Love is the power to change.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
Are we prepared to love knowing someone is loving "hurting" someone who loves being "hurt"?

Prepared? Conditioned, as in women and we are socialized, almost expecting a broken heart. I'm having a hard time with your syntax or something, like it's a trick question. You aren't even talking about here loving someone directly, but loving the idea or knowledge, if I understand you correctly, that poeple love to hurt (sadism) and others love to be hurt (masochism.)

Is this what you are speaking of? And how exactly is this related to the OP, or at least it's title?

Originally posted by Angle

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
someone is loving "hurting" someone who loves being "hurt"?

Someone who minds not to be hurt, to love being hurt is impossible.

edit on 10-4-2013 by Angle because: (no reason given)

I beg to differ, Angie. There are those who enjoy pain, quite literally......they are called masochistst, not to be confused with martrys, who allow themselves to be hurt to aggrandize themselves by the evident sacrifice and often use it as a tool of manipulation.

reply to post by Angle

Is the only reason I live just to make fun of me? Should I feel hurt when they do that? I really had a horrible past.

Surely it is not the only reason you live....and for who to make fun of you, someone else or are you making fun of yourself. I am finding much of the wording in this thread by various posters confusing as though the identities and actions are all jumbled up. Should you feel hurt when you are made up of? I do. I mean, I try not to take myself too seriously, try to have a sense of humor, and in fact, my sense of humor is often self deprecating so used to beind made fun of, myself. However, when someone is making fun of observing my obvious pain at another's hands, well then, yes, shouldn't that hurt you? Shouldn't it hurt incredibly that this is how depraved it has become , that there is so much hatred for anyone, that this is funny to watch? I doubt it would be funny for the person restrained and beaten.
Your last comment I find the most revealing about you, and share that with you, as well, as in horrible past. Sometimes horrible present, like that, too.
Being abused by someone for their pleasure is evil, plain and simple. Now, if someone told me I had to accept that so it wasn't done to my child, for example, well, obviously I would opt to be the one abused or hurt.
But let's look at it another way....for your OP title suggests that you can change your attitude about accepting being hurt if you love the person hurting you. If that is, in fact, part of what you are exploring here, and from your responses and the other posters', it seems a large part of what is being pondered.

Psychologists say that children often appear closer to and have an inherent response to protect their abuser. They suggest it is because a child identifies with the person or parent with whom they have the more antagonizing relationship. That's pretty easy to figure out: you're always trying to figure out how to please the person so they'll stop hurting you, thinking if you could ever do that, measure up, do it right, whatever the excuse is used when the person is hurting them for hurting them, then they'd stop hurting you. So do you forgive, adjust your expectations and love them despite the fact they hurt you?

Many do, because it's a coping mechanism, but then what usually proceeds from there is turning the pain and frustration inwards, and blaming oneself.

And that, in turn, often begins a cycle and habit, later in life, repeating the same relationship with the same conflicts, being drawn to it, despite any intellectual knowledge otherwise, almost helplessly, because it begins to feel "normal." It is the problem with people claiming to love, and yet abusing what/who they love.




Forgiving and adjusting is one thing, Angie. But in general, we don't deserve to be hurt, nor made fun of, and never, ever, should we adjust to being hurt just because we love who hurts us. And this from someone who has done just that. And wondered if it was karmically necessary, because if we reincarnate, then obviously I am meeting this person in another relationship because we did not work out the conflict of the last in the last life, so maybe the only thing to do is acquiesce for the sake of trying one more time to settle said conflict so that our karma, in this painful regard, can be disentangled.
But, I can tell from what you post, you deserve to be loved, without pain or abuse, or anyone making fun of you, for none of that is an expression of any kind of love.
Tetra

Everybody deserves to be loved, otherwise you haven't forgiven. Isn't that right? Maybe the world lacks forgiveness. People doing evil acts because they feel unforgiven, and started not to give a something anymore. (How does one tell)

Is it to accuse or to forgive?

People look at eachother in a weird way because they've come to find themselves to be weird. Why do we have the feeling we are ackward? Able to do evil without hesitation. Not able to control ourselves, witholding of doing evil. Did evil became the standard of life? Evil became a way of living?

