The Unforgiveable Sin

reply to post by NOTurTypical


If you're concerned with staying on topic at all, then hopefully the OP's mention of "God" is relevant to your opinions and views in this subject as well. Sin is predominantly a Christian idea in this particular stage of global development - that is to say, you mostly hear about it from the Christian parties. Hence, it's almost expected for "God" to crop up in the discussion at some point. If that's not something you're willing to discuss, then perhaps you should do some thinking about your participation here as well.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I'm pretty sure the context of the OP is Islam.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Islam was one example of the context. The context itself is subject to a number of closely related matters. You know ATS...it doesn't take much to run from the weather to genetically modified food products to James Holmes and gun rights to Obama is the antichrist.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

My assertion is that we can control our own destiny. We have the power to influence the direction and pace of our lives. And you want me to prove that we have that influence? Every second of every day of every year, you have at least a dozen choices, a dozen different courses of action from moment to moment. When you have all those choices...how are you not the captain of your ship? You decide what you are subjected to, and you decide how you react to it. That's as much control as anything can ever have.

we can't control our destiny, we can make choices but have no power over fate.
See it a conditioned lab rat believing that it can always make food appear by pressing a lever!
To control destiny, you need absolute knowledge.
To have absolute control of a simple train journey, i need complete knowledge of condition of the rail tracks, condition of every moving part of train, competence of every human involved etc etc.
You can only make a choice to buy the ticket and board the train, if you reach the destination safely, it was fate, if the train broke down and you got delayed, its again fate.
Fate is what you can't foresee due absence of absolute knowledge.
Fooling yourself that you are in total control hits harder when the illusion shatters, being aware of reality keeps you flexible and flexible people don't break easily.

Who taught you that you have no control over your own lifes destiny? We make the choices of our own fate. You are not a conditioned lab rat (though may descirbe your personal journey HUMAN). You are leaving everything else to chance; now there is beauty in knowing that everything happening to you is RELEVANT, it is another thing to ignore it and proclaim yourself a VICTIM of circumstances beyond your control. Fate and destiny is tied to Karma (so being you are your own worst enemy as you accept it). Your job in this life is to determine the difference; you are absolute and are in control. Your illusion shatters when you doubt your own being and accept helplessness as your dictum. Shame on you; where is your personal responsibility?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

I'm a supporter of personal responsibility. But don't let that be an endorsement for coersion or violence to achieve one's desires, I also believe in morality and liberty and think one person's rights end where another person's begin.

So you are saying that when anothers rights begin and (OF COURSE) infringe upon yours you cave to their rights seemingly supreme? Do you realize this is insanity speaking; theirs or yours in compliance. Morality has nothing to do with Liberty. One is a self known through your god/concious the other is implied/enforced LAW by others, (as in your liberty can be taken at will by some structured element that deemed you have "broken it" whatever their abstraction quantifies the defintion); you are sunk.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Who taught you that you have no control over your own lifes destiny?

simple observation will do it if you try..

There is sure a relation between action and it consequence but its limited to simplified single event but as things get complicated the consequence becomes less and less predictable.

If you believe that you are in full control of your fate, kindly tell me when and how you have planned to die!!!

Just saying a few philosophical sentences does not make simple observable facts to be false. You are ofcource free to delude yourself.

There are choices to be made but still a lot depends on chance.
I am not denying personal responsibility, neither am i a piece of driftwood going where the water takes me. I try my best to make the choices that will bring results i desire but i am not deluded and so open to the fact that the outcome may not be what i wanted.

Maybe you sleep every night with a CERTAINTY that you will sure wake up the next morning. Do you?(lets see if you are wise or just arrogant)

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Who taught you that you have no control over your own lifes destiny?

simple observation will do it if you try..There is sure a relation between action and it consequence but its limited to simplified single event but as things get complicated the consequence becomes less and less predictable.If you believe that you are in full control of your fate, kindly tell me when and how you have planned to die!!!Just saying a few philosophical sentences does not make simple observable facts to be false. You are ofcource free to delude yourself.There are choices to be made but still a lot depends on chance.I am not denying personal responsibility, neither am i a piece of driftwood going where the water takes me. I try my best to make the choices that will bring results i desire but i am not deluded and so open to the fact that the outcome may not be what i wanted. Maybe you sleep every night with a CERTAINTY that you will sure wake up the next morning. Do you?(lets see if you are wise or just arrogant)

