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Effects of an EMP on our Infrastructure...

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posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by Weremom
 


Thanks, you are correct it is interesting.




posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by whywhynot
 


…The crane sizes are not sufficient,
Any place that has the appropriate lifting ability and clearance can be used for the tear down and reconstruction. The rewinding and core build up can be done at a different location if need be.

….the rewind equipment is too small.
Basic manual bobbin winding equipment is simple to build. Even from scratch. Variable dc drive motor operated by a foot peddle and a turns counter. It’s the automated winders that are hard to come by. Manually winding a large core is relatively simple, it just takes time.

I just got done rewinding and restacking a 150kw 3p dry transformer core on my own time, at my own place for a new application for my own use (current limited, welding). I did it with hand tools, and didn’t even use a turns counter. The core weighed over a half ton beforehand. It weighs around 600 pounds after I got done. I still have a stack of laminations and two of the old windings down in the barn. I am thinking of using the remaining core material and make a heavy gauge spot welder. A couple paralleled 400kcmil conductors for the welding leads, but that is another project for another time.

….But again, how do you repair transformers when there is no power for pumping fuel for trucks or emergency generators
I thought that was what the national guard and the military was for.


…..who is going to go get those blown transformers
Anyone with the appropriate equipment. Let the national guard make sure they have the fuel to run the equipment, and use that equipment to get the transformer moved. End of story.

…….how and where are you getting the replacement windings and insulation for this huge influx of repair?

Normally, when a transformer fails, the entire core stack isn’t toasted. There is just one or two points of failure. In normal times, you change the entire copper load to bring the core back to new specs. In an emergency situation, you can just isolate the failed part of the core and replace it. You may not even have to replace 1/10 the total copper load in the transformer.

And the enameled/formvar wire used in large transformers is just a fraction of the total yearly market. If you had an emergency situation, you have plenty enameled wire stocks to shift over to transformer use.

edit.........
Here is an article that goes into the basic core stacking methods for larger transformers
electrical-engineering-portal.com...
edit on 11-4-2013 by Mr Tranny because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by whywhynot
I can find no credible evidence that NK is capable of miniaturizing a nuclear device sized sufficiently to cause a wide EMP effect that could be placed on a rocket.

Does anyone have a link to in intel that suggests that they can?


Pentagon spy agency says North Korea can launch nuclear missile: officials



A Pentagon spy agency concluded with "moderate confidence" that North Korea has the ability to launch nuclear-armed ballistic missiles but the weapons would probably be unreliable, officials said on Thursday

A study dated last month by the Defense Intelligence Agency appeared to be the first time the Pentagon spy agency had reached such a conclusion and illustrated the high stakes surrounding the escalating tensions on the Korean peninsula.

The assessment's conclusion was made public by Representative Doug Lamborn as he questioned senior Pentagon officials about North Korea's nuclear weapons program during a hearing of the House of Representatives Armed Services Committee.

"DIA assesses with moderate confidence the North currently has nuclear weapons capable of delivery by ballistic missiles, however the reliability will be low," Lamborn said, quoting from a DIA report entitled "Dynamic Threat Assessment 8099: North Korea Nuclear Weapons Program (March 2013)."

A U.S. official said later that the quotation cited by Lamborn was in a section of the study that had been erroneously marked unclassified. The official said Lamborn had done nothing wrong in releasing the statement but declined further comment on the study.

Lamborn said the agency reached the conclusion in a mostly classified March 2013 report. He did not say what range the nuclear-capable North Korean missiles might have.


Our government knew - at least since March, that the NK has the ability to deliver a nuclear assault. Notice it says it was "erroneously marked unclassified". That means they did not want us to know. And this was just a section of the report. I wonder what was in the rest of the report?



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by BlueAjah
 


Great post, thanks



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Ok I think I just figured out our disagreement. In your example are talking a small dry transformer that weighs half a ton and the transformers at power plants weight 200 - 500 tons. These main transformer are transported on special rigs. You have heard of an 18 wheeler, these are 60 wheelers due to the weight with tractors three times the size of a normal one. You are talking about a 150 kw transformer and the transformers at a power plant is oil cooled 750,000 kw and more. As I had told you before I'm talking large transformers. If you had read the previous link you would have gotten the specs and the concern.

Oh, and the NG and Army will most likely pretty busy with civil and Homeland Security issues if the power is down remember New Orleans, good luck getting them to run down to your local power plant or switching yard and get a transformer that weighs 200 tons.

