The Long Shadow Of Katrina: Military Snipers Engaging U.S. Citizens?

have we really reached the point where the only way to deal with a large crises is to prepare to kill as many as possible?

have we reached the point where in order to prepare for a natural catastrophic event, folks need to approve evacuation plans, food and water resource mgmt, housing and preparing all emergency staff folks by ordering them to practice "shooting to kill" on targets the containing men and women they are supposed to help? "You'll be helping Mary Alice here, now, practice blowing her head off..."

When did the reality of our world become so vicious that killing, by people hired on the spot, is not only acceptable, it is the morally right thing to do? Worse, we entrust this killing process to people who can't seem to find a moral compass, let alone have one - search NO Katrina police trial.

How is it that a man can be told to "help" people in trouble, with a gun, and also be told to kill them if needed, and this all makes perfect sense?

There was a time, not long ago, really not that long ago, where GUNS where not the first item on the "help the people in distress list," and killing in a crises was not only not acceptable, those who thought such things were considered immoral and inhuman.

Best never to be in need in this world we live in, as you are more likely to see a gun barrel then a scrap of food while suffering from a problematic event.

reply to post by crankyoldman

have we really reached the point where the only way to deal with a large crises is to prepare to kill as many as possible?

Not “WE” – it's TPTB!

You act as though some of us think this is a viable plan for saving people; it’s not nor is it designed to be.

In the future it will be an effective means of eliminating non-Kool Aid drinkers (all threats to the usurpation of power by TPTB) during the chaos of events like Katrina or intentionally initiated events like 9/11. Katrina may have been a small scale dry run to see how people react.

Have you seen all of the recent conditioning operations by the military and LE lately?



These are dry runs and conditioning operations for what is likely to come…soon.

reply to post by swan001


Sorry, very sorry, for your correction is right on. I was, after all reading a quoted reference....just thought the info was pretty importantly in need of correction and should not have attributed the mistakes therein to you.
Thanks for setting that straight.
Yes, I was here, during the storm, after for a few days, months before I could return home, to find it is not my home, and perhaps never was. But that is another story and another thread. And yes, I am still here, in my home/non-home....sometimes feels like prison. But, oh well. I'm still breathing, ain't I. Or, I think I am, anyway.....
Little attempt at humor there.
Thanks for the condolences.

Originally posted by sealing
I believe it.
Good topic for sure.
Not really hard to accept at all if one lives in the real world.
Now for the part where I'll lose 90% of ATS...

A disaster in "minority" majority city like New Orleans
would never pass the sniff test in a "white" city.

Now instead of it being Bush's command over New Orleans
imagine this disaster in say Charlotte NC?
With president Obama at the helm.

Snipers taking out white looters or gun owners ?
to restore order? How would that go over?

Well I'll tell you..,
it would go over about as well if the Black Panthers
decided to exercise their constitutional right and carried assault rifles at the mall.
you know ..where your pretty wife and daughter shop..

Double standards indeed.

Although I get entirely what you are saying, I would say to you, having experienced and witnessed it, it is not as simple, nor perhaps at all, about race. That's the way it is sold to you, to divide and concquer, and bring about that race war which will justify, after all, the whole DHS.....and patriot act, and fema camps, if they do exist, which being a Katrina survivor, would say they likely do.....
But I beg of everyone thinking on such things, to move beyond the race thing, because, this, in fact, is only the very surface of a very deep pool.....

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by crankyoldman

 

have we really reached the point where the only way to deal with a large crises is to prepare to kill as many as possible?

Not “WE” – it's TPTB!

You act as though some of us think this is a viable plan for saving people; it’s not nor is it designed to be.

That is not entirely accurate, as far as I know, Obama has never killed anyone, he has simply told people to do it and they do. So, while TPTB make suggestions, in the end it is "we" that do their bidding because we want to. They have people standing in line to get guns and gun training for killing people in an emergency, and those people are YOUR friends, family and neighbors - no politicians are ever included in the grunt work. The we is we.

Id really like to get to the bottom of the story about the Norleans Police engaging Federal operators attempting to blow, having blown the levy....i heard firefight, and casualties...is this true or not?
Even up here in Canada, that rumour persist the Feds blew the levy to "reclaim" the land it flooded.....regardless of the human cost....

I'm not a typical poster on ats but read often. When I saw this thread, I had to comment. I was there, I saw it. Maybe not the famous sniper or people getting shot, but something. It was about day 3 or 4 after the storm. Operations was still working out of the dome. I saw 3 soldiers with beards get off a shanook and talk with Gen Honore and a Guard Colonel. They were geared down with flack jackets and tons of ammo. They went out into the business district for about an hour or so, on foot I believe. Then they came right back and boarded a shanook and left. We could hear distant shots all the time so I can't pin anything on them. However, they showed up like they had a mission and left like they accomplished it. This was one of the coolest things I ever saw. One of my most vivid memories as a former soldier.

Originally posted by Vasa Croe

Originally posted by macman
sofrep.com...

Definitely worth the read.

I will vouch for the guys on the site.

This is a very telling article on how and what the Fed Govt will deal with citizens.

I personally have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, the people that were supposedly taken out, were bad people. But, they should have been arrested and faced the courts and justice in that matter.

