many parents don't want to teach anything to their kids nowadays. Especially with the hard topics. Most parents can't even bring themselves to give the sex talk let alone explain what homosexual is. And there was a gay bully beating up on christians? Thats kinda funny actually. A link to the story would be nice if you have it.

All of this and you still haven't answered me about how letting gay people get married like straight people is going to affect anything about your life, marriage and morality. Gay people live together all the time just like straight people and the only difference is they don't have a piece of paper stating it. To me this is just one of those issues that Christians make a big fuss about because they can look like they are better than someone else they deem as a sinner.

And you did not answer any of my questions from your previous post.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

Wow you are really frustrating.

You have made some lengthy and intelligent-sounding posts, and you write well, but you are FAILING to see the main point:

These 6 things, that you keep saying are "Comminist" are the very things that the Christian Right-wing WANT.

It appears that you are aligned with:

big business interests as opposed to responsible stewardship of this planet (which belongs to the collective and that includes PLANTS and ANIMALS and YOU),

having 'control' of how children are taught in public schools from an early age (so you can indoctrinate them the way YOU want to, and shield them from exposure to diversity, science and modern understanding of history and FREE THINKING - did you go to, or send your children to Jesus Camp?)

refusing to acknowledge or accept that some people want to marry another person they love that YOU don't approve of, so YOU want to prevent them from doing so

.....and on and on.

I'm going to stop right there, because the 6 points are obvious.

What you are absolutely missing is that the 6 things, which you call Communist - are presented as the Christian Far-Right Coalition's agenda. THEY are wanting to impose those 6 things, and force people to accept them and behave in a "religious" manner that those people do not - and CAN NOT agree with!

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
I was just trying to make the point that we live in a time in this country when the people who are not affiliated with any religion in this country is at an all time high. 1 out of 3 of people under he age of thirty claim none or atheist as their religion and that number is growing every year.

Point taken, though the interesting thing about those statistics is that the number of people who don't believe in God hasn't really changed all that much. That would seem to indicate that either people are dropping out of Christianity (or another religion) while still having a belief in God, or their parents never took them to church, so they don't go either, and don't identify with one, though, again, they still have some belief in God.

GSS data show that Millennials' level of belief in God resembles that seen among Gen Xers when they were roughly the same age. Just over half of Millennials in the 2008 GSS survey (53%) say they have no doubt that God exists, a figure that is very similar to that among Gen Xers in the late 1990s (55%). Levels of certainty of belief in God have increased somewhat among Gen Xers and Baby Boomers in recent decades. (Data on this item stretch back only to the late 1980s, making it impossible to compare Millennials with Boomers when Boomers were at a similar point in their life cycle.) (Source)

I came across an oddball statistic yesterday which, I think furthers the confusion and/or misrepresentation of religion in America. Oddly, it comes from a Christian source: The Most Post-Christian Cities in America. Albany, NY boasts a 63% post-Christian population, and most of the cities are kind of what one would expect -- San Francisco, NYC, Portland, etc. until you get to #15 -- Cedar Rapids, IA, with a 49% post-Christian population.

Huh? That sent me to the statistics that the numbers are based on.

A person is defined as being "post-Christian" if they meet 60% of the following criteria:

1. do not believe in God
2. identify as atheist or agnostic
3. disagree that faith is important in their lives
4. have not prayed to God (in the last year)
5. have never made a commitment to Jesus
6. disagree the Bible is accurate
7. have not donated money to a church (in the last year)
8. have not attended a Christian church (in the last year)
9. agree that Jesus committed sins
10. do not feel a responsibility to “share their faith”
11. have not read the Bible (in the last week)
12. have not volunteered at church (in the last week)
13. have not attended Sunday school (in the last week)
14. have not attended religious small group (in the last week)
15. do not participate in a house church (in the last year)

With 15 points, one roughly falls into that 60% category if they fail to do six of those, and one can see that a typical "lukewarm Christian" fails a lot of them -- #3, #4, #5 (for non-Evangelicals,) #7, #8, #10 - #15.

Does this make them non-Christians? Well, by that guy's definition, it does -- if you are a non-Evangelical who doesn't go to church every week and doesn't give money to the church, then you are a post-Christian. By his statistical methodology, I would guess that 80% of typical church going Catholics and mainline Protestants are "post-Christians".

That's just nuts, and like I said, the group that put that together is a Christian organization.

O' those horrible horrible people!! and that horrible horrible book!!

GASP!!

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Forcing a church to perform a homosexual wedding is ripping their way of life from them.

Can you site even ONE case where a church was forced to marry a gay couple?

Hate speech laws that prevent pastors from preaching what the Bible states about homosexuality (which they already have in Canada, and many want here) rip their way of life from them.

If it's not happening in the US, then it's irrelevant.

Prayer is ALREADY prohibited in many PUBLIC places, which, yet again, rips their way of life from them.

