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The Long Shadow Of Katrina: Military Snipers Engaging U.S. Citizens?

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posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:01 AM
link   
sofrep.com...

Definitely worth the read.

I will vouch for the guys on the site.

This is a very telling article on how and what the Fed Govt will deal with citizens.

I personally have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, the people that were supposedly taken out, were bad people. But, they should have been arrested and faced the courts and justice in that matter.




posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:07 AM
link   
For those who want a preview of the link:


In early 2012, I had an unexpected conversation with my friend Chris Kyle (author of American Sniper) about the Katrina debacle. I had heard rumblings about Special Operations snipers being deployed to New Orleans to support the effort to restore order. He confirmed the rumors and shared his own intimate knowledge that close contacts of his, many active duty Spec Ops snipers (some Navy SEALs), took leave to work for the controversial PMC (Private Military Company), Blackwater.

We carried on with our own personal conversation on the morality of it all over many beers, and into the early San Diego morning. It clearly bothered him, and it still bothers me. It’s obviously a very uncomfortable topic. However, if we continue to ignore what really went down, history has taught us that it will come back and bite us in the ass. I personally don’t like repeating my mistakes: make them, learn from them, and move on.
The problem with Katrina is that an important lesson wasn’t learned, and it’s continuing to be ignored. The morality of what went down when Martial Law was declared is an important topic of discussion. Private Military Contractors (PMCs), police units, and military had an impossible job, no argument there. However, killing fellow American citizens with Iraq-style ROE, all in the name of restoring order, should be looked at and learned from. Unless, of course, we are ok with putting due process and the Constitution on the back burner in these situations. I personally would not like to continue down a path towards Oceania.
In 2005, the most destructive hurricane, Katrina, struck the Atlantic coast. It would turn out to be one of the most costly natural disasters in U.S. history. A part of that cost is the unspoken toll on the American soul. This is what we will focus on, it is the stuff people want to put under the bed and forget.
Many lessons learned have come out of the U.S. response to Katrina, but most of the expensive government studies have dealt with streamlining command structure and logistics. Apparently, nobody wants to tear off the scab and have a philosophical conversation about the morality of what really went down when Martial Law was declared. A quick search on Google relative to Katrina will bring up the New Orleans horror stories: racial profiling, murder, rape, police cover up, and rogue private military contractors a la Blackwater’s poor hiring practices (I’ve witnessed this first hand in Iraq).
Why wasn’t this a bigger deal in the media at the time? Because press coverage was extremely limited. So now all we are left with is rumor and a few courageous individuals who are slowly coming out of the shadows to tell the truth.
[...]



In an hour-long conversation I had with four Blackwater men, they characterized their work in New Orleans as “securing neighborhoods” and “confronting criminals.” They all carried automatic assault weapons and had guns strapped to their legs. Their flak jackets were covered with pouches for extra ammunition.
When asked what authority they were operating under, one guy said, “We’re on contract with the Department of Homeland Security.” Then, pointing to one of his comrades, he said, “He was even deputized by the governor of the state of Louisiana. We can make arrests and use lethal force if we deem it necessary.” The man then held up the gold Louisiana law enforcement badge he wore around his neck. Blackwater spokesperson Anne Duke also said the company has a letter from Louisiana officials authorizing its forces to carry loaded weapons.
“This vigilantism demonstrates the utter breakdown of the government,” says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights. “These private security forces have behaved brutally, with impunity, in Iraq. To have them now on the streets of New Orleans is frightening and possibly illegal.” -From a CBS report and column by Jeremy Schahill
Rumors persisted while we were in New Orleans, things ranging from the crazy (some Cops were killed and skinned last night) to the lame (I hear we are here till Christmas). Like any deployment, we hated being in the rear. Every minute spent at the Naval Annex was another minute you could get screwed just for being there. One instance comes to mind, when the commanding general flew in and saw us practicing battle drills and glass houses. He freaked out and demanded that we tear that stuff down and don’t do it. Well, as soon as his bird took off we had those things set right back up. I was exposed to government agencies and it made me realize something, this was their “Iraq.” There were rumors of DEA, US Marshals and ATF getting into OIF style engagements. I personally didn’t see or hear of anything like that, but these dudes rolled around like it was Baghdad/Ramadi/Normandy. -82nd Airborne Soldier



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by macman
 


Nice find mate!



