I love Jesus. I'm a Jesus lover.

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36)"

Prince of peace

But yeah the few good things attributed to Jesus don't make up (nowhere close) for all the terrible and disgusting things he (because he is his own father and son, and that makes sense) said and did in the OT.

One thing all Christians can be accused of (and rightly so IMHO), is looking at the Bible and the world through rose-tinted glasses/headscarfs.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Mark 12:30-31 Jesus commanded ... Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. I don't remember any scripture quotes showing Jesus commanded murder or enslavement, etc etc ...

I don't either. What he preached was humanly impossible. Don't worry about food or clothing. Humans worry, it's what we do. Turn the other cheek, and let thieves and abusers have their way with you all the time. If someone steals your coat, give him your shirt too, so he can be warm when he comes back at night to steal your shoes. Love your neighbor, even though your neighbor wants to love your little children a bit too much. It's all crap.

Yes Jesus message was extreme and nobody can or would do it, but He wasnt talking to you, His message was for Christians. Its the ideal not the law.

If everyone lived like Christ taught would it be all crap then?
I think its better to be the victim than the perpetrator, whos conscience awakens.

You have just closed the door on Christ, Why? The message of Grace is for all men. God loves even the ones that don’t do what he says. We are all sinners, we all fall short, and we all need God’s Grace.

What you are saying is somehow you have exclusive ownership over the love of God and Christ. What you say leaves the unbeliever with a closed door. You have told a man that he doesn’t believe in the message because he is not a Christian. You say it as if the message is not for him. So you assume that God is only calling Christians to love one another but he thinks it ok that everyone else goes around being sinful?

God desires none to sin and for all to love. We are all God’s children, there is only one father, so we can conclude that the one father would think it best that all his children love each other. “Grace is simply the message that God loves you unconditionally”. The only catch you have to pursue love to feel love.

You don’t just wake up one day loving like Christ. There is just way too much to learn for it to be that easy. You may wake up one day with a changed heart, where your desire to pursue love becomes more like an overwhelming passion than a simple desire. However, you still won’t love like Christ day one, Paul said he did not think that he had achieved the goal so why would anyone think they have.

Your job as a Christian is not to condemn those that don’t believe the message but to love them. If you love them like Christ loved than surely they will stop saying it is impossible. If they see the love of Christ in you only then are they without excuse.

The only way to change the mind of an adamant non believer is to show him the love of Christ in you. In this way you have become the mechanism that makes following Christ possible. Because some need to see a miracle before they believe. Seeing the love of Christ in a man, for a non believer, is a miracle because they are witnessing what they believe to be impossible.

So although it is true that the unbeliever is not Christian, the way you point it out is judgmental and derogatory in nature. There is no reason for this; the father will judge all things. Jesus left us the command to love one another and to never do anything against love, including to our enemies/adversary.

Love the non believer into seeing that the love is real. You need to become the embodiment of Christ as you let the spirit of Christ/love live through you, where you become observer and the Holy Spirit becomes the pilot. In this way the argument against our ability to love like Christ becomes invalid. The one making the claim will see clearly a man who loves like Christ. How then we he be able to justify his claim that it is impossible.

As long as Christians are self-righteous and judgmental they are making the same mistake as the Pharisees and Sadducees of old. Christians for the most part believe that they have obtained a righteousness through their religion.

Righteousness cannot be obtained through the law or through any religion.

Righteousness can only be obtained through love. Love is the only righteous act. Since God is always righteous we know that he always loves us. Maybe this is hard to believe based on everything we see but the fact that “WE ARE’ should be enough to understand “WE ARE LOVED”. Why give us the mind and heart to love, but then have us fall short of the righteousness of love unless it is the way God chooses to make man righteous?

This is why it is so important that we believe the message “love one another” the burden is light it is this simple.

Pursue religion and you will find religion. It is fair to say that religion causes seperation, judgement, hate and even leads to wars and murder?