There are limits on religious practice... That has NOTHING to do with gay marriage.

Anti-Christian zealots have NO RIGHT to dictate the behavior of Christians, or tell Christians that they must live according to homosexual beliefs.

How are Christians being forced to "live according to homosexual beliefs"???

Legally forcing Christians to accept something that goes against their beliefs is wrong.

No one is forcing the religious right to accept homosexual marriage. That's impossible. Christians are free to think it's wrong. They are not, however free to force others to live according to biblical teachings.

Let ME be clear that I don't mean all homosexuals. I am talking about the activists, who feel they have a mission to convert the world through force.

Convert them to what? Being gay? Marrying someone of their own gender? Are you suggesting that activists such as myself are trying to convert Christians to be gay?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Forcing a church to perform a homosexual wedding is ripping their way of life from them.

Can you site even ONE case where a church was forced to marry a gay couple?

How about:

Gay Danish couples win right to marry in church

The country's parliament voted through the new law on same-sex marriage by a large majority, making it mandatory for all churches to conduct gay marriages. Under the law, individual priests can refuse to carry out the ceremony, but the local bishop must arrange a replacement for their church. (Source)

Sounds like they are being forced to do it in Denmark.

reply to post by adjensen


I'm going under the assumption we are addressing the OP: 6 Sneaky Ways the Christian Right Foists Its Biblical Agenda on America. In other words, freedom of religion is VERY different in the states (highly protected) from that in other parts of the world.

Please site a case IN THE US of a church being forced to marry a gay couple. Thank you.

reply to post by adjensen


Like BH said above, if it's not happening in the US, it's irrelevant.

And if priests or pastors are allowed to 'opt out' then they aren't being forced to do it, are they?

Honestly I don't know why a homosexual couple would want the 'approval' of a church that despises them, anyway.

Originally posted by adjensen
Point taken, though the interesting thing about those statistics is that the number of people who don't believe in God hasn't really changed all that much. That would seem to indicate that either people are dropping out of Christianity (or another religion) while still having a belief in God, or their parents never took them to church, so they don't go either, and don't identify with one, though, again, they still have some belief in God.

I would say I fall into this group. And I know many people my age (mid 30's) that would fall into that category as well. We believe in god, but don't agree with many of the things the church teaches about God. But I also think a big problem is that alot of the young people that don't go to any type of church do not really nourish their spiritual side at all. I think they don't really know how to because they think you can't be spiritual without being religious

Interesting survey you posted. It seems to me that whoever performed that survey was purposely skewing it to make it appear like Godlessness is running rampant.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

I made this post in another thread, and it applies to this one, too:
Progressive's History and Mission
Just a tiny c/p from their 'About Us' page:

It steadfastly stands against militarism, the concentration of power in corporate hands, and the disenfranchisement of the citizenry.

It champions peace, social and economic justice, civil rights, civil liberties, human rights, a preserved environment, and a reinvigorated democracy.

Its bedrock values are nonviolence and freedom of speech.

Can you please explain to me what is wrong with those things 'Progressivism' stands for? And how any of it is "communist" in any way?

Progressives are being persecuted by the Christian Evangelical Right, accused of being 'commies', and it just isn't so.

All of us understand that ONLY SOME Christian types (which happen to be the loudest and most prevalent, just as adjensens' census-related chart above shows) are seen as dangerous and yes, scary. Why do they ALSO try to label Progressives as communists? Perhaps I'll make a thread to educate people about what Progressives really want - and it's NOT COMMUNISM.
Sheesh.

Christian Minister: Many American Christian Leaders Are Authoritarian Bullies
Another related article, again from alternet, but originally from a third site called 'Consortium News". The Rev. Howard Bess wrote it.

“The Bible says…”is the sledge hammer of Protestant Christianity.

The message is all too plain: Get in line or you are headed for punishment, rejection or even Hell. It is the ultimate bullying tool because it is difficult for a parishioner to out-gun a holy god who has spoken with finality and without error.

Dynamic and authoritarian preachers are especially good at Bible rhetoric that is calculated intimidation. Preachers may be the most skilled persons in our society in the practice of bullying.

And then there are the creeds, which were originally devised to force conformity to Christian belief. The creeds of Christianity have been and are regularly used as the club for bullying.

Again, the message is clear: Agree or be denied ordination; agree or be silenced; agree or be censored; disagree and be labeled a heretic and be excommunicated.

And for emphasis, here is the sentence that precedes the above thoughts. Remember, the author is a retired BAPTIST Minister himself:

I cringe every time I hear preachers and devout Christians declare “The Bible says…” Rarely do they identify the author or the circumstance of the passage to which they refer.

