Does the Music Industry Already Know Music Pirating Does Not Hurt Sales?

Here me out on this one. I was reading this thread here on ATS when I had a revelation!

The Internet Piracy Conspiracy

The thread discusses the recent EU study on this topic, which proves that music pirates actually spend 30% more on purchasing music legally than non-pirates. I'm sure we can all agree that the music industry is only interested in $$$, and that they have not changed their business to openly embrace online/streaming music themselves. All the while litigating to get people to stop.....it appears.

Here's where the conspiracy angle came to my mind. Keep in mind the following facts:

1. If you want to make something irresistible, then try to ban it, doesn't matter what that 'thing" is actually (books, porn, guns, etc..., music??)

2. When people are told they can't, or will soon not, have access to something, the buying spree is on, the shelves empty, the price of each item skyrockets on the resale/black-market.

3. It is therefore profitable to declare something off-limits, or to attempt top ban it.


It's been almost 20 years now that the music industry has been publicly 'fighting" this "scourge", yet, it has not stopped. They are making an additional 30% of sales now, atop the possibility of selling music on the pirate market at inflated prices. Perhaps they know about this connection?? Perhaps this was actually their plan all along?? So, by dragging out this pirating "fight" as long as possible in the public spotlight, while clandestinely being in on it as well (there have been proven cases of the industry itself leaking unreleased works), they are profiting more now than ever. But, they cannot let everyone know this, or this Ponzi scheme of theirs will fall apart. As for the MegaUpload fiasco, my guess is that Kim DotCom got too big for his shorts, and stopped funneling some secret protection $$$ to the industry....at which point the industry used their enormous influence in Washington to crush him under their boot.

Maybe it's late, and my mind is not thinking straight, but, these dots just aligned and connected for me....and I wanted to share this conspiracy angle with the ATS community, in case others have seen this pattern or have more input.

Or, my tin-foil hat is a bit too tight,

reply to post by Krakatoa


You are so wrong and my bank account is 100% proof

reply to post by Krakatoa


I think the RIAA tried to sue Limewire for Seventy some odd TRILLION dollars.

If that doesn't speak to the level of of egotistical narcissism, that these clowns live in day in and day out, well then I suppose you could believe anything.

~Tenth

I've been a professional musician for the last 20 years. In my experience, CD sales are virtually non-existent. Out of all the artists on the major labels, only a few are making a profit and all of the rest are running at a massive loss.

well, the price of a whole CD with only one half way decent song on it, two if you are very lucky...
now that's piracy

PS
ND, one reason is there are too many blood suckers in a process that these days are un-necessary
I can put together a complete 20 channel live recording PC with all the software and VSTs for a few hundred bucks CAD, you can do the artwork and production on the same machine

there is NO NEED for the high overhead

reply to post by Krakatoa


If I recall, it would be helpful to find out who developed the "legal" pirating software and notice how said company promoted it - hint, it is a company fighting pirating.

reply to post by NeuronDivide


Artists make money on digital music sales, concert tickets and merchandising royalties. If you are signed by a major label, you're making money.

Only the largest firms are really reporting losses.

The fact is that overall, the music industry is doing very well.

Source

The trend is most apparent in the music industry. While the “big four” record labels have seen their revenues plummet during the last decade, the music industry more broadly—encompassing independent labels, live performances, merchandise, music lessons, and the like—did extremely well.

Statistics from the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry indicates that the “broader music industry,” which included “revenues from music in radio advertising, recorded music sales, musical instrument sales, live performance revenues and portable digital music player sales (among a few other income categories)” grew from $132 billion to $168 billion.

Live music saw particularly dramatic growth. From 1999 to 2009, concert ticket sales in the US tripled from $1.5 billion to $4.6 billion, vastly exceeding the growth of inflation and population growth.

~Tenth

Originally posted by Danbones
well, the price of a whole CD with only one half way decent song on it, two if you are very lucky...
now that's piracy

That is one of the main reasons I stopped purchasing music. I refuse to pay the cost of an album of 10 songs for the "privilege" of having 2 I like. I don't D/L music either, I simply listen to the CD's I have, ripped to my mobile players and the radio.

I'm sure that also has an impact on lost sales, yet that is never brought up in the discussion. So, with this, they have to make money somehow, so why not fleece everyone under the table by being part of the problem they are railing against in public?

hey! Willy Nelson is playing in the local nearby little town in north ontario I am an hour away from!
only 270 bucks a ticket!

that'll pay for willies weed

reply to post by Krakatoa


problem, reaction, solution

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

Artists make money on digital music sales, concert tickets and merchandising royalties. If you are signed by a major label, you're making money.