Pursue love and you will find love.

reply to post by sacgamer25

It's a good point because many if not most or even all of us were in the same boat at one time, because faith comes by hearing.

For example I was once a militant atheist, as a teenager anyway (rebellious angst).

It's hard though not to react to the haters or the ignorant, and we also need to forgive our Christian brothers and sisters their errors as well.

"I have but one commandment. Love one another as I have loved you. By your love for one another they will know that you are my disciple."
~ Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.

It's not unreasonable, however unreasonably reasonable it may be (because it's a limitless boundless love! lol).

Originally posted by Prezbo369

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36)"

Prince of peace

I think you took it out of context

31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

Luke 22:31-38

I'm not sure precisely what it means myself but I don't think it means what you've portrayed it as.

Luke 22:31-38.
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Here is what I think the passage means.

I think most who have read or understand the bible know that the word sword is often used as a synonym for the word of God. The word of God “LOVE” can cut through the spirit.

When he says if you don’t have a sword then sell your cloak to buy one.

If you don’t have the love of God sell your flesh for love so you may receive spiritual blessing. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is not merely the son of man he is the love of man. This is why we are to listen because he was the love of God in the form of a man.

2 Corinthians 5
5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Notice at the end when he says “That’s Enough!” I think he was agitated they still hadn’t figured out that they were to turn the other cheek. They would not understand this until after the crucifixion and resurrection. The resurrection gave them the power to submit themselves to God’s will despite subsequent persecution “Turn the other Cheek”. They already knew that they would be persecuted.

We sin because we pursue the desires of our flesh. We must put away the flesh, take off our coat, and buy a sword, the spirit of the Lord. Notice how Paul says while we are in the body we yearn to be clothed by God with the spirit of Love. So when we are “away from our body” worshiping in spirit “prayer, meditation, unity with Love”, we are “with the lord”, when we are in the body it is for the sake of our brothers. Because now that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit we no longer yearn for anything but the will of God. As we in body or in spirit are worshiping the Lord/Love/Christ.

Jesus faced every temptation we faced. He will come to us in spirit and end this cycle of duality of good/evil.

Through his life he was able to obtain all the wisdom needed to teach us how to overcome. He became sin, so that he could free us from sin. Meaning that he obtained all knowledge of sin so that he could teach us apart from us committing sin. For he had obtained the wisdom to understand what keeps us from loving one another.

Do you have your sword? Maybe it’s time to sell your cloak and put on love.

Love is the word of God that cuts through to the spirit.

Originally posted by sacgamer25


You have just closed the door on Christ, Why? The message of Grace is for all men. God loves even the ones that don’t do what he says. We are all sinners, we all fall short, and we all need God’s Grace.

What you are saying is somehow you have exclusive ownership over the love of God and Christ. What you say leaves the unbeliever with a closed door. You have told a man that he doesn’t believe in the message because he is not a Christian. You say it as if the message is not for him. So you assume that God is only calling Christians to love one another but he thinks it ok that everyone else goes around being sinful?

God desires none to sin and for all to love. We are all God’s children, there is only one father, so we can conclude that the one father would think it best that all his children love each other. “Grace is simply the message that God loves you


You don’t just wake up one day loving like Christ. There is just way too much to learn for it to be that easy. You may wake up one day with a changed heart, where your desire to pursue love becomes more like an overwhelming passion than a simple desire. However, you still won’t love like Christ day one, Paul said he did not think that he had achieved the goal so why would anyone think they have.

Your job as a Christian is not to condemn those that don’t believe the message but to love them. If you love them like Christ loved than surely they will stop saying it is impossible. If they see the love of Christ in you only then are they without excuse.

The only way to change the mind of an adamant non believer is to show him the love of Christ in you. In this way you have become the mechanism that makes following Christ possible. Because some need to see a miracle before they believe. Seeing the love of Christ in a man, for a non believer, is a miracle because they are witnessing what they believe to be impossible.