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by macman
sofrep.com...

Definitely worth the read.

I will vouch for the guys on the site.

This is a very telling article on how and what the Fed Govt will deal with citizens.

I personally have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, the people that were supposedly taken out, were bad people. But, they should have been arrested and faced the courts and justice in that matter.



Interesting this comes up. I have a very close personal friend that went in with Kroll for executive extractions in Louisiana when this happened. He too had to engage and kill quite a few people in the area because there was all out mayhem going on there. As far as I know from what he said there were no holds and it was basically considered a war-zone for contractors at the time. While it may not have been right, the folks they were protecting were not out looting and killing others which is exactly what was going on in most areas. A lot of the looters were heavily armed with rifles themselves and were actively entering homes and businesses looking for anyone and anything they could take and make money on.

My friend says that while he did not want to, there were times when he had to shoot to kill.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by swan001
 


First, this hurricane struck the GULF COAST, not the Atlantic. New Orleans was the epicenter of the activity described involving Blackwater. The hurricane, though, affected the entire Gulf Coast to some degree, from New Orleans to Gulfport (Mississippi Gulf Coast), to Alabama, to Florida.

Second, there are various reasons, and all of them solid, why people who experienced and saw "things" as well as had crimes committed against and upon their persons, are not jumping up and down to tell of what happened to them or what they saw. If the men who contracted for Blackwater are now ready to stand up and tell what their orders were and what transpired, good on them. I suspect there are many such men who are haunted by what transpired in this city, and what was demanded of them.

It is quite easy to say that those "taken out" were bad people, or criminals.....quite easy. And I'm not so sure that should be accepted across the board for what went down--at all.

And that's all I feel comfortable saying at this point, as I live here. And survived what you speak of, but I will never be the same again, and there are many more like me, and many who died.....



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:19 AM
link   
I believe it.
Good topic for sure.
Not really hard to accept at all if one lives in the real world.
Now for the part where I'll lose 90% of ATS...

A disaster in "minority" majority city like New Orleans
would never pass the sniff test in a "white" city.

Now instead of it being Bush's command over New Orleans
imagine this disaster in say Charlotte NC?
With president Obama at the helm.

Snipers taking out white looters or gun owners ?
to restore order? How would that go over?

Well I'll tell you..,
it would go over about as well if the Black Panthers
decided to exercise their constitutional right and carried assault rifles at the mall.
you know ..where your pretty wife and daughter shop..

Double standards indeed.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:21 AM
link   
Not saying it didn't happen like this but all I am seeing are secondary sources.

"I knew this guy" or "I had a talk with this guy"......any sort of official memos or anything to back these stories up or are we just relying on heresay.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:23 AM
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I think Katrina was/is a forecast of what would happen in a real SHTF scenario.

Three days is all it took for a major American city to descend into total lawless chaos full of murder, robberies and rape. Sometimes I will be discussing what would happen if the lights went out or some other SHTF event with friends or family. Sometimes they naively say, "Well, people would generally be alright without being forced to be nice." However they never can answer why New Orleans descended into chaos so quickly and absolutely.

Not only can much be learned from the event itself, but also from the government response.

It being a minority city might have something to do with it, but just to keep the flame wars down I'll not touch that topic right now.

Nice thread OP. SnF.
edit on 15-4-2013 by Cancerwarrior because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:25 AM
link   

Originally posted by sealing
I believe it.
Good topic for sure.
Not really hard to accept at all if one lives in the real world.
Now for the part where I'll lose 90% of ATS...

A disaster in "minority" majority city like New Orleans
would never pass the sniff test in a "white" city.

Now instead of it being Bush's command over New Orleans
imagine this disaster in say Charlotte NC?
With president Obama at the helm.

Snipers taking out white looters or gun owners ?
to restore order? How would that go over?

Well I'll tell you..,
it would go over about as well if the Black Panthers
decided to exercise their constitutional right and carried assault rifles at the mall.
you know ..where your pretty wife and daughter shop..

