With Police in Schools, More Children in Court

Saw this yesterday in The New York Times, and it really got me thinking.

Now, I know that we have entered a period of charge-happy law enforcement and convicting judiciary (often for the most minor of "offenses"), but this article makes a good point of how typical adolescent behavior is being overly criminalized:

"the number of minor behavior problems that are referred to the police, pushing kids into the criminal system.”

As the article states, there is

a surge in criminal charges against children for misbehavior that many believe is better handled in the principal’s office.

Instead of there being disciple by school officials like it used to be, school officers and stepping up not to disciple, but to charge students.

Yet the most striking impact of school police officers so far, critics say, has been a surge in arrests or misdemeanor charges for essentially nonviolent behavior — including scuffles, truancy and cursing at teachers — that sends children into the criminal courts.

Nationwide, hundreds of thousands of students are arrested or given criminal citations at schools each year. A large share are sent to court for relatively minor offenses, with black and Hispanic students and those with disabilities disproportionately affected

De’Angelo Rollins, who was 12 and had just started at a Bryan middle school in 2010 when he and another boy scuffled and were given citations. After repeated court appearances, De’Angelo pleaded no contest, paid a fine of $69 and was sentenced to 20 hours of community service and four months’ probation. “They said this will stay on his record unless we go back when he is 17 and get it expunged,” said his mother, Marjorie Holmon.

12 years old. A fine and community service? This is ridiculous. How is a 12-year old child supposed to pay a fine? They don't. The parents do.

And one hand, we have these children being fined by the court for nonviolent behavior. How much money is being made from this? Why are children thrown into the court system and required to perform community service—and get a criminal record—for typical behavior that could best be handled by school disciple.

I will agree that some kids, repeat "offenders" of particularly troublesome (and violent) nature might need more than what the school can hand out.

However,

“Once the kids get involved in the court system, it’s a slippery slope downhill.”

Anyone who has ever been in the system—for any reason—knows how true that statement is. The line is so fine that if one were to practically breathe incorrectly one has "violated" some condition. Especially when children are concerned, the ability to effectively walk this line is very difficult—because they are children. Hence, many will likely stay in the system in some form or fashion.

There was a recent thread comparing schools and prison systems, and this confirms that this is a happening reality.

Is this a intentional covert practice to incorporate people into the prison state, to mold and adapt children into a state of obedience—either free automatons or servitudes who cannot escape the grasp of the system. Either way, there is the push to become dependent on the system, voluntarily or not.

Now, here's another issue:

The effectiveness of using police officers in schools to deter crime or the remote threat of armed intruders is unclear. The new N.R.A. report cites the example of a Mississippi assistant principal who in 1997 got a gun from his truck and disarmed a student who had killed two classmates, and another in California in which a school resource officer in 2001 wounded and arrested a student who had opened fire with a shotgun.

“There is no evidence that placing officers in the schools improves safety,” said Denise C. Gottfredson, a criminologist at the University of Maryland who is an expert in school violence.

So, WHY the push to have armed officers in the school.

Is the "OMG protect the children!" crowd really that vocal and powerful? Are children the scapegoats or the pawns to usher in this state dependency?

Is it actually the intention to keep these people dependent on the state/caught in the system?

Some very old writings said something to the effect, "spare the rod spoil the child". The seeds of social disorder were sown many years ago IMO...

When I was in school the 4 foot long paddle with holes drilled in it was a constant reminder that those who insist on being disruptive will receive there just reward.

I had a coach who was a big big fellow that taught algebra (I hated algebra) But the first day of class he laid down the rules while holding a 4 foot long club with the obligatory holes; as you can imagine it was one of the hardest working class rooms (probably) in our whole school. On the other-hand our sociology class was a disaster even though the teacher was super smart and a funny kind of guy.

If people (students are people to) feel there are no consequences for their actions (never realized or taught starting at the home) then they will push the boundaries of what is acceptable if for no other reason than to get attention.

Was there room for abuse under the old system of discipline, yes...was it a better system that we have today? I think so....... But most old people have always thought their society was going to hell in a hand basket..... unfortunately I am old, so figure that in the equation.

OP this thread you posted is the logical outcome of failed policies on so many levels.. not to mention there is money to be made by the system....go figure. S&F

reply to post by 727Sky

Some very old writings said something to the effect, "spare the rod spoil the child". The seeds of social disorder were sown many years ago IMO...

Because hitting someone makes them a better person. Great logic.