So although it is true that the unbeliever is not Christian, the way you point it out is judgmental and derogatory in nature. There is no reason for this; the father will judge all things. Jesus left us the command to love one another and to never do anything against love, including to our enemies/adversary.

Love the non believer into seeing that the love is real. You need to become the embodiment of Christ as you let the spirit of Christ/love live through you, where you become observer and the Holy Spirit becomes the pilot. In this way the argument against our ability to love like Christ becomes invalid. The one making the claim will see clearly a man who loves like Christ. How then we he be able to justify his claim that it is impossible.

As long as Christians are self-righteous and judgmental they are making the same mistake as the Pharisees and Sadducees of old. Christians for the most part believe that they have obtained a righteousness through their religion.

Righteousness cannot be obtained through the law or through any religion.

Righteousness can only be obtained through love. Love is the only righteous act. Since God is always righteous we know that he always loves us. Maybe this is hard to believe based on everything we see but the fact that “WE ARE’ should be enough to understand “WE ARE LOVED”. Why give us the mind and heart to love, but then have us fall short of the righteousness of love unless it is the way God chooses to make man righteous?

This is why it is so important that we believe the message “love one another” the burden is light it is this simple.

Pursue religion and you will find religion. It is fair to say that religion causes seperation, judgement, hate and even leads to wars and murder?

Pursue love and you will find love.

I cant lead a person to Christ, only the Spirit of God can do that, I cant close the door, only God can do that
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

I cant close the door, only God can do that, Ephesians is a good study. God has exclusive ownership, not me

Why are there two active laws, The OT law and its judgement and the law of grace through Jesus.
The road to salvation is extremely narrow. Gods Grace can lead a person to salvation, not my love

You made many claims but no scriptural support, please read Ephesians and consider what you are saying.

God hardens hearts and also frees them.
God is the author of salvation, not humanity. We are tools.

Jesus' two commandments of love are brilliant. Jesus was clearly a great and even practical Spiritual Master to his disciples and these two commandments reflected back to his followers their own egoity and failure to live the life of love fully. This teaches humility - to see that one is full of self by tendency is necessary for surrendering the whole body-mind to God.

The two commandments are also basically a great Zen koan in which they cannot be done fully until one is no longer separate from God and all. From the unenlightened standpoint, living the commandments are a goal to be reached - however, they are not even possible from the unenlightened standpoint. But from the standpoint of being enlightened, i.e., awakened to communion with God, the commandments are possible.

So Jesus is commanding that people practice love and when they are awakened to love-communion, then his commandments are fulfilled because awakening implies one is not separate from God and neighbor - i.e., love is realized to be the case. But until such love-communion with God, the commandments are an endless frustration to the person not surrendering to the Divine because he still thinks he can awaken himself through his own seeking and may even think he is doing his best to love God fully - rather than simply giving up his endless self-involved attempts and just surrendering utterly to God. Such seeking (self-involvement) is clearly not loving God fully. A beautiful and most effective koan to say the least!

Also, the commandments provide a moral teaching for Christians (and really, everyone) to adhere to because love is the spiritual law. When the commandments were adapted to enough by Jesus' disciples, the body-mind of the disciple would also be ready to deal with the sheer energy and force of communion with the Divine. The body-mind needs to learn selflessness (love) and be greatly prepared for handling the onslaught of Divine ecstasy above, and even in, the body-mind.

And finally, the real secret to living the commandments is to recognize in each and every moment that one is already not separate from God and neighbor - that all arise in a fundamental unity in which our non-separation is obvious, and real love is the force or energy of that very unity or communion with God. Jesus clearly taught and offered this gift of non-separation to all those who would receive it.

reply to post by borntowatch


I agree but we must always test everything we say against the Holy command to love one another. I was merely suggesting that you consider the way you say things as to not break this command.

To me what you wrote sounded as if you were assuming the man who did not believe was condemned. Since we cannot know the fate of any man what we say should not suggest that we do.