Not really... While it's true that artists now have to tour and sell merch to make any money, once you give the manager+booking agent+promoters+publicist their cut and pay for flights+car hire+accom there's really nothing left over.

I believe they are convinced that stolen music = lost sales exactly, IE if they
can just stop music theft then all those people will go back to buying it
the old fashioned way, the irony here is that it will never happen, they really
missed their own bus on this stuffs, they had an option back in the late 90's,
adapt to the modern world or fight for it to stay the same, the problem with
the modern adaptation is that its less profit per sale but more volume, they
have this crazy idea that it should be the same profit per sale and even more
volume, as with many industries they think its prudent to keep a ton of middle
men when they could cut most of them out and do a much better job.

It is sad when your customers adapt your business model for you and
flat out show you what they want from you and its simply ignored or
met with open hostility, the world will always change, and if they refuse
to change it will go on without them, as evidence by the fact that even
10+ years of them fighting it tooth and nail, slow adaptation to new
formats and the alienation of their own customers has only led to them
being in the exact same spot as when it all started......

in this thread two thing are being conflated, the recording industry and the music industry.

the recording industry IS in decline, but the music industry is THRIVING. you can buy a single on Itunes for as little as .99 cents but to buy a CD it's 15 dollars and most CD's have 10 songs on it (see the problem??) to copy CD's take a bit of time and some electricity, the overhead is not that high anymore but the costs have remained the same over the years (think hookers and blow for recording execs, or Gold toilet seats and yachts)

Today ANYONE can record a song a put it on the internet, no longer are there gatekeepers that can tell you you aren't "good enough" Are Musicians making as much money as the pre internet yes and no, so it's about the same as before, but now it's up to the individual not some guy that says we can't "market" your song, nor does one have to go into debt to "labels"

Savvy musicians are actually making more money now then ever before because they get ALL the profit and don't have to share with the labels, the downside is your on your own, just like everyone else in the "real" world..

reply to post by Krakatoa

Does the Music Industry Already Know Music Pirating Does Not Hurt Sales?

It's not about piracy, it's about censoring free speech, and increasing surveillance of citizens via Orwellian-police-state means, through incremental introduction of these systems by way of legal precedent.


I.E. Letting the Camels nose into the tent.

A registered copyright owner of many songs and several books...I have only a single point to make. I and the group, and the arranger perhaps...get to split by percentage anywhere from $350 per quarter to as much as $5000 on another quarter, then the next? Maybe nothing. Next year? Maybe nothing. (we go thru trends in our music and are getting Internationally paid royalties)

I take neither side ( I can see both) but want to explain that out of all those sharing and not buying....I could be getting that income. (And no need to try and convince me sales are stimulated by sharing.) Simply...that which is not bought....could have been, and the money going to the registered copyright owner (s).

No discussion back and forth please....I have yet to see any contributor to any of these threads acknowledge to be a registered copyright owner.... Most opinions on this subject I see are made from those of you who are outside the industry, not in. I am, so Ive made my point.

I get no money...and certainly not more....when music is shared...and I couldve been receiving royalties.

reply to post by mysterioustranger


I too am an owner of multiple copyrights and patents. I "could" claim I "could" have earned $$ on someone copying my works (not selling). It's all hypothetical sales whether you wish to see it or not. And claiming, "no discussion" is a cop-out for lack of a real argument. That statement is made by folks that have already closed their mind off to differing opinions on the topic....and I ask you to please leave this discussion if that is your true feeling, since you can add nothing here anymore.

You cannot base a career on hypothetical sales, if you do, then you equally have a hypothetical career and should not expect any $$ to be made from it, should you?

Of course they do!!

I "pirated" music in the 80s and 90s with a cassette tape and and actual tape.

This whole "we are losing money" crap is insane. I don't see ONE single artist going hungry because someone downloaded their song without buying the entire crappy album.

This is just a way for them to get more money from people. It's pretty pathetic if you ask me. These artists charge insane amounts for concert tickets then live in luxury all the while complaining they are losing money because someone downloaded their music.

I remember limewire and I never really understood how it was illegal to share music you purchased with others. I had limewire and I also had it set up to where certain things were not shared like programs but my music was open for anyone to use. I paid for those songs why can't I share them? What would have been the difference in the 80s/90s when I used a blank tape and recorded it for a friend? No difference.