Double standards indeed.


Well.....that is coming from the side that all those killed were minorities or black and I can assure you they were not. The majority I would say yes, but not all. I would also have to point out that the majority of looters and those with weapons in the street WERE minorities though....so by sheer numbers of whom was out trying to loot and cause harm of course they would be the ones shot most often.

New Orleans is not exactly a safe place...been there and encountered not so safe a few times so speaking from experience.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
I think Katrina was/is a forecast of what would happen in a real SHTF scenario.

Three days is all it took for a major American city to descend into total lawless chaos full of murder, robberies and rape. Sometimes I will be discussing what would happen if the lights went out or some other SHTF event with friends or family. Sometimes they naively say, "Well, people would generally be alright without being forced to be nice." However they never can answer why New Orleans descended into chaos so quickly and absolutely.

Not only can much be learned from the event itself, but also from the government response.

Nice thread OP. SnF.


Well is that good news or bad news in your view. Obviously the government was beyond ineffective in their ability to control even one city so how are they going to control and entire nation?

I'd say that Katrina represents the total lack of organization any government unit has when it comes to a large scale issue. They sort of buckle and crumble and don't know their left hand from their right.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:27 AM
link   
reply to post by macman
 


In all honesty, that is the one element of a societal break-down scenario I fear most; rogue commandos with excellent training and propensity to engage and kill targets. The only things even remotely as bothersome are the violent cartels with unlimited supplies, big numbers and ruthless efficiency.

Katrina was YEARS ago and this information was almost completely buried…successfully. I think you’re right that we can assume, based on the actions during and after Katrina, that the government will use this type of force without pause. The only unknown is how many operators they have to do this dirty work? Replicating this response on a national scale seems like a nearly impossible task.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by macman
 


In all honesty, that is the one element of a societal break-down scenario I fear most; rogue commandos with excellent training and propensity to engage and kill targets. The only things even remotely as bothersome are the violent cartels with unlimited supplies, big numbers and ruthless efficiency.

Katrina was YEARS ago and this information was almost completely buried…successfully. I think you’re right that we can assume, based on the actions during and after Katrina, that the government will use this type of force without pause. The only unknown is how many operators they have to do this dirty work? Replicating this response on a national scale seems like a nearly impossible task.


And not all of those highly trained military people will be on the side of the government either.

I'd imagine the best that any government force could do would be to secure isolated areas. Small isolated areas with any effectiveness. Beyond that they will not be able to maintain control. They simply will never have the numbers.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by Hopechest
Not saying it didn't happen like this but all I am seeing are secondary sources.

"I knew this guy" or "I had a talk with this guy"......any sort of official memos or anything to back these stories up or are we just relying on heresay.


I don't think any person or company is going to release a memo saying they were authorized to kill. While mine is a secondary source as you say, he is a good friend I have known for years. I was with him when he left and the day after he came back. He has done numerous extractions as well as protection on shipping vessels, he regularly trains LEO on sharp shooting as well as hand to hand combat in MS so I have no reason to doubt his word on what he saw and did there. He is not a braggart but he is good at what he does.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:34 AM
link   
reply to post by Hopechest
 


I will personally vouch for the guys there.

The SOF community is very close and tight lipped to outsiders. The info provided there, I have personally vetted and found all info is valid. But, do your own homework, as my statement of it being truthful is just a a guy on the internet.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by tetra50
It is quite easy to say that those "taken out" were bad people, or criminals.....quite easy. And I'm not so sure that should be accepted across the board for what went down--at all.

And that's all I feel comfortable saying at this point, as I live here. And survived what you speak of, but I will never be the same again, and there are many more like me, and many who died.....


"I" speak of? I didn't say much, I just quoted the link so people could take a read before clicking the link.

You were in New Orleans? I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like you've been through Hell...
My Sincere condolences.
edit on 15-4-2013 by swan001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by Vasa Croe

Originally posted by Hopechest
Not saying it didn't happen like this but all I am seeing are secondary sources.

"I knew this guy" or "I had a talk with this guy"......any sort of official memos or anything to back these stories up or are we just relying on heresay.


