The story of Satan in Islamic tradition

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
IMO, this gives a background to the Biblical story of Satan misleading Adam / Eve into eating the fruit. Satan's plan was to mislead mankind, so it explains why Satan decided to deceive somebody just minding their own business, not posing a threat to him, or even being aware of him.

Interesting thread, I never knew Islam saw Jinns as Satan, always thought that Jinns were just viewed as evil spirits.

I’m curious though, in regards to your OP, what is the Islamic (or your own) perspective of Genesis 3, verses 14-15… specifically verse 15 in particular.

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

- JC

reply to post by logical7

Its interesting how you both chose to comment on Islam in general than the OP in specific.

It could be, if it was true. But my post, at least, was directly on topic.

In response to the OP's suggestion of parallels between the Biblical Satan and that of the Koran, I pointed out that Arabia was largely surrounded and influenced by the Christian world, but not part of it; thus the stories in the Bible would be known to many Arabs, but often in garbled form—which appears, from the accounts given in the Koran, to be how Muhammad knew them. I then gave a well-known example of how Christian ideas have been adopted into Islam, which the OP, doubtless for his own reasons, refused to accept.

So my post was on topic. Now, how about yours? What did the words you wrote have to do with the story of Satan in the Islamic tradition?

The ones who don't, are just looking for justification for superiority of their faith

I am an atheist. As I am sure you'll agree, only an atheist is rationally qualified to discuss religion.

*

reply to post by logical7

The Arabic Bible translates God(Elohim) as Allah, but according to your 'deep' research 'Allah' could be the chief idol!

No, I think it is perfectly natural that the Arabic Bible translates God as Allah. And it proves my point.

(Do) you equate unbiased scholarship only to anti islamic scholars?

I do not. As it happens, I've read quite of lot of Montgomery-Watt, who is probably the most sympathetic English-speaking Islamic scholar of the Western tradition.

Will any western scholar that agrees with Islam, be labelled as biased by you?

No. The point is that Western scholarship accepts no claims of supernatural authority. Even in the case of the Bible, it has not done so among academics since the nineteenth century at least. Islamic scholars, on the other hand, start from the assumption that the Koran is a document dictated by God. What objectivity can be hoped for after that?

Originally posted by eight bits
"Western" has nothing to do with the quality of scholarhip. I believe the poster meant "people who speak without fear of being branded on the nose for identifying antecedents of Koranic stories."

Precisely. Thank you very much.

reply to post by eight bits

Sheikh Scorpion, you mean? Have you read the OP? I have no idea whether Scorpie is qualified to teach Muslims or not. However, he says he is a Muslim, and I take him at his word.

I don't think Sk0rpie or me are Sheikhs, we are just average muslims. It would have been better if you elaborated or acknowledge/refuted Sk0rpie's post about what you meant by "character of iblis being central to Islam"

As it happens, I was aware that Islam
is a monotheistic religion. Since you
pretend this would be news to me,
and then call my ideas stupid, I'll end
our conversation here. Feel free to U2U
me when you're prepared to have a serious conversation without cheap
shots and name calling.

my 'stupid comment' was directed at anyone who assumes "Islam is from the devil" i had no intention to direct it at you. I apologise if you don't believe that, i don't mind if you think Muhammad pbuh invented it, its your opinion. I'l be happy to discuss with you if we both agree to show sincerity.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ollncasino
The problem with the Satanic verses, for Muslims, is that if Muhammad was fooled by verses from the devil pretending to be messages from Allah, how many verses in the Koran could perhaps not be from Allah but rather from the devil?

Considering how many verses in the Qu'ran contradict first hand Sacred Scripture it could be that a whole lot were not from God but rather from the devil! Either that, or Muhammad just transposed them very, very poorly from the original sources. Or he did the poor transposing on purpose to fit an agenda - which would have been an evil act and inspired by the devil. Or perhaps it was a bit of all three of those. Who knows ...

Maybe you'l like to know what the people who had actually studied the Qur'an think.
askaquestionto.us/article/revealedbook/statements-from-western-thinkers-about-quran

Corselle (An Intellectual – translated the Qur’an)
"The Qur’an is the most perfect and excellent work of the Arabic. This miraculous work cannot be introduced by mankind. The Qur’an itself is an enduring miracle and such a miracle that it is more supreme than resurrecting dead bodies. "This holy book itself is enough to prove that it is originally heavenly. Enlightening the Arabian bare and barren deserts, and defying poets and preachers, the Qur’an insisted for an equivalent of a verse of the Quran but there has been no one paying in kind."

