Thatcher, Chavez and basic respect for each other.....

Mods, feel free to move, if needed. This seemed the more appropriate place as Rant was close but didn't capture the tone I felt I needed here. It's not a rant, but a reflection on decency or the lack thereof lately.

First, before I begin I need to say without qualification. I was wrong. I wasn't just a little wrong....I was spectacularly wrong.

When Hugo Chavez died, I joined in with a number of people who basically danced a Jig right over the top of plenty of other members who, in good faith and sincerity, respected or thought well of him as a leader. Now I didn't much care at that moment because my feelings for that man ran SO far opposite, I couldn't fathom someone respecting him and being genuine with the sentiment. I couldn't imagine ....they really meant that. If they did? Well, they could deal with it while the rest of us had our moment of pleasure.

That extended across memorial threads and bash Chavez threads alike. There weren't much for boundaries respected or even recognized as I recall just a short time ago.

I don't mind saying today that I'm a bit ashamed of myself and it took being among those that respected the Thatcher for, if NOTHING else, her contribution with Reagan toward the fall of the Soviet Empire through I period of time I lived through to recall personally.

So, it is, with hat in hand ..I come to admit just how wrong and misguided that had been. It took another member calling me a hypocrite on the Thatcher outrage to realize ....I couldn't argue him. I couldn't deny it ...and that hurt deeply to face in myself. I have literally BEEN what I was so angry AT and so very recently, too. (TheCompte, I figure you intended no favors in calling me out for what I've become in some ways....but you did me a favor beyond what you could have figured)

___________________________________

That brings me to my second point in writing this today. I'd like to point out a couple things, as I've come to consider them carefully since that thread.

#1. Respect for the dead, isn't the point. Respect for a person's life or accomplishments, isn't the point. I have neither for Chavez..and never will. That, however, didn't make it right to tear up and crap on the people who DID and at the moment of his passing at that. Respect for the leader or figure simply isn't what matters or ever should, in my (revised) opinion.

#2. Carrying hate to the extent that it came out against Hugo and again against Margaret by people like myself and others who never personally knew either and understand NO man (or woman) is an island to act in isolation, is toxic. It's toxic to the one holding it and it's toxic to everyone around them when the cork is popped for it to spew forth. Again..in my humble opinion.

#3. Finally...the most important thing I've come to realize in a couple troubled days of considering this among other very serious real world issues I'm dealing with right now, is simply this. It IS about respect for EACH OTHER, not the name or face in the news. It IS about some basic decency toward the feelings, beliefs and overall worldview of others who DO see the world very differently. Particularly on a site like ATS where we have die hard capitalists, moderate socialists and die hard communists existing among a mix of EVERYTHING in between.

I didn't and perhaps couldn't fully appreciate or understand what the 'dance' we all did over Chavez actually felt like to those we did it OVER. If I'd stopped reveling for a moment to consider it, I should have ...and that is where that bit of shame comes in. I couldn't be bothered to. Likewise the other direction now with a former leader of England.

So, it's with as much a hope for forgiveness as a plea for consideration that I say, think about the impact words can have. To as well as from each of us. Mere words CAN carry the force of a slap across the face and the challenge of a kick to the family jewels. They most certainly can......without regard to side they come from. When said in hate, hate is all that will be returned.

Last, perhaps it's equally important to remember, the target of our feelings is dead. THEY can't hear, be bothered by or CARE what anyone left behind has to say or think. ONLY those still here can find joy or pain in what is being said after the fact. We only hurt each other ...not those we rightly, in each of our individual worldviews, see as a problem of the past. ....for past it is, once they pass.

- A morose and sorry Rabbit.

It was also fine when OBL died, parties on the street.
I think the people in the USA did not even understand the hatred for MT.
Like I said I will not celebrate but I will not grieve for her.
Nice words Wabbit but is isn't how we function all the time.
S&F.

Just to add though people do have a right to express hatred to others...I would not show any respect for a Nazi war criminal dying nor did anyone show any respect for Adolf dying in WW2.

S&F..

I just realised how little I know of Chavez to even comment on your position.. but the discourse in the UK is in my mind a lot deeper than Maggie and goes to the very fabric of our society and the lines which divide not just England, but the nations of these Isles, and is in my opinion a deep disquiet that goes back a long, long way.

Maggie happens to be one of those rare points in time that this discourse can galvanise around and be voiced, where the passions can come out and not be dismissed, perhaps it will actually be good for us in the long run to have a real clearing the air, regardless of how unsavoury it is, this house really does need airing..

Of course that is just my opinion.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Well said.

In your defense (and obviously mine and a lot of other posters on ATS). We are imperfect emotional Human beings.

That's not an excuse. It's just a fact. We all need to take a step back, take a deep breath and count to ten now and again.

Again well said.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


While I did not shed a tear for Chavez, I did not chastise those who celebrated M. Thatcher's death either. I paid my respects and that was that.

Free speech is a bitch sometimes, but the real essence isn't being able to speak your mind, but defending those with whom you disagree with.

You aren't a hypocrite if you disagree with them, Brother Wrabbit. But you are if you try to shut them up.

Namaste.

I appreciate the replies here. Please skip over and ignore the mistakes in the OP post. I didn't proof read that at all. It was posted as I typed it and hit submit after a cursory skim to make sure nothing glaring was there...like a gross misspelling or a typo to turn an intended word into a cuss error. (My first trip into the chat room got me banned from the chat room for a bit after referencing something "as a whole" and typo'ing the w off....err...lessons learned early on. lol)

Anyway, that wasn't easy to make and I just noticed that no one is gloating over the top of me, even if I may deserve it in this case. That's class. Thanks.

Translation: It was fine when me and my buddies celebrated when someone died, but since then I have evolved and so the rest of you should stop it immediately. Of course...when the next person I hate dies...I will once again celebrate.


This is 100% true hypocrisy.

reply to post by xedocodex

Of course...when the next person I hate dies...I will once again celebrate.

I deserve that ..and you deserve a reply, anything else between our presence across the forums here not withstanding.

I am sure you and others will be watching, as you always are ...and if I were to have eaten my serving of humble pie with a dash of crow, to return to doing precisely what I've just publicly apologized for? I won't have the credibility (or integrity) to tell anyone the current time or weather, let alone anything they can't check by looking directly. I have no doubt ...that won't slide either. Not one inch. I know that and was aware of it when I made this thread.

So, with the above considered, I'd hope to be taken sincerely unless shown otherwise.....tho I'm certainly in no position on this to be insisting or taking stands beyond what has already been said.