I take your thoughts and turn them into a contiguous run-on sentence for starters. How do you observe yourself exactly as in simply put/defined? Why do you suppose events are singular (they are related as in the actions create results a sort of chain reaction). Free will and self determinism define your FATE, you chose to be a ventriliquist and as unlikely a profession (vaudvilleian) succeeded, who knew. Nothing in your life is left to chance. You planned all of it before incarnating. You had a plan to progress your soul (the fact you forgot the plan is no ones problem but your own) and the rememberance of that plan was the KEY. I do not live in fear of potencially not waking up tomorrow, why do you? I will decide when and how I will leave this world, why do you not understand this is within your choices as well? Who is telling you that there are NO alternatives regarding your PERSONAL GROWTH OUTCOME it is your Soul/Spirit in jeapardy of having once again to do this 3D carnival ride. Am I wise or just arrogant. I am piece of driftwood that learned to swim grew scales and fins then while dreaming itself into being=== became my own project "a humanbeing". As to your comments regarding a state of "Delusion" it takes an observer to define it opine it; that would generally describe all cornerstones as/is ITSELF IDENTIFIED. Congradulations.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Nothing in your life is left to chance. You planned all of it before incarnating. You had a plan to progress your soul (the fact you forgot the plan is no ones problem but your own) and the rememberance of that plan was the KEY.

so the idea of full control of fate is to remember what the soul had planned and then follow it whether you like it or not. That sure looks like absolute control on destiny!!!

I do not live in fear of potencially not waking up
tomorrow, why do you?

how you assume that i am afraid of dying? I am just aware that i am mortal and not in control of when it will happen.

I will decide
when and how I will leave this world,
why do you not understand this is
within your choices as well?

i am not talking about the ability to commit suicide!!

reply to post by vethumanbeing


What I'd like to know is why you think that. Why did you get these ideas from?

some arguements from the Qur'an.

Surah 30, Rum(Romans)

7. They know only the outside appearance of the life of the world (i.e.
the matters of their livelihood, like
irrigating or sowing or reaping, etc.),
and they are heedless of the Hereafter.
8. Do they not think deeply (in their ownselves) about themselves (how
Allah created them from nothing, and
similarly He will resurrect them)? Allah
has created not the heavens and the
earth, and all that is between them,
except with truth and for an appointed term. And indeed many of
mankind deny the Meeting with their
Lord. 9. Do they not travel in the land, and see what was the end of those before
them? They were superior to them in
strength, and they tilled the earth and
populated it in greater numbers than
these (pagans) have done, and there
came to them their Messengers with clear proofs. Surely, Allah wronged
them not, but they used to wrong
themselves. 10. Then evil was the end of those who did evil, because they belied the
Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses,
lessons, signs, revelations,
Messengers, etc.) of Allah and made
mock of them. 11. Allah (Alone) originates the creation, then He will repeat it, then to
Him you will be returned. 12. And on the Day when the Hour will be established, the Mujrimun
(disbelievers, sinners, criminals,
polytheists, etc.) will be plunged into
destruction with deep regrets,
sorrows, and despair. 13. No intercessor will they have from those whom they made equal with
Allah (partners i.e. their so-called
associate gods), and they will
(themselves) reject and deny their
partners. 14. And on the Day when the Hour will be established, that Day shall (all men)
be separated (i.e the believers will be
separated from the disbelievers). 15. Then as for those who believed (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic
Monotheism) and did righteous good
deeds, such shall be honoured and
made to enjoy luxurious life (forever)
in a Garden of delight (Paradise). 16. And as for those who disbelieved and belied Our Ayat (proofs,
evidences, verses, lessons, signs,
revelations, Allah's Messengers,
Resurrection, etc.), and the Meeting of
the Hereafter, such shall be brought
forth to the torment (in the Hell-fire). 17. So glorify Allah [above all that (evil) they associate with Him (O
believers)], when you come up to the
evening [i.e. offer the (Maghrib) sunset
and ('Isha') night prayers], and when
you enter the morning [i.e offer the
(Fajr) morning prayer]. 18. And His is all the praises and thanks in the heavens and the earth,
and (glorify Him) in the afternoon (i.e.
offer 'Asr prayer) and when you come
up to the time, when the day begins to
decline (i.e offer Zuhr prayer). (Ibn
'Abbas said: "These are the five compulsory congregational prayers
mentioned in the Qur'an)." 19. He brings out the living from the dead, and brings out the dead from
the living. And He revives the earth
after its death. And thus shall you be
brought out (resurrected). 20. And among His Signs is this, that He created you (Adam) from dust, and
then - behold you are human beings
scattered! 21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among
yourselves, that you may find repose
in them, and He has put between you
affection and mercy. Verily, in that are
indeed signs for a people who reflect. 22. And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth,
and the difference of your languages
and colours. Verily, in that are indeed
signs for men of sound knowledge. 23. And among His Signs is the sleep that you take by night and by day, and
your seeking of His Bounty. Verily, in
that are indeed signs for a people who
listen. 24. And among His Signs is that He shows you the lightning, by way of
fear and hope, and He sends down
water (rain) from the sky, and
therewith revives the earth after its
death. Verily, in that are indeed signs
for a people who understand. 25. And among His Signs is that the heaven and the earth stand by His
Command, then afterwards when He
will call you by single call, behold, you
will come out from the earth (i.e from
your graves for reckoning and
recompense). 26. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are
obedient to Him. 27. And He it is Who originates the creation, then will repeat it (after it has
been perished), and this is easier for
Him. His is the highest description (i.e.
none has the right to be worshipped
but He, and there is nothing
comparable unto Him) in the heavens and in the earth. And He is the All-
Mighty, the All-Wise.