Goethe (a German Litterateur)
"That is a book that’s been attracting, marvelling and amazing us to kneel in front lately within a short period of time. The Qur’an’s style is such strong, supreme and magnificent in accordance with its content and purpose. This book will remain as the most influent book for eras."

Mr John Davenport (An Author – A Thinker)
"Especially two of the Qur’an’s numerous traits are extremely important: The loftiness of the harmony in the Qur’an’s verses expressing Allah (swt) who is the owner of the omnipotence and the greatness. The Qur’an Al- Kareem is totally far from attributing human weakness to Allah. From the beginning to the end the Qur’an is totally unfettered from ideas, sentences and stories that are non- eloquent, non-ethics or opposite to good manners. However there are many of all these flaws in the Bible that is in the hand of Christian world and has been falsified."

Edward Gibbon (a British Historian and Educator)
"The Qur’an is the strongest evidence of the oneness of Allah (swt). Having a philosophical encephalon and faith to the oneness of Allah, one will show no hesitation to accept a point that Islam gives into consideration. Islam is maybe a religion much more supreme than we think today."

Thomas Carlyle (A Famous British Thinker)
"Once you read the Qur’an carefully, you’ll realize its emerging unique features. The Qur’an’s own beauty is totally distinguished from other literary works, is unique. One of distinguishing features of the Qur’an is that It has not been falsified. In my opinion and conclusion, the Qur’an is full of truth and sincerity from
the beginning to the end. The Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) invitation to the world is truth."

you should read it and maybe then your opinions wouldn't be so ignorant.

reply to post by Astyanax

Now, how about yours? What did the words you wrote have to do with the story of Satan in the Islamic tradition?

my response was an attempt to discourage any future posters from drifting and trolling but as i said, if they do, they'l get their reply.

I am an atheist. As I am sure you'll
agree, only an atheist is rationally
qualified to discuss religion.

you mean comment and criticize every religion and waste his time? Ya then sure, its your time.

No, I think it is perfectly natural that
the Arabic Bible translates God as
Allah. And it proves my point.

No, it does not. Unless you prove that the word iblis only started to be used after greek contact. The arabs were very proud of their language and dint borrow words from outside(now its different due to globalisation)
arabs knew about iblis long before not just when Qur'an got revealed.

Islamic scholars, on the other hand, start from the
assumption that the Koran is a
document dictated by God. What
objectivity can be hoped for after that?

that same document asks the believers to speak the truth and they would be accountable.

Can i expect the same reliability from western scholars? How do i know that they havent sold their soul like the MSM?
I am not saying scholars can't be honest, i am just showing that both sides can have hidden motives. What a western scholar says does not become true just because he/she is not a muslim.
How about christian scholar criticizing Islam? Wouldnt he be biased against Islam?
So in conclusion you may never know so better do one's own research. Right?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


As the God of Abraham says that we are all responsible for our own actions and thoughts,...

It appears that Satan/Shaytan/Iblis is nothing more than an archetype of Mind

Originally posted by logical7

"The Qur’an is the most perfect and excellent work of the Arabic.

.... got to the first line of your info and couldn't stop laughing ...

you should read it and maybe then your opinions wouldn't be so ignorant.

I'm posting facts and they aren't ignorant. Maybe you should accept the truth .. that the Qu'ran is just 'borrowed' from the other religions and very poorly transcribed. Then YOUR opinions wouldn't be so ignorant.

reply to post by logical7

my response was an attempt to discourage any future posters from drifting and trolling but as i said, if they do, they'l get their reply.

But my post wasn't off topic, as I showed. You just didn't get the connection. By the way, I don't see the word 'moderator' in the left margin next to your screen name.

you mean comment and criticize every religion and waste his time?

I'm interested in religion, because I'm interested in people, and religion influences people's thoughts and actions. A religious person obviously cannot take a position of scientific objectivity when it comes to his own faith—or, if he is devout enough, to any other faith either. That is why I say only atheists can discuss religion rationally. Though I will make an exception for scholarly believers with strongly compartmentalised minds, if any turn up on this thread.