I don't think any person or company is going to release a memo saying they were authorized to kill. While mine is a secondary source as you say, he is a good friend I have known for years. I was with him when he left and the day after he came back. He has done numerous extractions as well as protection on shipping vessels, he regularly trains LEO on sharp shooting as well as hand to hand combat in MS so I have no reason to doubt his word on what he saw and did there. He is not a braggart but he is good at what he does.


Not doubting you whatsoever, I just never believe anything I see or read unless I can verify it through multiple sources. I do a lot of research for my university and its just something I need to do otherwise my work is not accepted.

I suppose that carries over even onto conspiracy forums.


No offense meant to you however.



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:38 AM
link   
reply to post by Vasa Croe
 



As far as I know from what he said there were no holds and it was basically considered a war-zone for contractors at the time. While it may not have been right, the folks they were protecting were not out looting and killing others which is exactly what was going on in most areas. A lot of the looters were heavily armed with rifles themselves and were actively entering homes and businesses looking for anyone and anything they could take and make money on.


That really does put it into perspective…if that was the case in every instance. But I think the bigger issue here is the lack of 14th amendment “due process.” What happens when they declare YOU the “bad guy” even though you did nothing wrong? We've all seen DHS’s growing list of ‘potential domestic terrorists’ which includes – people who own guns, NRA members, conservatives, military veterans, religious groups, etc; pretty much anybody that could disagree with this administration.

If we allow this to happen in some cases then TPTB will take liberty from anyone they deem “bad guys” which could be you and your family one day. This is the definition of a slippery slope!



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:41 AM
link   

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by Vasa Croe

Originally posted by Hopechest
Not saying it didn't happen like this but all I am seeing are secondary sources.

"I knew this guy" or "I had a talk with this guy"......any sort of official memos or anything to back these stories up or are we just relying on heresay.


I don't think any person or company is going to release a memo saying they were authorized to kill. While mine is a secondary source as you say, he is a good friend I have known for years. I was with him when he left and the day after he came back. He has done numerous extractions as well as protection on shipping vessels, he regularly trains LEO on sharp shooting as well as hand to hand combat in MS so I have no reason to doubt his word on what he saw and did there. He is not a braggart but he is good at what he does.


Not doubting you whatsoever, I just never believe anything I see or read unless I can verify it through multiple sources. I do a lot of research for my university and its just something I need to do otherwise my work is not accepted.

I suppose that carries over even onto conspiracy forums.


No offense meant to you however.


No offense taken.....I am the same way. I try to be unbiased until I see real evidence. In this case I just happen to be good friends with someone that went in and lived in MS for about 10 years myself, part of which was when Katrina hit. My area was completely without power for 2 weeks and we got lucky to find a generator for sale when we did. We did have some great cookouts during that time because everyone without a generator had to cook their food since they had no refrigeration. Nobody drove anywhere because of the gas shortage. My biggest problem was really the heat....could not escape it with AC.
edit on 4/15/13 by Vasa Croe because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by seabag
 


when you also look at some other incidents like WACO it paints a really scary pattern



posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by Hopechest

Well is that good news or bad news in your view. Obviously the government was beyond ineffective in their ability to control even one city so how are they going to control and entire nation?


I don't think they ever really can. People in major poulation areas like big cities would be easier to round up. There is only so many ways in and ways out to set up detainment checkpoints. I live out in Kisatchie national forest (central LA) and the people around here would definately be some of the last to go in some kind of round-up scenario. We know the terrain well, where all of the hiding spots are, all the roads, where all the critters go to eat/drink, where the lakes and rivers are and where they lead out to.



I'd say that Katrina represents the total lack of organization any government unit has when it comes to a large scale issue. They sort of buckle and crumble and don't know their left hand from their right.


I think it is funny how movies and TV always portray government entities as like a well oiled machine that is so smart and never ever breaks. In reality they are pretty incompetent at even the most trivial things. I used to work for them in the military, any soldier can attest to the dumb, idiotic fiascos that the government constantly employs.
edit on 15-4-2013 by Cancerwarrior because: (no reason given)



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