reply to post by logical7


What was the point of posting that?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

What was the point of posting that?

if you havent noticed, thats the topic, its an Unforgiveable Sin to worship anyone along with Allah.

reply to post by logical7

if you havent noticed, thats the topic, its an Unforgiveable Sin to worship anyone along with Allah.

What if you choose to worship no one? What if you refuse to recognize any god as your master?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

if you havent noticed, thats the topic, its an Unforgiveable Sin to worship anyone along with Allah.

What if you choose to worship no one? What if you refuse to recognize any god as your master?

well if you sincerely think their is no god then its different
but if someone has felt that their is a possibility of God but then chose to deny it because acknowledging it or seeking to find out more would be inconvinient for his/her way of life then its called kufr(covering up)
So covering up after knowing the truth is really bad, its lying to oneself and living a life on lies.
Thats a sin. Its unforgiveable in a way as that person has chosen to worship his/her own way of life over the truth.

reply to post by logical7

well if you sincerely think their is no god then its different
but if someone has felt that their is a possibility of God but then chose to deny it because acknowledging it or seeking to find out more would be inconvinient for his/her way of life then its called kufr(covering up)

Even if there was a god, I would refuse to recognize it as my master. I am my own master.

So covering up after knowing the truth is really bad, its lying to oneself and living a life on lies.
Thats a sin. Its unforgiveable in a way as that person has chosen to worship his/her own way of life over the truth.

When I asked "what if you choose to worship no one?", that question included the self. I don't believe in worship. I believe in veneration, recognition, and gratitude: veneration for what is, recognition for what's possible, and gratitude for what was. But not worship. There's a difference. Worship means debt and subjugation. You will never be that which you admire. You will always be unworthy but for the grace of that which you admire. You will always be beholden to that which you admire, as you are inferior and worthless as a result. Your value is a direct product of your allegiance and servitude. I don't believe in that.

I believe in becoming that which you admire. I believe in perpetual mastery - a lifetime of becoming that which you deem to be valuable to your code as a human being. There's no need to be godly, or to worship a god. Simply be the best of what you admire, for the best of your world, and your duty as a human being is fulfilled.

No worship necessary.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Even if there was a god, I would refuse to recognize it as my master. I am my own master.

thats your choice, how right it is, will be a different arguement.

Worship means debt and subjugation.

thats your understanding. Worship means gratitude and admiration based on pure merit.

I believe in becoming that which you
admire.

well it depends a lot on whether the object of your admiration is really worth it. People admire a celebrity and try to imitate him/her. Thats idol worship, i don't find that reasonable to worship a human that does drugs and unmentionable things and is yet admired.

There's no need to be
godly, or to worship a god. Simply be the best of what you admire, for the
best of your world, and your duty as a
human being is fulfilled.

if God is true, we cant help but admire and marvel at all that He created, refusing to admire it is just plain rude and arrogant. Thats worship.

Duty? If human beings have a duty, tell me to whom they owe it? and why?

reply to post by AfterInfinity



here's more arguement from Qur'an that you may like to debate.

