Question for LEOs on ATS... damned if you do, damned if you don't

After debating in this thread here www.abovetopsecret.com... I have had a nail in my brain almost every night thinking about what to properly do in a home invasion situation.

I find it very unsettling that if I am awoken in the middle of the night by my door being kicked in... what am I supposed to do?

You hear time and time again about LEOs kicking down doors with/without warrants or with inaccurate information.

Police Pound on Wrong door and kill man

Police Kill former Marine Protecting his family

Police Kill man, intended for house next door

A home invasion is scary to think about, but if I am just an ordinary citizen, how am I supposed to react? It seems these stories are swept under the rug and the families are just given pay-outs. Does anyone else find this as unsettling as myself? The idea that it may or may not be LEOs and that they can justify shooting me in my home because of botched information and a shoot first ask questions later mentality?

This should be a concern for everyone. Gun owners and non-gun owners.

Call your local LEOs and go to your city councel meetings and express your concern with them and let them know that you do not support a shoot first style law enforcment. I have repeatably told my law enforcement that I believe they are there to protect the lifes of everyone, even the criminals, because our constitution says everyone deserves to be innocent until proven guilty. If there is no 100% proof of immenent danger ie. shots fired they cannot fire on anyone. Just my opinion.

More examples...

Police kill 18 year old in his apartment with no warrant

Police kill man after telling him "they dont need a warrant"

9 examples of botched police raids

All I can say in response this is what my family always taught me. "It's better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

reply to post by YayMayorBee


www.constitution.org...

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder
All I can say in response this is what my family always taught me. "It's better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

Yes, and I agree however, if it is LEOs who raid your home and you pull a weapon, you are most likely 99% of the time going to be carried out with two dozen holes in you.

Originally posted by RagnarDanniskjold
Call your local LEOs and go to your city councel meetings and express your concern with them and let them know that you do not support a shoot first style law enforcment. I have repeatably told my law enforcement that I believe they are there to protect the lifes of everyone, even the criminals, because our constitution says everyone deserves to be innocent until proven guilty. If there is no 100% proof of immenent danger ie. shots fired they cannot fire on anyone. Just my opinion.

I like that idea.

I thought that one law enforcement procedure was to raid the homes of suspects late at night, to catch the suspect sleeping and not awake enough to think clearly. I just don't like this. Can't LEO's wait until they see a suspect leave home alone and catch him out in the open? It just seems a lot safer for his family and for the people wrongly attacked at night.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by RagnarDanniskjold
Call your local LEOs and go to your city councel meetings and express your concern with them and let them know that you do not support a shoot first style law enforcment. I have repeatably told my law enforcement that I believe they are there to protect the lifes of everyone, even the criminals, because our constitution says everyone deserves to be innocent until proven guilty. If there is no 100% proof of immenent danger ie. shots fired they cannot fire on anyone. Just my opinion.

I like that idea.

I thought that one law enforcement procedure was to raid the homes of suspects late at night, to catch the suspect sleeping and not awake enough to think clearly. I just don't like this. Can't LEO's wait until they see a suspect leave home alone and catch him out in the open? It just seems a lot safer for his family and for the people wrongly attacked at night.

That is why I started this thread as a serious question to any LEOs on ATS. How do they feel? They are supposed to protect my rights... so are they ok with the idea of being shot by a citizen (assuming the citizen was within their rights ie no warrant) upon entering the wrong home (or even the correct home but maybe a roommate or spouse in fear for his or her life)

I have to admit, when I first read your thread, I thought you were talking about the astrological sign "Leo." So I clicked on it in the hopes that I would get to read about my fellow leos. Call me ignorant, but I really did think that!

In regards to your thread, cooperation is a good idea, but defending your family is extremely important. I think in that situation, I would try to talk to them to find out what the situation is, and if that didn't work, defend your family and your rights.

I try to be a peaceful person, so talking about it is my first option.

Yah that's a pretty weird situation.

All I know, is that if I hear my door kicked in in the middle of the night, and it isn't followed by shouts of "Police!", I'm pulling my .44 out of my nightstand and training it at my bedroom door. No one else lives at my house, so it's the police's responsibility to make sure they have the correct address and identify themselves properly.