A lot of people (in psychiatry and outside) should just be labeled confused sometimes. And confused by what if there is an illogical source for this confusion. I have my real life, my emotions and my mind and these three have been out of touch with eachother for so long. How has this become possible. Because of all the stupid crap we were fed. Crap we wouldn't give attention anyway but they kept on crapping so it became us. They've made us that way, able to do wrong things. From another perspective it is just we were created for accusation. One that cannot be accused of something is not normal. That is the standard in this world. And going against it does not help, you need to do wrong, so you can be accused and punished, and that feeling that comes with it, that became the standard feeling of life. We aren't allowed to be normal, as the feeling of being normal was.

ppffff

We could see a consiracy behind this, being, just to keep the lawsystem running. What will the system do? What does it want us to become for it to exist, to be able to contiue existing. We're being milked.


On the other hand, it can be the lawsystem itself that became confused,.. by itself then too.
It is not stable anymore, and to keep control just performing, ah I don't know. But maybe the lawsystem is already situated beneath the mass public since the latter,.. is becoming a lawsystem on itself

Originally posted by tetra50
Who defines what "hurts?" well, I would think the person being tied up and tortured and suffering the pain of that torture. Just wanted to make quite clear in some cases this is anything but relative. And by judging the amount of "love letters" many serial killers and other murderers get while in jail, there is some primeval fascination or something going on there, but I question whether this is love.

as for: "Do You love that which would hurt you but another loves?" This isn't making sense to me, really. Someone would hurt you, but someone else (say the mother that gave birth to them loves them still......
well, sure. People are almost all capable of hurting others, usually emotionally, out of lack of consideration (meaning not torturers,killers etc, necessarily), and people still love them, anyway. But I don't really get how this applies either way.

The question is directed at the situation where you are observing someone else and it is your interpretation that someone is being hurt, but they aren't asking for help and resist it if offered.

Do you proceed to intervene without being asked to do so... possibly to the point of forcing your help upon them without their consent because you believe they are unable to help themselves?

If someone is being tortured and screaming for help and accepts when help is offered... that's pretty clear. That's not the "hurt" the vast majority of people are navigating right now though... nor the sort of "hurt" people are swimming in the most. Who makes the decision to intervene on someone's behalf without their consent? Why them?

Who do you want to intervene on your behalf against your consent if someone else perceives you as being hurt but you aren't seeking or accepting help?

I fully understand what you and the OP intend and feel.

Thank you all... I love you even when it "hurts" and it appears like I've forgotten how.

reply to post by Miracula


Now I figured you guys out how you manage to speak those ridiculous claims. Benefits of a fractured mind. Ah, it's evil taking on on itself.

When love hurts you're on the wrong side, but there are three sides to be on and none is good.

Originally posted by tetra50
Who defines what "hurts?" well, I would think the person being tied up and tortured and suffering the pain of that torture. Just wanted to make quite clear in some cases this is anything but relative. And by judging the amount of "love letters" many serial killers and other murderers get while in jail, there is some primeval fascination or something going on there, but I question whether this is love.

as for: "Do You love that which would hurt you but another loves?" This isn't making sense to me, really. Someone would hurt you, but someone else (say the mother that gave birth to them loves them still......
well, sure. People are almost all capable of hurting others, usually emotionally, out of lack of consideration (meaning not torturers,killers etc, necessarily), and people still love them, anyway. But I don't really get how this applies either way.

reply to Ergo the Conclusion

The question is directed at the situation where you are observing someone else and it is your interpretation that someone is being hurt, but they aren't asking for help and resist it if offered.

Do you proceed to intervene without being asked to do so... possibly to the point of forcing your help upon them without their consent because you believe they are unable to help themselves?

If someone is being tortured and screaming for help and accepts when help is offered... that's pretty clear. That's not the "hurt" the vast majority of people are navigating right now though... nor the sort of "hurt" people are swimming in the most. Who makes the decision to intervene on someone's behalf without their consent? Why them?

Who do you want to intervene on your behalf against your consent if someone else perceives you as being hurt but you aren't seeking or accepting help?

I fully understand what you and the OP intend and feel.