41. And those on the Left Hand Who will be those on the Left Hand?

42. In fierce hot wind and boiling water,

43. And shadow of black smoke,

44. (That shadow) neither cool, nor (even) good,

45. Verily, before that, they indulged in luxury,

46. And were persisting in great sin (joining partners in worship along

with Allah, committing murders and

other crimes, etc.)

47. And they used to say: "When we die and become dust and bones, shall

we then indeed be resurrected?

48. "And also our forefathers?"

49. Say (O Muhammad ): "(Yes) verily, those of old, and those of later

times.

50. "All will surely be gathered together for appointed Meeting of a

known Day.

51. "Then moreover, verily, you the erring-ones, the deniers (of

Resurrection)!

52. "You verily will eat of the trees of Zaqqum.

53. "Then you will fill your bellies therewith,

54. "And drink boiling water on top of it,

55. "So you will drink (that) like thirsty camels!"

56. That will be their entertainment on the Day of Recompense!

57. We created you, then why do you believe not?

58. Then tell Me (about) the human semen that you emit.

59. Is it you who create it (i.e. make this semen into a perfect human

being), or are We the Creator?

60. We have decreed death to you all, and We are not unable,

61. To transfigure you and create you in (forms) that you know not.

62. And indeed, you have already known the first form of creation (i.e.

the creation of Adam), why then do

you not remember or take heed?

63. Tell Me! The seed that you sow in the ground.

64. Is it you that make it grow, or are We the Grower?

65. Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry pieces, and you would be

regretful (or left in wonderment).

66. (Saying): "We are indeed Mughramun (i.e. ruined or lost the

money without any profit, or punished

by the loss of all that we spend for

cultivation, etc.)!

67. "Nay, but we are deprived!"

68. Tell Me! The water that you drink.

69. Is it you who cause it from the rainclouds to come down, or are We

the Causer of it to come down?

70. If We willed, We verily could make it salt (and undrinkable), why then do

you not give thanks (to Allah)?

71. Tell Me! The fire which you kindle,

72. Is it you who made the tree thereof to grow, or are We the

Grower?

73. We have made it a Reminder (for the Hell-fire, in the Hereafter); and an

article of use for the travellers (and all

the others, in this world).

74. Then glorify with praises the Name of your Lord, the Most Great.

75. So I swear by Mawaqi (setting or the mansions, etc.) of the stars (they

traverse).

76. And verily, that is indeed a great oath, if you but know.

77. That (this) is indeed an honourable recital (the Noble Qur'an).

78. In a Book well-guarded (with Allah in the heaven i.e. Al-Lauh Al-

Mahfuz).

79. Which (that Book with Allah) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the

angels).

80. A Revelation (this Qur'an) from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns

and all that exists).

81. Is it such a talk (this Qur'an) that you (disbelievers) deny?

82. And instead (of thanking Allah) for the provision He gives you, on the

contrary, you deny Him (by disbelief)!

83. Then why do you not (intervene) when (the soul of a dying person)

reaches the throat?

84. And you at the moment are looking on,

85. But We (i.e. Our angels who take the soul) are nearer to him than you,

but you see not,

86. Then why do you not, if you are exempt from the reckoning and

recompense (punishment, etc.)

87. Bring back the soul (to its body), if you are truthful?

88. Then, if he (the dying person) be of the Muqarrabun (those brought

near to Allah),

89. (There is for him) rest and provision, and a Garden of delights

(Paradise).

90. And if he (the dying person) be of those on the Right Hand,

91. Then there is safety and peace (from the Punishment of Allah) for

(you as you are from) those on the

Right Hand.

92. But if he (the dying person) be of the denying (of the Resurrection), the

erring (away from the Right Path of

Islamic Monotheism),

93. Then for him is entertainment with boiling water.

94. And burning in Hell-fire.

95. Verily, this! This is an absolute Truth with certainty. 96. So glorify with praises the Name of your Lord, the Most Great.

reply to post by logical7

thats your choice, how right it is, will be a different arguement.

Who are you to determine what is right and what is wrong?

thats your understanding. Worship means gratitude and admiration based on pure merit.

1wor·ship
noun \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-\
Definition of WORSHIP
1
chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2
: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3
: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4
: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

I see nothing about merit. I see a lot about reverence for supernatural powers - mind you, supernatural merely means "beyond what we know of nature". Considering our species isn't even a million years old yet, in contrast to the cockroach or the crocodile, how much do you really expect us to know about what nature is?