Unless you prove that the word iblis only started to be used after greek contact. The arabs were very proud of their language and dint borrow words from outside (now its different due to globalisation)

Since pre-Islamic Arabic inscriptions only date from the fourth century AD, and Classical Arabic only from the sixth, while the Greeks were in contact with Arabia from prehistoric times, I doubt it would be possible to prove the opposite. The Arabs' pride in their language is well known and doubtless commendable, but to imagine that any language is self-sufficient is naive indeed. All Indo-European languages descend from a common ancestor, and they have all lent words to one another.

that same document asks the believers to speak the truth and they would be accountable.

What if the the supposedly divine origin of parts of the Koran were strongly falsified by scholarship? Much of what the Bible says has been disproved in this way—sayings attributed to Jesus, for example, have been shown to derive from other textual sources. What if it were shown that, during Abu Bakr's compilation, verses had been added to the text that were never spoken by Muhammad? Could such a truth be told by Muslim scholars? The scandal of the 'Satanic verses', which dates back to the Prophet's lifetime yet has retained enough power to cause a man to be condemned to death for blasphemy in our own times strongly suggests that it could not.

How about christian scholar criticizing Islam? Wouldnt he be biased against Islam?

Why should he—or she? Are you assuming that the scholar, being Western, must be automatically prejudiced? I mentioned W. Montgomery-Watt earlier; and surely you must have heard of a man named T.E. Lawrence? Scholars in the West tend to gravitate toward subjects that have a natural attraction for them—you can hardly expect someone to spend a lifetime studying a subject or a people or a religion he hates.

You may be thinking of right-wing evangelical Christian commentators on the internet, the creeps who offer hate-filled interpretations of Islam and the Koran. They are not scholars in any sense except that of the intellectually crippled form of bibliolatory they call 'Bible study'. They're cherry-pickers, cranks, addlepated anger addicts. They are not the people I am talking about when I refer to 'Western scholars'.

In that video they made some mistake.
First saying that jinn seems only inhabit the earth not true, as in other ayat, it mention that when the prophet come, all djin that live near by earth must come and listen.

And to make their argumen stronger, they change the ayat, from al baqarah:30
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
Add word again after blood sheds etc and make the meaning far from original.

As far as i know there is no strong hadith or ayat regarding that iblees is the highest worshipers. Allah know what inside the deepest thinking even, surely Allah know the quality of iblees.

And another ayat from 38:79
He said, "My Lord, then reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."
or from 7:14
[Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."
become give me life until the day of resurrection. The meaning will change alot. Some scholar think that iblees already dead when he said that. This will connected with another ayat, but i forgot which one, basically about someone after they die but dont want to wait in kubr and punished. They will go to a wood branch or stone etc.
Another clue in here is ressurected, that mean they already deceased.

To make it short, iblees or iblis is a name of a jinn that close enough with God, but dissobey God when asked to prostrate to adam.
Syaitan or satan is a group, a cursed, can be of human or jinn. Have the same pray with iblees to reprieve them until the day they ressurected.

Cuz of the nature that God will forgive everyone until he/her last breath, that make only deceased human or jinn can become a syaitan with the right pray.

Jinn commonly pictured as bad, but they are exactly just like human, with many variety believe and moral value.
Some are strong, some not, but human can be stronger than jinn even we have shorter life span. In the story from Quran about solomon want to move queen Bilqis. An ifrit jinn offer to move bilqis's throne before solomon stand, but someone ( a human )offer to move it even before solomon can close is eyes or blink.

Assalmu aleykum

The story of Satan in Islamic tradition

1- How do you glue Qur'an to your definition of tradition ?

قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَى وَمَن يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَّزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ

say: i do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, we give him more of good therein; surely allah is forgiving, grateful

2-So, who said to burn the house of only daughter of Muhammad PBUH ?

Wasn't this done by the same people who said "The book of Allah is adequate for us" ?

Was it Satan which told them or ...?

How do you add 12th Imam with tradition of those people who were doing as they wished ?

How do you explain that the tradition of Caliphates made us be the place which we are today? How is it going to make things any better ?



About the translation

1-Is satan the Iblis ? Who was he ?

2- Dinosaurs lived before Adam , it maybe dinosaurs that Angels are pointing as corrupter ?

