1) Bush tried to make a connection of Iraq to current WMDs, and even to a little bit of "al qaeda" for these reasons:

a) The American people don't care initially about what someone says is happening to someone else.

b) This means Bush saying "we have to get rid of Saddam because he's killing people just like Hitler" doesn't really move the American public.

This is how you justify the lies of GWB???? Hey ! Come on! Wake up!

"The end justify the means", if it is your kind of thought, you do not deserve to live in a democratical country.......

THIS WAR IS THE FIRST WAR OF HUMAN HISTORY WITHOUT ANY JUSTIFICATION!!!!

2) However, Bush whether he wanted to go in for those reasons or, the terrorism//WMDs reasons or whatever, the effects are the same:

a) We liberated a nation oppressed.

b) We stopped the senseless murder.

I don 't remember.....can you tell me which country put Saddam into power?.......which country sold the most weapons to Saddam?......and most particularly which country sold anthrax to saddam?........

which country have imposed an embargo on Iraq that lead Iraq to poverty and economic crisis during many years?....... And after that, you do not understand why iraqis hate so much the US?.......With the embargo, the US have oppressed the iraqis has much as Saddam did.....

The last but not the least :
Tell me, how do you call US policy in ME?
Me i call it neocolonialism!
Only in Syria there are no marines, actually in the ME......
Can it explain to you why arabs are going mad toward the occidentals? .....

Oh man ... yet MORE STUPIDITY.

I don't care what Bush had to say to wake up the stupid American public to get rid of Saddam, it worked and that is ONE case where I do agree with "the ends justifies the means".

"A white lie never hurt anybody."

Next...who put Saddam into power? SADDAM DID YOU DUMB TWIT.

He began his career trying to assassinate the president of Iraq.

He was given the death sentence, and while in jail became the propoganda minister or such for the Ba'ath party.

The Ba'ath party succeeded and got Saddam out and he took over from there.

The whole reason US gave weapons to both sides in the Iran/Iraq war, was so that one country did not take over the other.

If there was ONLY Iraq, or ONLY Iran, you would bet that either of those nations would have more vigorously invaded its neighbors.

Dumb twitts, go back to high school, you have a lot to learn about history. And what's more insulting?

That's all off the top of my head, GOD HELP YOU should I ever feel the need to actually look up sources to throw the book at you.

Oh but finally, you said "this is the first war in human history without justification."

Can you be any more stupid, please? Really are you trying to be ignorant?

"Just War" was not even invented until about the time of Rome, before then ALL wars had NO other reason but land.

The Vikings, I suppose their conquests had "justification" or the huns? Or the "Golden Horde" (If you even know what that is, which I seriously doubt you do).

I don't like to make a public specticle of someone but you really need to revise your thinking.

Something tells me you're a high school commy or such, who sits there in your government class thinking "everything would work right if we were all communists".

No correction, this is "finally".

And I'll be more polite this time, everyone diserves such, it enables the learning process.

Not once did America EVER oppress Iraq.

We gave them the absolute essentials so that they could live a good life, but not make a massive military build up.

What did Saddam do? He took those absolute essentials, and used them for Military purposes anyways.

He built tanks with the materials we gave him to build houses, he made weapons out of that which we gave for him to make cars.

He made chemicals out of what we gave him to use for farming.

He complained of not having enough equipment for desalinization plants.

Guess what...we gave him that equipment more then enough but do you know where it went?

Chlorine facilities...instead of using it to desalinate water for farming such as Saudi Arabia.

He made factories that produced Chlorine Gas, which is odd, since he had little industry that required it.

Saddam's smartest move, is his WMD programs were all producing industrial chemicals, but too bad his country had no where to use them.

That is a dead give away.

[Edited on 14-5-2003 by ELSFAW]

ELSFAW are u HKoT Freemason 5POF etc etc?
I donīt know why but i feel familiar your way to discredit people and type in ATS...
Just out of curiosirty are you?

I'm who now? I'm not "discrediting" anyone.

You discredit yourselves by posting such crap. Haven't you ever heard of opening a book and actually learning about that which you speak?

I mean god Vzh just sat there and told me that this was the "first time in human history that a war was fought without justification".

God...don't tell me I'm "discrediting" anyone.

Discrediting is the act of making someone's valid information useless by drawing peoples attention to the flaws of the person doing the informing.

I'm not devaluing any information, as you can see the information is all wrong.

Oh man ... yet MORE STUPIDITY

I am a woman....

And you did not convince me Elsfaw

How old are you?

I don't care if I convinced you or not "maddam" all that's on my mind is that the impressionable minds here are not fouled by your disease ridden thoughts.

Diseased because they are "wrong" mainly.

There isn't one thing you said that had any backing what-so-ever. And one thing was actually completely wrong, the "justified war" part.

Now as for your other comments, that's more opinion, I agree "End justifies the means" is a horrible way to go.

But I think in the way Bush used it it was justified.

I don't agree that the US was wrong in dealing arms with Iraq and Iran, it was necissary to maintain borders in the muslim world, which the last thing it needs is to lose one nation. This though is the least acceptable of the US actions, but still a trivial matter.

As for who put Saddam in power? He really put himself in power, no one else, maybe a few other Iraqi prominents who wanted to see the current president over thrown.