I just went to Consortium News due to this article linked in alternet. Looks to be pretty thorough and an alternative news site I hadn't run across before. Stay tuned for future threads possibly drawn from there.

reply to post by wildtimes


I'll have to check that site out. Thanks for bringing it to attention. I was just reading an article that I thought you might find interesting also.

www.realclearscience.com...

Respondents’ characterizations of God were gleaned from their opinions of how six adjectives — absolute, critical, just, punishing, severe, or wrathful — applied to God. A numbering system was used to gauge the degree to which the subject viewed the adjective as an accurate descriptor of God (very well = 4; somewhat well = 3, not very well = 2, etc.). In a similar fashion, respondents answered queries designed to measure the five aforementioned psychiatric symptoms. The researchers found that belief in a punitive God was significantly associated with an increase in social anxiety, paranoia, obsession, and compulsion. Conversely, belief in a benevolent God was associated with reductions in those four symptoms. Belief in an indifferent God was not linked to any symptoms. - See more at: disinfo.com...

I suppose it is really not that related to the thread topic and I apologize if it seems like I am trying to derail the thread. I found the results of this particular gallup poll intersting though.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior


I don't think you're derailing at all. I think the two issues are quite closely linked, actually, and that there is some 'damage' done to children brought up in the Evangelical system, which of course, they don't outgrow, and then they BECOME Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and John Hagees - which is who we are talking about here.

You might like to take a look at one of my other threads on that very subject:
www.abovetopsecret.com... (not posting the title of it as it might provoke some readers and THEN we will be derailed. But, you can find more info there.) Actually, it'd be great if you want to cross-post yours above into that thread, too.

Of course, the credit goes to you for finding that article, and it would be an awesome addition to the other thread. If you don't want to cross-post it, I will post there with it as a source. Thanks for bringing it to light!!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by adjensen

 

Please site a case IN THE US of a church being forced to marry a gay couple. Thank you.

NPR Article from 2008

A privately owned Methodist campground (private property) was shut down because it refused to allow a gay couple to marry in the pavilion.

Read the article for a (5 year old!) list of cases, such as Catholic adoption services being shut down in Massachusetts for refusing to furnish a child to a lesbian couple.

Yeshivia Univerisity in NYC was forced to allow gay couples to live in the university's privately-owned dorm, even though such a relationship is not recognized by the institution. (and wasn't by the state of new york in 2008).

read the full article for more fun.

NPR would never run an article like that today....

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

Like BH said above, if it's not happening in the US, it's irrelevant.

She asked for one church that's been forced, not one American church. Frankly, I see Europe as being a bit of a preview of America, as regards societal issues, so I don't think it is "irrelevant." A few laws in the United States that legalize gay marriage and clarify "gay rights", and it is no stretch for someone to sue a church for discrimination by not allowing them to be married, and under those laws, who do you think the court will be siding with? The Constitution says the government (well, Congress) cannot establish a church, it doesn't say that the government can't regulate them. Obama’s campaign defends church regulation.

I am against gay marriage, not because I'm against gays or against them enjoying the same rights and privileges of heterosexual couples (so I am very much in favour of civil unions, for both gays and straights,) but because they're doing the same thing that they did to get abortion made legal -- they are redefining a word, and as a result of that redefinition, yes, I believe that churches can, and will, be forced to marry people that their theology says they can't.

And if priests or pastors are allowed to 'opt out' then they aren't being forced to do it, are they?

Read that piece that I posted above -- the priests are allowed to not do it, but the church is not. I presume that, if the bishop can't find someone who will do it, either he'll have to do it himself, or someone's going to jail.

Honestly I don't know why a homosexual couple would want the 'approval' of a church that despises them, anyway.

There are loads of gay Catholics and gay Evangelicals, because the church doesn't "despise" them, and it is their faith of choice.

However, I suspect that if a homosexual couple attempts to be married in a manner that forces the issue into the courts, they don't need to be Catholic or Evangelical, just activists, and every issue has plenty of those.

reply to post by tovenar


A. It was a camp ground pavilion, that is open to the public, not a church.
B. It was a civil union, not a "marriage".
C. The Methodist clergy did NOT perform any ceremony. No one was FORCED to marry them.
D. The church was not forced to shut down. They just had their tax exemption for the pavilion removed.

reply to post by adjensen


I am not speaking to the laws of other countries. If you want to bring in other country's laws, we can talk about gay discrimination in Iran. It's CLEAR this is about the laws in the US. If you want to talk about other countries, start another thread. THIS one is about "America".

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's CLEAR this is about the laws in the US. If you want to talk about other countries, start another thread. THIS one is about "America".

I believe that I laid out my case regarding American law fairly clearly.

Gripe about the "Christian Right" being against gay marriage all you want, but from the perspective of the church, the fact that they are not currently forced to conduct such marriages, as is the case elsewhere in the world, is no assurance that they will not be forced to do so in the future.

Hence their fighting it, and it's not just the "Christian Right" that is doing so.