3- Why does satan gets jealous of new being ?

4- Was satan comparing the right way ? Maybe fire is higher than clay , why was he wrong ?

As a muslims , I suggest you do more comprehensive study , then starting the thread that many members are going to rely as a reliable Islamic source.

peace.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I'm posting facts and they aren't ignorant. Maybe you should accept the truth .. that the Qu'ran is just 'borrowed' from the other religions and very poorly transcribed. Then YOUR opinions wouldn't be so ignorant.

i see how you refuse to study Qur'an, i read Bible and like it. Are you afraid of hearing the Qur'an?
I'l ask you this, if you are flexible and open minded then listen to this Surah and give me your feedback.

I'll try to extrapolate a bit on this subject.

The dinosaurs who evolved could have became those Jinns, who could have lived on earth or outside of it to leave earth as a natural reserves. Then this other race came, the Angels, and felt that Jinns we're quite devious and corrupted and tried to change this, by force, who knows.

This Jinn named Iblis found that the Angels had a good idea and decided to join them, in a sense, he repented and changed his ways. He must have felt that if he, as a Jinn, was able to join God with his Angels that the rest of his race could eventually see this path.

Now, God and the Angels created a new race, out of clay...which brings me to the use of clay in the first place. Clay is very easy to work with and mold to our will. Humans weren't really made of clay, they we're made with matter that is easily manipulated, which could be DNA or even 3rd dimension matter.

Iblis wouldn't bow down to God's new creation, knowing that this new creature wasn't superior to his race, that the Angels seemed to have given up on the Jinns and also, that this new race would live on earth, the place that was conquered from the Jinns.

After being excluded from the Angels, he swore to God that he would corrupt humanity to prove that humans aren't less corruptible than his own race, the Jinns.

So Jinns could very well be reptilians and Angels be another race, probably mammalian since God created us in his image.

I hope you enjoyed my extravagant connecting of dots.

reply to post by Astyanax


I don't see a reason to argue with you, i agree with the things in which you are reasonable and i don't think its productive to debate on parts whose clear knowledge is neither with me nor you and its all 'maybe', 'likely' etc.
If you have any concrete idea to discuss then do let me know.
I don't have to be a moderator to wish keeping the thread from derailing. Yes you started on topic but did not stay on it only.

Anyways do bring a genuine concrete disagreement about the OP and we can continue.

reply to post by mideast


Walekum Assalam wa Rehmatullah.
Mideast i did not get your points. What are you trying to say? Anything wrong in the idea of iblis in the OP?

reply to post by Joecroft

I’m curious though, in regards to your OP, what is the Islamic (or your own) perspective of Genesis 3, verses 14-15… specifically verse 15 in particular.

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

(Allâh) said: "Get down, one of you an enemy to the other [i.e. Adam, Hawwa (Eve), and Shaitân (Satan), etc.]. On earth will be a dwellingplace for you and an enjoyment, - for a time." (Al-A'raf 7:24)

Then We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you be distressed in misery. (Ta-Ha 20:117)
(Allâh) said:"Get you down (from the Paradise to the earth), both of you, together, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then if there comes to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery. (Ta-Ha 20:123)

the idea of man crushing the head of the serpent is not in Qur'an.
However the return of Jesus pbuh and he establishing and ruling the kingdom is awaited by muslims too. He will rule for 40 years during which he'l live a married life and then die. There is an empty place next to the grave of Muhammad pbuh reserved for him.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by mideast

 

Walekum Assalam wa Rehmatullah.
Mideast i did not get your points. What are you trying to say? Anything wrong in the idea of iblis in the OP?

In one sentence..

Discussing and teaching Qur'an requires studying more and going a little further into details to make the story understandable for the reader.

There is merely a connection between Qur'an and tradition of the caliphates.

Islam feels every little wholes within the logic.

And the fundamental question is "why are we here if we claim to be going the right path?"

Today was the day that Fatima salvatullah alayha died . Why did she die ? Who killed her ? Why did she lose her baby ? Why her tomb is hidden ? What did she do to her killers ? What did we do to love and like Qurba ? How is Islam without Mavaddat and Welayat going to rescue us ? How do we know that we won't disobey 12th Imam as people disobeyed Muhammad PBUH?