Even then, if I broke into someones house and didn't wan't to get shot, I'd probably identify myself as the police.

reply to post by facelift


Good find. Pretty interesting and pertinent information.

Originally posted by danneu89
Yah that's a pretty weird situation.

All I know, is that if I hear my door kicked in in the middle of the night, and it isn't followed by shouts of "Police!", I'm pulling my .44 out of my nightstand and training it at my bedroom door. No one else lives at my house, so it's the police's responsibility to make sure they have the correct address and identify themselves properly.

Even then, if I broke into someones house and didn't wan't to get shot, I'd probably identify myself as the police.

I know I am being extreme and dramatic in playing devils advocate... but what about a true home invasion and the invaders shout "Police!" furthermore, I am pretty sure a high percentage (whom own night stand protection) of people who are awoken in the middle of the night by their door being kicked down are going to reach for said protection as a reaction...

I am still eagerly awaiting a response from someone in law enforcement.

Originally posted by facelift
reply to post by YayMayorBee

 

www.constitution.org...

Very awesome information... my question to this is, wouldnt it be in the best interest of Police officers to reform their tactics upon serving a warrant?

Yah, knowing I haven't done anything illegal enough to warrant my door being kicked in by LE, I would be hesitant to just stand down just because I heard someone shout Police.

If I heard police though I'd probably try to communicate to them that I was armed and not standing down until they slide a warrant under my door or something along those lines.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I thought that one law enforcement procedure was to raid the homes of suspects late at night, to catch the suspect sleeping and not awake enough to think clearly.

I am no LEO but having spent the majority of my 24 year military career in SF this is exactly why these raids are done late at night. Security and alertness of any potential threats is at it's weakest. The target (often the senior person present) is asleep and unable to direct any reaction.

Originally posted by jiggerjI just don't like this.

Unfortunately this is simply the best and most safe method for everyone involved - even for the target and especially for bystanders (family and kids). In the US the police still have to identify themselves when serving a no-knock warrant. Several States absolve the homeowner of any liability if a peace officer fails to properly identify himself when approaching in a threatening manner. I suppose a judge/jury would weigh heavily any evidence of overt police presence (uniforms marked POLICE, etc.) even in the absence of clear vocal identification and recognition. The homeowner would have to prove he/she was so disoriented as to be unable to react other than defensively...

I think it would be hard for someone to get away with shooting police in a raid that is if one survives at all...the police don't take kindly to people shooting thier mates.

I personally have been involved in raids on the wrong address downrange. One of which resulted in the death of a child. Thankfully, that was not my personal burden to bear as I was not the shooter; however, as the leader of the raid I feel responsible to this day. We went to the right place and my Sergeant was vindicated as the kid (12) did have an AK in hand. No one can really blame him either, we respectfully handled his corpse as IMO he was a true warrior even at his tender age willing to die to defend his family. They were completely innocent BTW of any wrong dooing other than being a place where a known Taliban bomb maker occasionally stayed. I doubt they even knew he made the IED's but I was not involved in the interrogations so I really don't know that.

What happened in this case was just bad intelligence - I am sure that somewhere up the chain a call was made with (IIRC an 80% certainty) that our target was on the premises. I am also sure someone paid career wise for making that call. It was way above my grade though. Incidentally, the family was related to the target and was paid the blood money (upwards of 50K IIRC) as is local custom. Won't get their son back though.

ETA: Ironically since they were related I bet a good portion of that 50K went right into bomb making suplies used against us...

I respect that the kid reacted as he did.

Originally posted by jiggerj
Can't LEO's wait until they see a suspect leave home alone and catch him out in the open? It just seems a lot safer for his family and for the people wrongly attacked at night.

No, because you lose control of the engagement. If you engage the target in a known "box" (the home) you limit the variables involved. Once loose the subject can do too many things and involve too many other innocents to justify the risk.

It is not an exact science it is an art - sometimes the intelligence is wrong, sometimes the operators (or in this case the police) simply go to the wrong place. Downrange this is easier as the houses are not marked with numbers or street names in most cases. I don't really see how the police in an American city could go to the wrong address other than when the address is mismarked on the warrant or bad information is obtained. Also, a key part of any raid is the pre-raid surveillance which should confirm the target with intelligence and operational control elements (leadership).