Most worship nowadays is expressed as subjugation and servitude.

well it depends a lot on whether the object of your admiration is really worth it. People admire a celebrity and try to imitate him/her. Thats idol worship, i don't find that reasonable to worship a human that does drugs and unmentionable things and is yet admired.

I don't find it reasonable to worship a secretive all-powerful dictator who displays narcissistic tendencies and demonstrates a prevalence towards authoritarian regimes with an emotionally unbalanced undertone.

if God is true, we cant help but admire and marvel at all that He created, refusing to admire it is just plain rude and arrogant. Thats worship.

That's a conditional statement. If. No one has yet proven that a sentient force is responsible for the universe. And technically speaking, omniscience and omnipresence is the same as nonsentience. If you know everything and are everything, you possess no individual identity. You are the embodiment of every moment and every inch of space that has ever existed and will ever exist. You must be distinct to possess an identity. You must be apart from everything in some sense. Saying that "God" is omnipresent and omniscient is the same thing as saying that if something exists, whether as an idea or as a corporeal form, it is "God". Which means that the sun, the moon, the earth, and everything on the earth, and every single particle and moment in the universe is a facet of "God". This means that the entirety of existence is a divine expression. Which means that we are already reconciled, no matter what we do or believe.

But that's if we're being logical about it.

Duty? If human beings have a duty, tell me to whom they owe it? and why?

To themselves.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Who are you to determine what is right and what is wrong?

there is an objective right and wrong that we both will have to agree.

I see nothing about merit.

its common sense, how will you admire someone/something without it having merit.

I don't find it reasonable to worship a
secretive all-powerful dictator who
displays narcissistic tendencies and
demonstrates a prevalence towards
authoritarian regimes with an
emotionally unbalanced undertone.

you have created your own idea of God that conviniently is suited to be criticized. Its Nothing but self gratification.

And technically speaking, omniscience
and omnipresence is the same as
nonsentience.

you are technically right but again Allah is not omnipresent in the sense you assume and then criticize. He is All Aware, All seeing, All hearing but not present in the material creation. Not a part of creation, you don't tear up a part of God when you tear a piece of paper!

Try and know Islamic ideas and then argue, its annoying when you throw christian ideas and feel that you are winning a debate. I have told you islamic ideas make complete sense and i am ready to educate you if you want, if you believe that muslims are a sect of christianity then you cant be more away from the truth.
So i request you not to assume and then criticize your own assumptions. If may sure feel good. Its not productive at all.

reply to post by logical7

there is an objective right and wrong that we both will have to agree.

No, there is a subjective reaction that humans share as a result of common animal instinct.

its common sense, how will you admire someone/something without it having merit.

I would replace 'merit' with 'advantage'. When something has merit, it has a value. When something has an advantage, it has a value beyond that of something else. You worship a deity, not because it has merit, but because it has something you think no other object or person has. That's what I call advantage.

Merit is far too objective and independent a label for what you're describing. Your admiration is based on something that will always be inherently relative because it's always being used in a relative manner. There's no point to being all-powerful or all-knowing if you're not exercising it. There's no point in calling yourself the king of kings or the highest of high if you're not intending to use such a title as a means to an end. And in order to use it effectively, you require others who do not have it.

Not merit. Advantage.

you have created your own idea of God that conviniently is suited to be criticized. Its Nothing but self gratification.

Self gratification? Thank you. I couldn't think of a better label for the Judaic god than 'self-gratifying'.

self–grat·i·fi·ca·tion
noun -ˌgra-tə-fə-ˈkā-shən
Definition of SELF-GRATIFICATION
: the act of pleasing oneself or of satisfying one's desires

And to prove my point - answer this one question for me, to the best of your Christian knowledge. Let's say "God" has two choices:

1. Destroy himself to preserve the universe. His death would invoke an eternity of peace and prosperity for all living creatures throughout the universe. In destroying himself, he would never again be able to exist in any form. His only remaining traces would be his creation.

2. Destroy the universe to preserve his own existence. The continual existence of the universe would weaken him until he could no longer do anything but enjoy the agonized slumber of an old man suffering perpetual degeneration, for as long as he also exists.

To the best of your Christian knowledge, what would he choose?