Islam is surrounding the truth and orders us to follow it , not to hide it whenever it is not in the line with our desires.

reply to post by mideast


I can understand your disagreements with the Caliphs as we both have different ideas that started as a political divide after death of prophet Muhammad pbuh.

To overcome that, we should support whoever is right and not show favour to our own group or ideas especially if they do wrong or anything against the Qur'anic teachings.
Allah should be on our mind and not any past hatred or blind loyalty to any group.
The later caliphs after Ali(r.a) were nothing more than kings and did many wrongs.
Allah had decreed it that way and its the past and nobody will be spared on Judgement day.

reply to post by Astyanax


Muslims do believe that all religions are the same as Qur'an claims.

But I think you don't want to be a christian because the same thing can be said about Christianity.

It can be said that Christians received the same facts from Jews and invented a new religion. While Islam doesn't reject Christianity , you are just making a delusional path to reject both Christianity and Islam.

So , as a Christian , you are doing what exactly Jews did to Christ. They rejected him.

And regarding all these points , you seem to be escaping from the truth as a Christian and you rather prefer to put a label on yourself and say "my religion is original , Jews are fake , Muslims are fake".

But trust me , choosing labels won't help you. Truth will help that you are escaping from.

+ There are many stories and facts in Qur'an which are not mentioned in both old and new testaments. But I really doubt you believe in them , because you have already made a huge doubt about any Abrahamic religions.

+ And supposing the fact that I come with these matters that are not discussed in testaments , you won't accept because you don't have a source to compare them to.

So , as I have understood , you just want to bash Islam and prove you are right. But you really doubt that.

+ I am 100% sure that you couldn't understand what I am talking about or you should say "I don't have the reliable source to compare Islam to"

I am an atheist. As I am sure you'll agree, only an atheist is rationally qualified to discuss religion.

I really doubt that you can discuss anything , because you don't have a start point. You just believe your eyes that are different than my eyes. So , our eyes are different and we see things differently and we have no proof that we can see the same things. So we have different facts , we can not discuss.

No. The point is that Western scholarship accepts no claims of supernatural authority. Even in the case of the Bible, it has not done so among academics since the nineteenth century at least. Islamic scholars, on the other hand, start from the assumption that the Koran is a document dictated by God. What objectivity can be hoped for after that?

Assuming you are atheist , why do you bother discussing between religions ? Haven't you choose not to believe ?

Islam have many sects and each sect believe in it's own interpretation of Qur'an. So , practically , Islam many qur'ans to refer to. But not all interpretation are according to Qur'an itself.

It is not easy for high educated to explain Qur'an accordingly , but atheists can comment as they wish.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by mideast

 

I can understand your disagreements with the Caliphs as we both have different ideas that started as a political divide after death of prophet Muhammad pbuh.

To overcome that, we should support whoever is right and not show favour to our own group or ideas especially if they do wrong or anything against the Qur'anic teachings.
Allah should be on our mind and not any past hatred or blind loyalty to any group.
The later caliphs after Ali(r.a) were nothing more than kings and did many wrongs.
Allah had decreed it that way and its the past and nobody will be spared on Judgement day.

So where is the lesson to learn ?

Have you ever studied about the time of Muhammad PBUH? Do you remember where we were ?

Why are we here ?How can we be like those Muslims again ?

Maazallah, Allah wanted this to happen Or our fathers brought this to us ?

When should we start to accept the responsibility and make the change ?

Why did the caliphates leave the body of Muhammad PBUH and went to discuss the power ?

Did god leave us on our own after his death ? After all the wars which were imposed on Muslims ? Why are Muslims divided and oppressed all around the world? Why are they getting more divided each day ?

After Muhammad was prophet , Allah left us for our own ? After all the hardship that Muhajir and Ansar beard ?

IMO , Muslims should solve their old problems then start to teach others.

God won't give us any other treasure unless we learn what we did wrong and what we are missing and how to keep it.

Peace.

reply to post by mideast


I think you are emotional.

Do you think anyone can frustate Allah or His Plan?

Allah lets wrong happen to let the wrongdoers know what they had done so that they don't have any excuse or defense on Judgement day.

Nobody will be spared just because they praised the prophet and his family by their tongues and disobeyed the prophet by their actions.

Lets just do our part the best and leave the rest to Allah.