When I was in school the 4 foot long paddle with holes drilled in it was a constant reminder that those who insist on being disruptive will receive there just reward.

Having a stranger hit your kid is quite weird.

Having a teacher teach your kid violence is even more so.

Anyway, where are tall the NRA groupies on ATS who thought cops at schools were a good idea?

It;s crazy.... the same type of people who scream about a police state, call for one at the same time.

I got tought a lesson in 4th grade for throwing peas at a sub.

3 hard paddles to the ass by the principle. I still remember seeing that hanging on his wall.

No phone calls to mom or dad.

Well lets not forget the many cases of abuse when schools were allowed to discipline. Its what led to a backlash from many parents about how it is the parents job to punish, not the schools.

I certainly wouldn't want some school employee doling out punishment to my kid.

As for police in school your going to have to give it time until enough data has been collected to determine whether or not violence, such as school shootings, have increased, decreased, or stayed the same.

Its only logical that with police in schools the administrators delegate punishments to the police. The cops are also probably bored out of their mind so are looking for anything to hold over the kids.

Since this is relatively a new policy you need to give it time for it to balance out, if there is a continued influx of children being sent to court for minor offenses than hopefully the judicial system starts putting a hold on that by not hearing these cases or just dismissing them until the police and schools get the hint that not all of these "crimes" are court worthy.

Basically its too early to make any judgements about whether or not police in schools are a good or bad thing.

Just my two cents...but the idea that spanking a child teaches them violence is so absurd in the modern age, I can't help but laugh out loud. Now we have, on occasion, spanked our child and I'll leave it at that. In Missouri, corporal punishment is still technically legal in the school house (Tho I can't recall the last I heard of it actually being done), let alone in one's own home.

However, through the games and particularly what passes for cartoons these days? My kid knew human anatomy following high speed traumatic injury and small unit combat tactics better than I'd be willing to bet my Father knew them as he arrived in Vietnam for his first tour in 1968. It's not teaching them violence, but it might, as a totally unintended side effect, teach them empathy and compassion by having at least experienced something of what kids today gleefully inflict on others for little or no reason.

I wonder how many of those kids running in little wolf packs and beating elderly men into the street, as one recent story described, actually had hard nose parents vs. wishy washy "friends"? (best friends ARE NOT parents. The two concepts are mutually exclusive, IMO. Now getting some to understand that? Bahhh)

Just my two cents as a teacher.

I think it comes down to liability issues and lawsuits. Parents threaten to sue over everything....which is where these zero tolerance policies originate.

I had a parent threaten to sue me before....because her son got hit by a child on a swing. The boy walked to close to the swings and was hit. A pure accident, the boy had a bruise but was back to playing after a couple of hugs.

That was several years ago. In today's climate, who knows? They might do away with swings on the playground.

Originally posted by WaterBottle
reply to post by 727Sky

 

Some very old writings said something to the effect, "spare the rod spoil the child". The seeds of social disorder were sown many years ago IMO...

Because hitting someone makes them a better person. Great logic.

When I was in school the 4 foot long paddle with holes drilled in it was a constant reminder that those who insist on being disruptive will receive there just reward.

Having a stranger hit your kid is quite weird.

Having a teacher teach your kid violence is even more so.

edit on 13-4-2013 by WaterBottle because: (no reason given)

Your kind of thinking is what has given us the great society we live in today with our kids being prescribed drugs to make them more controllable and acceptable in society and school settings.

Flash mobs attacking, stealing, beating or "hey there is some dude (or dudette) lets walk across the street and beat them just for the fun of it"..Crimes by children as young as 14 (or younger) make the headlines on to much of a regular basis IMO.

You happy? If you are then you got what you wanted with no end in sight..

In my wife's country the kids are very disciplined. They talk back they are corrected right there by either Mom or a close relative with a swift pop or an ear twisted until the error of their ways are realized. School disruptions are almost unheard of but the discipline starts before they evr attend first grade..... Different society and way of looking at things for sure. Furthermore,they do not seem to have the problems in their schools with disruptive children even though Pharmaceutical drugs are not used to control the little darlings..

Kids do something in school to cause problems and lose face for the family that is just the tip of the child's problems for Mom and Dad will see that stuff does not happen again...

People are people regardless of where they live and so are kids. America does not have a monopoly on what works for child rearing.

The United States has fallen to "average" in international education rankings released by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, according to the AFP.