Look, you believe that it is a piece of cake if you want to. Each can make their own decision.
edit on 11-4-2013 by whywhynot because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 06:32 PM
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Having been following these threads with some interest all about EMP's, there are some things that should be stated:

The USA did tests back in the 1960's about EMP pulses, determining what is and is not effective, along with some interesting facts, the Soviet Union also did testing along those same lines, the following is the conclusion to those tests.

the initial testing does in the 1960's had the result of knocking out the electical system of Hawaii, about 898 miles away from the detonation, knocked out the telephone company microwave link. It also caused the Auroa to be seen further south than it has ever been seen.


The Soviet Test 184, done in 1962, was performed as a series of 3 tests over Kazakstan. While the weapons were smaller than the US test, caused more damage due to the position of the weapon and the distance, knocking out a powerplant, and the communications. The test demonstrated that what an EMP does is cause a power surge in the power lines. The fuses and repeaters in the communication lines were blown.


Subsequent testing and information came out that inorder for there to be greater damage over a larger range, is that they have to hit a small target in a very specific altitude to have the desired effect. So yes while they may be able to affect the majority of the USA, it would have to be closer to where the maganetic field is the strongest, and closer to the poles. However there is a problem as then it would affect more than just the USA, as it would hit other countries, such as Canada, and possibly Europe. After all do you think the NK would want to make an enemy of one of its neighbors, like say Russia that is on its northern border?

Or possibly cause problems for any country that it has a diplomatic mission with in Europe? Or say a Latin American country all in an attempt to take out the USA with a first strike? And that would not have a chance of causing other countries from deciding to join the USA in a retalitory strike against the NK?

Personally I think that if anything that NK is posturing and testing equipment, not ready to launch an actual attack without the support of either China or Russia or both behind it.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by sdcigarpig
 


You are absolutely correct, plus the EMP test also took out some satellites that were in low earth orbit over the following weeks.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by whywhynot
reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Do you think that the rebuild time for large transformers would be increased if suddenly the facility had 50 times the usual number to rebuild and they had no electricity to operate? Hmmmm



Why Not? whywhynot

Look... mobilization is mobilization... first months would be hard yeah... but come on, dudes will be working with guys with m16s behind them it wont be "business as usual" soldiers will be drafted to task...military engineers foreign aid enlisted parts from over seas would arrive within the week... You'd have Israelis and Japanese and South Koreans and Taiwanese lending a hand... British, french German... people would be fling in to help by the 10's of thousands...

The "Terror" scenario of this is WW3 in which those nations have ground battles or worse going on...

This is North fracking Korea.... the reality of this situation isn't WW3.... realistically, They'd have Russian and Chinese troops to contend with a week later their push into even SK would be very abrupt like... Under an hr abrupt as the first Nuke hits Pyongyang.... no one likes them

Deliveries and workers would be rapid and forth coming.... our nuke plants melting down is in NO ONES best interests lol...



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by whywhynot
 


Jesus H Christ!!!!!! (bangs head) I have worked on larger units with the help of powered equipment. I am well aware of the size difference.

The point is the process is the same, no mater what size it is. A transformer is a transformer. There is nothing special about a 300MVA transformer besides the size. With HV transformers, you have to design in the spacing and material choice to provide protection from insulation breakdown. But since we are rebuilding an existing design, that work has already been done for us. We just have to copy it. With wet transformers you have to worry about winding spacing and channels for oil flow, but again, it’s an existing unit, the design work is already done, we just have to copy it. Just the stuff to move it is larger. And the space needed to do the coil winding and core stacking is larger.

There is plenty of equipment to move such stuff in the USA, so all that is a non issue.

If someone dragged me off to a large industrial area tomorrow and had a big 400 ton transformer setting there, and said "It’s broken, fix it". As long as they provided the equipment necessary to move the parts (gantry crane… exec…), and extra manpower that will do what I tell them to, I would not go running in panic.
edit on 11-4-2013 by Mr Tranny because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 07:01 PM
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Has anyone ever thought the Pentagon WANTS this to happen?

They can't get the money for shnizzle from the Gov to upgrade and harden the system... if it happens woo hoo
The next gen nuke plants are pretty awesome and impregnable the grid needs a complete overhaul...

America has nearly accomplished this whole global government thing single handed...

Maybe it's just gentrification time... time to pull the boys back from overseas and let Russia and China mop up the rest of the third world rejects with us "out of the picture" for a time...

Pull back of troops... never happen politically but save a Trillion a year over a decade by a "disaster" and work on infra structure... short ride in historical scale to a revamped America.. especially if a lot of the "old guard" within the public get themselves killed...