In this way we only teach and spread love and leave all judgment to the father, as Christ has commanded his followers.

I consider myself agnostic, I don't believe or disbelieve. But I love JC also. He was the best, everything about him was awesome. He challenged the entire establishment. His entire existence was an act of rebellion. All he did was love and teach forgiveness. I used to be anti-religion because I didn't separate the ridiculous and contradictory state of organized religion from personal belief.

But lately I've realized that there is a difference in having faith than giving your money to Rev. Peter Popoff for some miracle spring (Tap water). I've watched Zeitgeist, and have seen how closely Jesus and his story resembles past sun gods and the stars but I STILL love JC and don't completely discount the story.

You'll never see me "preaching the gospel" however I will say this, Jesus said "The most important thing, is to treat your neighbor, as you would want to be treated" Just try to live righteous. I don't feel guilty for natural inclinations. If the entire book is true and they are sins so be it, they are sins within my own soul and in my own heart and mind. But when I interact with my fellow man, I try to be a good person. I have no judgment and treat him the way I would want to be treated. That's the whole point.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Wikiquote - Jesus

Even though I am agnostic and irreligious, I believe Jesus was a good man, decent role model and an important historical figure.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


John the apostle was talking to Jesus about his goodness and asked: It's so hard to be good "All the Time" but you do it with ease, why is it hard for me? Jesus said: there is no difference between you and me, I only have a stronger will Power.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by borntowatch

 

I agree but we must always test everything we say against the Holy command to love one another. I was merely suggesting that you consider the way you say things as to not break this command.

To me what you wrote sounded as if you were assuming the man who did not believe was condemned. Since we cannot know the fate of any man what we say should not suggest that we do.

In this way we only teach and spread love and leave all judgment to the father, as Christ has commanded his followers.

He is condemned unless there is repentance.
Only God can lead him, not my love or even a good sales pitch

reply to post by bloodreviara

You don't have a clue about Jesus do you?
Read the Gospels before you make more silly observations like these.

Originally posted by MCL1150
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

John the apostle was talking to Jesus about his goodness and asked: It's so hard to be good "All the Time" but you do it with ease, why is it hard for me? Jesus said: there is no difference between you and me, I only have a stronger will Power.

What chapter and verse is that by the way?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That would be the gospel of MCL1150


One of those unreleased books...

I'm so glad you feel so positive about somebody, unfortunately you have fallen for a fictional character.

Don't worry too much, many people love Superman and Harry Potter, just don't blur the line between fiction and reality.

The stories of Jesus were put together by Emperor Constantine, maybe he put together some other books you'd like to.

I'm afraid Jesus isn't real and there is no such thing as God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The Poem of the Man~God by Maria Valtorta written in the 1940's Maria stated, this is the Gospel as it was revealed to me by Jesus.

Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion on its origin,
if it be extraordinary or not. Whoever reads it will understand."

— Pope Pius XII

www.bardstown.com...

reply to post by MCL1150


So it's neither the gospel or Scripture. Got it, thank you.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by bloodreviara
I am glad you can take all the good and ignore all the bad that jesus
encouraged, i have a hard time get past the brutal immoral things he
commands his followers to do in his and his fathers name, to stone,
murder, enslave and otherwise demean humanity by claiming morality
when there was none is not a good thing, i don't see how it ever could be.

To love a brutal dictator like being that cannot even equal current human
morality is a bit odd but many folks loved hitler and stalin and on and on.

One thing i would ask is that you please be more moral than the one you
worship was, then we can all love what we want freely and be happy.

Can you list those brutal immoral teachings Jesus taught please
or
are they just assumptions.

Its sad when people make comments based an assumptions.

I am a Jesus lover as well, I am always at His mercy.

God bless you

and Jesus didnt know everything....

I think bloodrev is assuming all Christians believe Jesus is God. If Jesus was God then yes, he did commit quite a few brutal and immoral acts by encouraging slavery, rape, and murder. See the Old Testament.