Personally, if someone busts in my door at night I will probably die if it is the police because I will likely react aggressively and defensively before I rationalize what is going on.

I don't suspect the law will ever have reason to do so in my case as the local Sheriff and I are friends...but I guess the feds could if I make enough lists.

Not a LEO but this question has come up over the years especially after some border homes were broken into by up to 4 dudes wearing police uniforms and body armor screaming "police police"!
The general consensus was you are basically screwed under those circumstances.
One way of protecting yourself is don't live in a high crime area, do not invite friends or relatives to your home that are known druggies and do not give the authorities any reason to think your place and you deserve the old kick in your door at 3am trick. If your dog is killed or a family member sue the hell out of them. In the mean time many have worked out and briefed family members on what to do if the door is kicked in or an intruder breaks in.

I live in Texas and many of the homes have armed individuals inside with a loaded firearm within arms reach. The LEOs and Swat teams tend to make themselves known to the inhabitants unless the house is in a high crime neighborhood....then they move fast to preclude evidence from going down the toilet. If it is a real Swat team and you reach for a firearm your body will be ventilated with numerous rounds of 223? and watched while you bleed to death.

If you want to go out in a blaze of glory then I don't know about the glory thing but for sure, your life will be forfeit if it is SWAT. If they are fake cops you might stand a chance if you have thought and planned ahead with regards to a safe room, who calls 911, and letting those who have broken into your castle know you are armed and will not hesitate to shoot etc etc.

The whole wrong house thing happens and innocent people are abused or killed( depending on the jurisdiction the event happens) as your examples show. It is sickening but on the other hand it really is rare. Look at all the people killed by lightning or tornadoes each year; those numbers are fairly consistent and predictable but most will never see a lightning strike or have to run from a tornado....

I like many, feel these events have increased since the use of SWAT teams to serve a warrant....Teams have been funded and trained even in some small one horse towns so they are darn sure gonna use them in certain situations even though it used to be a LEO and his partner knocking on the door during daylight..

Just some thoughts; hope it helps especially about the safe room and 911..If kids are involved and they have a separate bed room they get under the bed in-case shots are fired and stay there until mom or dad says "come out".

Originally posted by danneu89
Yah, knowing I haven't done anything illegal enough to warrant my door being kicked in by LE, I would be hesitant to just stand down just because I heard someone shout Police.

If I heard police though I'd probably try to communicate to them that I was armed and not standing down until they slide a warrant under my door or something along those lines.

Many of the examples I posted are of people whom did not have a warrant or any interest to the police but simply the wrong door.

In addition, I would NEVER openly admit to police before they entered my home that I have a weapon... sounds like a way to itch up those trigger fingers even more.

Originally posted by YayMayorBee


In addition, I would NEVER openly admit to police before they entered my home that I have a weapon... sounds like a way to itch up those trigger fingers even more.

That's a good point, but at least they might not just kick in my bedroom door scaring the crap out of me and forcing me to react.

I guess it really is a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

Originally posted by 727Sky


The whole wrong house thing happens and innocent people are abused or killed( depending on the jurisdiction the event happens) as your examples show. It is sickening but on the other hand it really is rare. Look at all the people killed by lightning or tornadoes each year; those numbers are fairly consistent and predictable but most will never see a lightning strike or have to run from a tornado....

edit on 12-4-2013 by 727Sky because: paragraph

The number of no-knock raids has increased from 3,000 in 1981 to more than 50,000 in 2005, according to Peter Kraska, a criminologist at Eastern Kentucky University in Richmond, Kentucky.[1] Raids that lead to deaths of innocent people are increasingly common;

More here No Knock Warrants

I would also like to express that I understand my thread is bias against LEOs and in light of that I would ask the same question because it has also happened on several occasions that police have been injured/killed upon entering a residence because as much as I speak out against the tactics of police, I still wish them no harm while doing their job.

Would it be in the best interest for the safety of the officers to only use no-knock raids under the most extreme circumstances?

Or is this really a case of wanting to use all those cool gadgets, toys, armor, and weapons?