Final changes to USA for NWO... revolution... or foreign EM strike in which we ASK for help from overseas....

It all feels Coordinated... '

Eve strikes on Japan and SK... what ethnic group is NOT represented well in the "Multicultural Global" version of the USA.... Asia.... a North Korean Nuke handing u a Few Million Japanese and South Korean refugees.... well it just seems to fit the agenda...

Just thinking out loud...

But to me it almost seems to make perfect sense...



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by whywhynot
reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Ok I think I just figured out our disagreement. In your example are talking a small dry transformer that weighs half a ton and the transformers at power plants weight 200 - 500 tons. These main transformer are transported on special rigs. You have heard of an 18 wheeler, these are 60 wheelers due to the weight with tractors three times the size of a normal one. You are talking about a 150 kw transformer and the transformers at a power plant is oil cooled 750,000 kw and more. As I had told you before I'm talking large transformers. If you had read the previous link you would have gotten the specs and the concern.

Oh, and the NG and Army will most likely pretty busy with civil and Homeland Security issues if the power is down remember New Orleans, good luck getting them to run down to your local power plant or switching yard and get a transformer that weighs 200 tons.


In a massive power outage, the priorities will be to assure
1) security
2) food
3) electrical repairs.

I would expect MP's and law enforcement to escort and commandeer whatever resources are necessary for utility scale power equipment repairs. It would be a very high priority.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 08:53 PM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Your not thinking Tranny and just being argumentative, I've told you twice, you think that it is a piece of cake fine. It is not and I hope that you don't find that out the hard way.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by mbkennel
 


Yes it will all be perfectly logical and ordered just like Katrina and Sandy. No problems just prioritize and perform. You bet that is history.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 09:34 PM
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Just another little something to think about, there are 104 nuclear reactors in the USA. In the event of a power outage each nuclear plant has an automatic shutdown procedure. If the plant has been operating when it shutdown the latent heat in the reactor needs to be shed. Normally the power to operate the cooling pumps comes from a back-feed from the main electrical lines leaving the plant. In the case of an EMP event that line will most likely be unavailable. Each site has back-up generators that kick in to operate the cooling water pumps in that event. They can only operate for a number of days before they run out of fuel. Out of 104 nuclear reactors the chances are that at least one or two (and perhaps many more) reactors will not have their emergency generators start due to the event. Can you say Fukushima.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by whywhynot
reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Your not thinking Tranny and just being argumentative, I've told you twice, you think that it is a piece of cake fine. It is not and I hope that you don't find that out the hard way.


I am not saying such stuff is simple, I am just saying that it is not impossible

You are the one that will not give up on the idea that quick repairs of such damage is impossible. And all the stuff you keep bringing up is relatively superficial problems. Equipment to move heavy items, lack of enameled wire, no power at rebuilding facilities, number of units to rebuild.

Heck, lets look at the moving problem again. There has been times where they have de-tanked the transformer right at the substation, for repairs. So moving isn’t even an issue in the first place if push comes to shove.

All those problems have simple answers that would be implemented if such a situation happened in the real world. The reason why I know those solutions would be implemented is because those solutions have always been standard operating procedure for the industry.

I have seen damaged transformers, I have affected repairs. Sometimes less that “spec” repairs. What passes for “acceptable” depends on the urgency of the situation. I know it can be done, no mater what the size.

It is just like you are trying to think of any excuse you can to declare that the country will cease to exist if specified attack happened.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 10:21 PM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


Reread your post mrtranny, you contradict yourself several times. Goodnight!



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


So we go to the days of the "Road Warrior". So be it let's get this show on the road so to say so Christ Jesus will come that much sooner.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 10:30 PM
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I'm with Mr Tranny

Remarkable times require remarkable measures... I think we'd survive, I don't think meltdown would end up an issue because internationally the world would come to our aid... it doesn't just affect us. Getting diesel fuel in isn't exactly impossible... or even hard unless the public panics...

Most of the worlds food comes from here... NK doing this is an attack on the planet, they wouldn't last until the following week if they did...



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 10:46 PM
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However, I was relieved a lot more than I was terrified, as I read the report. For example, check the section on cars and trucks. This isn't near as bad as I was expecting.


S&F

That is very interesting indeed. 50kv/m is a low dose isn't it?

I will have to study up, and try and figure out how much 50kv/m is and if that is low/high.

Thanks Gaz, there's some very good info in that doc.



posted on Apr, 11 2013 @ 11:22 PM
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Refrigeration trucks would be called in as temporary morgues too. Hospitals and Nursing Homes would be hardest hit imo.






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