Thank you all... I love you even when it "hurts" and it appears like I've forgotten how.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion

That's not the "hurt" the vast majority of people are navigating right now though... nor the sort of "hurt" people are swimming in the most. Who makes the decision to intervene on someone's behalf without their consent? Why them?

And this point of yours is profound, yet beautifully expressed for so many potentially excruciating different and unique situations, each calling for different responses, as the circumstances vary so much and can be clear cut,(as in the child abuse and so painful, and some circumstances just downright conflicting and confusing (as in the couple).....as well as what I alluded to earlier with the strange attraction and self destructiveness of the women attracted to serial killers on death row.

All, in different ways, express such dysfunction and confusion--for some reason I hate to use the word sickness, though I suppose it does apply, evident and frequent in our society in regards to socialization, sexuality, etc.... Some would say what the stepdaughter endured could cause her later to be the woman being hit at Mardi Gras in public, a reaction of self destructiveness borne out of partly shame, perhaps partly after when we are maturing whatever we experience under the guise or mask of "love," becomes familiar, our expectations, or just an emotional conflict never resolved that we cannot stop reacting to somehow in some way, carrying over and projecting throughtout our lives, without finding a way to break that cycle. Or perhaps we become inured, used to something, and it is the closest or only thing we experience like "love," when it is only possession or domination or outright abuse.

So, though Angie's threads often are so concisely put, so few words, the issues she brings to the fore, blow you away with their complexity, and the places it requires us to take our minds, not always comfortable, and sometimes downright disturbing even just how it requires of us to look within, and remember our ownn shame or consider what we have put up with in the name of "love," that nearly destroyed us---and some of us, broke us permanently----when none of it described has a goddamn thing to do with love.

So then Angie's question, love is the power to change.....becomes an incredibly complex and difficult to look at thing.

What should we change. How much should we adjust to. where is our line. what is healthy, for whatever we've lived through, and mostly, where and why, is love so very very hard, an authentic love, so very hard to find.....and how sad and traumatic all of this can be, and frequently, too frequently is....
Be well, be yourself, and please do not misunderstand the earlier replies I made to you.....for your points are all valid.
Tetra

It's still the issue that we can look for love in the wrong places. We tend to handle things the wrong way. Or is there a different approach to things?

The message I receive is we need to take other people with us.

I was too selective in life I think. I had a judgement. And I feel much more loved and freeer now since I am working on it and I have done a good job already. I may not be so selective on people. People can have more inside to what appears on the outside. I thought everyone would be running around with it like it was for sale "in this new era". Still, some people are afraid to be happy nowadays, so it seems. Are there ones running around killing love or what? Now that is murder. Evil. Satan. Mind or in fact 'No mind'. The mind is wrongly focussed and evil deeds are done.

nnnh

reply to post by tetra50


Yes, good points made all.

And yes, sickness, but they are not sick but get sick sometimes, and then 'the bad things' happen. But have you ever seen someones face when you tell them something is bad. They smile and laugh at you. Now that's just what it is. When you say that was evil, then you have the right to give your kid a slap in the face. We judge things wrong so they don't understand.

Tetra(50), my nickname is AngLe, and I'm your bro'.

Love is over rated. Don't get me wrong, but the whole 'love' concept to me way way way to over rated. It has it's place. I've been married to the same person for 35 years, is that love? No, but it sure helps a lot! As a matter of fact, I was just thinking, how many times do I actually experience it every day? Is it something as simple as having an extra Goto line in my emotional programming? "Questions, Questions, Questions, flooding the minds of todays concerned young individuals" so sayeth Frank Zappa !

reply to post by CarbonBase


I see. 'Love' that is overrated is not that what love is.


In this loving society we don't go on love.

Originally posted by Miracula

Besides magic is more entertaining then love.

The opposite is true.

reply to post by Angle


Hey, Bro. And I would be your sister. but as to this, if you were serious:

Now that's just what it is. When you say that was evil, then you have the right to give your kid a slap in the face.

I'm afraid I don't agree at all. How can we teach not to hit by hitting, or how not to be evil and not to hurt, by being evil and hurting?

reply to post by tetra50


I don't know, I couldn't slap them either, but that's how I grew up.