America has received scores around 500 on a scale that goes up to 1,000: 487 in math, 500 in reading and 502 in science. according to the latest AFP report.

When I was growing up the U.S. was close to the top of any list that measured education. I doubt we as a nation were smarter just raised differently....We actually had winners and losers with more of a motto, "if you are not #1 you are not trying hard enough"..

Now, the last time I looked, America's education ranking was 13th, whereby Cuba and Canada are 5th and 6th respectively. So what is the answer?

Whatever it is, this ship is not heading towards "Answerland" with our present system of rewards for nothing and animals running lose upon the land with no self discipline.....I am so thankful my children are grown with kids of their own who all seem to be productive, happy human beings who do not leech off anyone but make there own way. Yes I am lucky along many others; however I doubt the lucky ones had your philosophy when rearing children. Time will tell which course is right....

Oh no, lets enslave the youth through the justice system and debt through schools. Good thinking people. Keep paying taxes.

Not only do those pernicious school cops throw an arrest record onto your children, they ask personal questions about family life, like if dad has a gun, if the parents fight, what drugs they are using, etc. And the idiot parents just call for more. It's hopeless. The country is headed for a police state, and all the idiots do is cheer it on.

And another incident: 7 Teenagers Arrested for End-Of-Year Water Balloon Prank

This is ridiculous, and getting completely out of hand.

A water-balloon prank that sends them to jail and one kid taken down to the ground?

At worse, they should maybe get detention, or some other school instituted punishment, NOT being arrested, charged, and thrown into the judicial system.

Water balloons are deadly weapons, I forgot.

When will we stand up against this nonsense?

They are preparing the next batch of inmates so the private prison industry keeps profiting, they are so sure that they will have an infinitive flow of bodies that they three major private prison corporations are already building new jails because the profits are growing.

This thread reminded me of some recent news:

Mark Ciavarella Jr: Judge Sentenced To 28 Years In Cash-For-Kids Scandal

Pennsylvania judge Mark Ciavarella Jr. was sentenced to 28 years in prison for a scandal in which he sent thousands of children to private prisons in return for a kickback. The judge in the “cash for kids” scandal, Ciavarella Jr., was tried and convicted of racketeering charges. Lawyers for the 61-year-old former judge had asked for a “reasonable” sentence, saying the judge had been punished already through his conviction and fall from grace.

reply to post by onequestion

reply to post by marg6043

reply to post by TXRabbit


As soon as i read your reply, Marg, I thought of what TXRabbit posted, the judge who was basically selling kids to prison.

And true, while there is certainly the for-profit prison industrial complex that is HUGE, I think it's also more about what i wrote in the OP: keeping people in the system, milking them as much as they can for money, keeping (or trying to make) people as obedient to the state as possible. They are starting younger and younger of conditioning these people to Obey, molding them like sheep (which is evident).

The locals jails here (not prisons, but city and county level) are bulging at the seams due to over crowding (and these are pretty rural counties), most of these people are, like prisons, in for nonviolent drug related charges, OR some type of probation violation, which brings me to another point: the probation companies are private companies contracted by the state, but employed by officers of the state. Now, going back to the point about keeping people in the system, once in the system/on probation there is a VERY fine line to walk. So fine, in fact, that it's very difficult to not cross it, what with both conditions and requirements of probation, such as completion programs (which require money), paying court fines AND probation costs, etc. Most of these people barely live month to month, and then once again thrown into the system to get milked, drained, and their lives keep going down.

And when they CAN'T pay their fines, because they have to eat and feed their kids, well, what happens?

Keeping people obedient, dependent, and caught in the web.

And this is what is happening to our kids, because the jail system does NOT reform. It makes people worse because of how one must adapt to survive in such a setting.

We need to stop this madness.

reply to post by smyleegrl


How old was the child? I am thinking that as the child was at school they should have known what would happen if you got too close to a swing and should have had the sense to stay away.

reply to post by smyleegrl


I think you might be very correct. In our society today, the convenience of filling a lawsuit in the hopes of easy money happens for too frequently.

This, with the the fact that school are "safe" places (with which I agree), seems to support that fact. "You let my child get hurt, I'm gonna sue," is certainly true.

But should the punishments be as severe as they are? Is an arrest & criminal charge going to change anything before or after the fact versus a school-based disciple, especially if there is a lawsuit involved?

For something overly violent, I can understand the former. But so many instances of purely childlike behavior being criminalized, how does the criminalization remedy anything?