Interesting this comes up. I have a very close personal friend that went in with Kroll for executive extractions in Louisiana when this happened. He too had to engage and kill quite a few people in the area because there was all out mayhem going on there. As far as I know from what he said there were no holds and it was basically considered a war-zone for contractors at the time. While it may not have been right, the folks they were protecting were not out looting and killing others which is exactly what was going on in most areas. A lot of the looters were heavily armed with rifles themselves and were actively entering homes and businesses looking for anyone and anything they could take and make money on.

My friend says that while he did not want to, there were times when he had to shoot to kill.

"Executive extractions" is a metaphor for rescuing rich people?

Just clarifying: executive generally means "following out from the head/top of something" and extractions means "getting (something/someone) out"

Originally posted by Sphota

Originally posted by Vasa Croe

Originally posted by macman
sofrep.com...

Definitely worth the read.

I will vouch for the guys on the site.

This is a very telling article on how and what the Fed Govt will deal with citizens.

I personally have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, the people that were supposedly taken out, were bad people. But, they should have been arrested and faced the courts and justice in that matter.

Interesting this comes up. I have a very close personal friend that went in with Kroll for executive extractions in Louisiana when this happened. He too had to engage and kill quite a few people in the area because there was all out mayhem going on there. As far as I know from what he said there were no holds and it was basically considered a war-zone for contractors at the time. While it may not have been right, the folks they were protecting were not out looting and killing others which is exactly what was going on in most areas. A lot of the looters were heavily armed with rifles themselves and were actively entering homes and businesses looking for anyone and anything they could take and make money on.

My friend says that while he did not want to, there were times when he had to shoot to kill.

"Executive extractions" is a metaphor for rescuing rich people?

Just clarifying: executive generally means "following out from the head/top of something" and extractions means "getting (something/someone) out"

It is exactly that....rescuing people who have the money and connections to be rescued. The fear was either death or being "kidnapped" and held for a ransom. There were quite a few of them to get out.

reply to post by crankyoldman

That is not entirely accurate, as far as I know, Obama has never killed anyone, he has simply told people to do it and they do. So, while TPTB make suggestions, in the end it is "we" that do their bidding because we want to. They have people standing in line to get guns and gun training for killing people in an emergency, and those people are YOUR friends, family and neighbors - no politicians are ever included in the grunt work. The we is we.

You have a point there, friend!

There are always willing participants to man the gas chambers, aren’t there?

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by macman

 

In all honesty, that is the one element of a societal break-down scenario I fear most; rogue commandos with excellent training and propensity to engage and kill targets. The only things even remotely as bothersome are the violent cartels with unlimited supplies, big numbers and ruthless efficiency.

Katrina was YEARS ago and this information was almost completely buried…successfully. I think you’re right that we can assume, based on the actions during and after Katrina, that the government will use this type of force without pause. The only unknown is how many operators they have to do this dirty work? Replicating this response on a national scale seems like a nearly impossible task.

And not all of those highly trained military people will be on the side of the government either.

I'd imagine the best that any government force could do would be to secure isolated areas. Small isolated areas with any effectiveness. Beyond that they will not be able to maintain control. They simply will never have the numbers.

It is important, though, within your judgement of the situation, to factor in is the sheer shock that some kind of cataclysmic event, which was defintitely present and ongoing in this case, and played a huge part--how can it not? In this case, shock played a huge role, and I don't think you will find anyone who was there would argue with that at all. Having been through other hurricanes and their aftermath, I can tell you that just some kind of presence that indicates, and very often reassures, instead of promoting fear, like, say a National Guardsman holding a machine gun, at the entrance to a convenience store, where they are letting in three people at a time to get supplies, while handling the transactions with a calculator, or a piece of paper and a pen and someone's mind. In that case, hours after the storm had moved through, fear was usually not the reaction to that, for after the cataclysm and being in shock, most understood that the soldier was present as much to protect us by the control of the gun, than to hurt us.

After Katrina, and the city having some of the "reputation" it has, some of which has shown up in this thread, it was days before anything like that happened and made all the difference, even just psychologically, for when there wasn't any seeking of "order," while allowing people to provide and take care of themselves, while in shock and due to flooding, which was on going after the storm passed. at the same time even a symbol of order and protection would have meant everything and allowed for different reactions by the populus. In other words, the lack of what I describe going on that long after, spelled out to people, whether there were other conditions that prevented response or not, that they didn't matter.....and this is a big part of "losing it," in various different ways, at that point.

Consider people looting for very diferent reasons, and the response or lack thereof, circumstances that greatly affect how people react in that aftermath. Some looted, yes, for ridiculous items in their current circumstances--large screen televisions with no electricity, and knowing it would be a long time before there was any. If you were still in shock from the event, seeing this compounded it, and then a lot of what you saw made you wonder if there would ever again be anything like electricity, so apocalyptic did the event then seem to be.

But others looted batteries, food, water, etc....and their "looting" often did not take place until days after when it became necessary for survival.....as if you have any prep time, these things get sold out. They also run out after enough time.

I should some kind of disclaimer, here, that nothing I posted as an example here was intended to be any reflection on the National Guard, per se......I only used that example because it was something I saw in another state, after another hurricane, at another time.

Originally posted by stirling
Id really like to get to the bottom of the story about the Norleans Police engaging Federal operators attempting to blow, having blown the levy....i heard firefight, and casualties...is this true or not?
Even up here in Canada, that rumour persist the Feds blew the levy to "reclaim" the land it flooded.....regardless of the human cost....

This is something I doubt anyone will ever truly know....not saying it isn't known if levies were blown, but you are jumping to some other conclusions about how, who and why there.