The music industry is greedy as all get out as is the entertainment industry. These people make more money than most of us will ever see in a life time. They can do whatever they want and go wherever they want yet they always complain about what they don't have! I have zero sympathy for these spoiled brats. Maybe they should look at how they live before they pick on us little people.

Originally posted by NeuronDivide

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

Artists make money on digital music sales, concert tickets and merchandising royalties. If you are signed by a major label, you're making money.

Not really... While it's true that artists now have to tour and sell merch to make any money, once you give the manager+booking agent+promoters+publicist their cut and pay for flights+car hire+accom there's really nothing left over.

Professional musician for 20 years? Then why haven't you been researching the business side of the music?

If someone is signed to a major label, and they live up to their end of the bargain, they're making money. Major labels do not keep someone that is NOT making money. It's pointless.

I digress for a moment to answer the question of the thread.

The music industry has not known all along that pirating does not hurt sales, because it did heavily in the beginning. It completely changed the way the music industry works. The music industry used to be able to consider the music a product as much as the licensing, concerts, merchandising, fundraisers, etc. But now the industry has learned that NO LONGER is it a good business model to consider the music itself a product.

Music is now the means by which we sell the products. If anyone is charging for people to listen to their music online; or if they are holding back, only allowing clips; they are a dead business, guaranteed. It doesn't work.

Trent Reznor started the business model, and proved, and many others have proved, and most recently Justin Timberlake (click here for the article), that by literally GIVING AWAY your music, for free, without any hindrance, that you produce more fans, you get a WHOLE lot more money, and even more, you can even license your music under Creative Commons Attributions and have your music spread legally, virally, and get people to perform remixes with attribution to you, garnering even more notoriety and interest.

If you sell "music" these days, you're a complete nutter. That's the bottom line.

Now the ones that are successful in the business do offer to ship you CDs for a small cost; it costs to make CDs you know. But nobody needs CDs and they aren't worried about it. You can download online, and they'll give it all to you for free. It's their way of saying, "Thanks for listening and loving. Music is love." (Business-wise, anyway.)

Now many ask; HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU MAKE MONEY WHEN YOU'RE GIVING THE MUSIC AWAY FOR FREE?! If that's true, then this is a business we should all be in!!

Well, you have to be really clever. You have to have a product to sell.

Your brand and your music sell your product. But if you don't have a product, then you ain't making money.

But why should I speak? Let's let the people in the know speak.

The video is a vimeo video, and I don't think I can embed that here. But I will provide a link to a page with the video embedded in it. The video is called "NARM 2009 STATE OF THE INDUSTRY: Michael Masnick". You will see it when you scroll down a little ways.

If you want to learn about how to make money in the music industry, this video is important for you.

Linkified

This is the license under which it is best to release your music:

CC BY-SA 3.0 US

There is whole lot more to it, really, but then again, it really is so simple.

Go to that "Linkified" and watch the video and you'll see.

The music industry is a monster, but there are those that are not monsters within it and that make decent livings without all of the manipulation and evil.

And Pirate Bay is an excellent way to get your music out there, and they are very transparent about that.

reply to post by mysterioustranger


I used to pave roads and the roads I paved are still in use today, Know what: I don't get to charge folks to use the roads over and over and over again.

you have been paid why are you complaining? because you are not getting paid for work you did a day/week/month/year ago?? Gee I don't either...........why are you "special"?


I take Photo's and write Poetry both of which can generate income but I don't base my life and what "May be" I only count the money I worked for today,the issue I have with royalty payments is, those folks that get them start to think they are "Royalty".

Originally posted by NeuronDivide
I've been a professional musician for the last 20 years. In my experience, CD sales are virtually non-existent. Out of all the artists on the major labels, only a few are making a profit and all of the rest are running at a massive loss.

edit on 10-4-2013 by NeuronDivide because: (no reason given)

You mean physical CD sales?

You must admit, in the last 10 years the demand for physical discs has decreased due to the increase in the availability of digital media that can be (legally) purchased and downloaded.

Most major label artists make a great deal of their money from touring and merchandise sales (and sometimes endorsements), and that's the way it's been for a while.

The nature of the music business has changed with the times. Record sales are just a small fraction of initial profit. Today's major artists are marketed brands (more than in the past).

Today, one must also sell the artist himself.