The US in no way kept him in power either. Though we kept Iraq from being taken over by Iran and vice-versa.

Now this might not be mentioned here...but the "we allowed them to suffer through embargos" is also a load of crap.

People, this is to everyone, you seriously need to EDUCATE Yourself, and realize that Saddam took all that was necissary for his people, and gave it to the Republican Gaurd and building his military machine.

The Embargos did nothing to hurt the people, it always was Saddam.

Originally posted by MorbidAngel2010

Cold Anger porque hechas las cosas en espanol?
sabes en espanol tambien?

Porque queria ver si el es puerto riqueņo como podia ser capaz de defender la posicion que defiende, especialemente si enseņia paginas de tribus respetables, sabias que no tiene NADA que ver con el continente encima de ellos....

George Bush is evil they say
America is corrupt they say
We ruin THIER lives they say
well, take you borderline fanatical viewpoints and form you own terrorist group, what the hell, everybody is doing it.

Now that's absurd right? Well that's how the majority of the people of this sight feel about your viewpoints.

COLD ANGER and EL what the hell ever free mason, etc

If you can't handle your points being ridiculed, then make your own sight and bash Americans on your own space, we are sick of your malignant points and your obfuscations, and we see through you.


_the wiz

Originally posted by Shining Wizard
George Bush is evil they say
America is corrupt they say
We ruin THIER lives they say
well, take you borderline fanatical viewpoints and form you own terrorist group, what the hell, everybody is doing it.

Now that's absurd right? Well that's how the majority of the people of this sight feel about your viewpoints.

COLD ANGER and EL what the hell ever free mason, etc

If you can't handle your points being ridiculed, then make your own sight and bash Americans on your own space, we are sick of your malignant points and your obfuscations, and we see through you.


_the wiz

And another ignorant that doesnīt read what i say, i do not bash americans, i blame everybody without rational thinking about this WHOLE SITUATION in the planet, specially to people that supports massacres in names of another massacress, makes them the same meat.
How many times did i say that i do not hate american citizens?
How many times did i say that i am against the elitists which are the real responsable people of all this suffering?
Millions, but it seems to be that U never saw any of those posts....
If u feel attacked or insulted say it, but please post statements with reasons and facts, otherwise means that the truth hurts...

[Edited on 14-5-2003 by CoLD aNGeR]

History as it is popularly understood Cold Anger often is not reflective of every detail, an example being the influence of the Vatican Assembly upon the Spanish Empire.

The results did make the Taino a very small tribe indeed (We were killed on site and it was not an honerable death).

You know very little about Western Hemispheric Indians Cold anger for instance did you know that according to our records of History Man has been on this planet for about a million years?

According to our history of the last 30,000 years do know when we record the first arrival of the Europeans or the Africans or the Orientals. Despite what you think is true as well as despite what your grades in school depended on saying the answer for me is much, much different.

Yes we are a very peaceful people but nearly wiping us out of existence tend to make people react to such issues as genocide. And the idea that 200,000 have been reported as missing in Iraq over the last ten
Years.

With taking into consideration the roughly 20,000 found to date in mass graves what is clear is that no only were these people were afraid of something (as expressed by me in the link you provided in this
thread). But as well that this situation should be treated no differently that the problem with the
Jews during WWII.

Cold anger when you ancestors where thought dead 10,000 years ago, they were placed on very well constructed boats and you what a percentage of them were not dead. When your culture came in mass, to our lands the ancestors of those who were not dead were integrated with them.

Have you ever wondered why certain Caucasians were allowed to live when placed in a position of facing an Indian Tribe? There is only one reason Cold Anger, they were descendants of those, who a rather long time ago arrived in those very well constructed boats.

Cold anger as much as you seem Alien to me my impression is I seem as Alien to you. Let us stop the hostility and consider our differences as one related to interpretation.

The Spanish under the authority of the Vatican Assembly did not kill thousands Cold Anger, they killed Millions. They also tried to wipe out all oddities specific to what developed in Indian culture prior to there arival ( you cannot even begin to imagine the value that these oddities had). By oddities I mean humans who were different in phisical ways.


[Edited on 15-5-2003 by Toltec]

Lets get one thing strait Cold Anger what was the last time the Guardian or the Observer won a Pulitzer prize for anything they reported?

With regards to the Washington Post there is an article, which suggest that WMD was some thing the administration is not sure about. But that is well after the televised reports from senior
Administration officials stating beyond any shadow of doubt that they will find them.

Here is a conclusion if you knew that 200,000 people were missing in Holland and the primary conclusion was that the reason they were missing, was related to there political beliefs? And to make matters worst what if you were certain of the fact that if you were caused a general uprising as a result everyone you knew, would be killed by chemical weapons?

Would it cause you to stop and in which case is not that exactly what happened in Iraq?

Especially after the local press refused to report what was happening (Al Jezzera as well as any other arab press)????

"There was one more twist. Two days before the snatch squad arrived, Harith had arranged to deliver Jessica to the Americans in an ambulance.

But as the ambulance, with Private Lynch inside, approached a checkpoint American troops opened fire, forcing it to flee back to the hospital. The Americans had almost killed their prize catch. "

I bet that doesn't make it into the film.

The "Snatch Squad" sounds like an action porno flick....