The Unforgiveable Sin

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Your destiny is to be in the Kingdom, after correction and chastisement, and you are NOT the architect of it. Tell me, Afterinfinity, if you need and desire no god/God, why are you seen so often on threads of this type?

Did you not read my previous posts? Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. With that much influence over your life, how can you not be the architect of your fate?

I am seen on threads of this type because I am trying to show you another way. Self-empowerment, instead of subjugation. I am hopeful that one day you will learn to balance veneration for the external with veneration for the internal. You have dedicated your thought process to a single node in a vast web of ideas. The entirety of that web defines the exact dimensions of each idea that comprises it, but without exploring, your comprehension remains limited. You seem to abhor the implications of being able to make mistakes, like many other Christians, but you don't realize the potential of being imperfect and incomplete. You live. You feel. You exist. If you were perfect, this would not be possible. What you want for yourself is not what you need. It works, but only if you make certain sacrifices in comprehension and ability. I believe these sacrifices are not necessary for what you want to achieve.

That's why I am here.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, I said it's not other's burden to prove your assertions false, it's your burden to prove them true.

That's how logic works. Attempting to make others prove your claims false without you first providing your premise/facts/argument for them being true is called "shifting the burden of proof".

I asked you to show me where you think I'm wrong and why, and you're refusing?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, I said it's not other's burden to prove your assertions false, it's your burden to prove them true.

That's how logic works. Attempting to make others prove your claims false without you first providing your premise/facts/argument for them being true is called "shifting the burden of proof".

I asked you to show me where you think I'm wrong and why, and you're refusing?

I can't until you support your argument.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Here read this definition Infinity, I feel like I'm speaking modern English to ancient Greeks.

 
§   DEFINITION

Shifting the Burden of Proof – occurs when speakers do not prove their own claims while forcing others to prove them.
 

A standard rule in argumentation is “he who asserts must prove,” meaning that the writer bears full responsibility to prove that his or her claims are true.  Writers and speakers, especially when cornered with tough questions, often speak authoritatively, but they sometimes assume that their assertions are valid and place the onus of proof onto the audience

here


Do you understand what I'm talking about now?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


My assertion is that we can control our own destiny. We have the power to influence the direction and pace of our lives. And you want me to prove that we have that influence? Every second of every day of every year, you have at least a dozen choices, a dozen different courses of action from moment to moment. When you have all those choices...how are you not the captain of your ship? You decide what you are subjected to, and you decide how you react to it. That's as much control as anything can ever have.

And that control extends to how well we utilize sin. Since we're obviously not born knowing everything, we have to learn somehow. Trial and error. Sin is necessary. Once you get over your imperfect nature, maybe you can make better use of your mistakes.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well, I can't argue with that. I'm a supporter of personal responsibility. But don't let that be an endorsement for coersion or violence to achieve one's desires, I also believe in morality and liberty and think one person's rights end where another person's begin.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


But we don't need a god for those things. You don't need a god for emotional security, for guidance, for any of that. Everything a deity does for you, you can do for yourself. But more specifically, I don't agree with the abhorrence of sin. Just as we don't need a god to rule us, we don't need any to judge us either. We do enough of that on our own.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

But we don't need a god for those things. You don't need a god for emotional security, for guidance, for any of that. Everything a deity does for you, you can do for yourself. But more specifically, I don't agree with the abhorrence of sin. Just as we don't need a god to rule us, we don't need any to judge us either. We do enough of that on our own.

edit on 9-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I never mentioned God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I never mentioned God.

OP did. And that's all I'm concerned about.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

Please do not tell people that your religion is the only way. You could not be more wrong. God knows how to find the souls that is needed to be activated

i never said that,
in Islamic teachings there are 3 types of 'guidance'
1) guidance/nature of all living beings, to seek food etc, a spider knowing how to spin a web etc
2)guidance by revealation/holy books
3) one on one Guidance from God directly to a person(enlightenment)

but once there is 3 then there is also a need to at least know the do's and dont's to live a life and that is where Qur'an comes in to help, take what makes sense and follow it.

I am sorry if I am to judging religions to hard but from my point of view all religions are more or less a bit off the mark and they get a bad rep from the most fundamentalist interpretation of themselves or maybe I just do not understand them.

I have the same issue with Christianity and Paul lessons. I would probably be comfortable as part of Sufism if I was a Muslim but I do never wanna label myself as part of one view. Thank you soul brother for your patience and do not take my bad mood personally. This place makes me cranky.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Did you not read my previous posts? Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. With that much influence over your life, how can you not be the architect of your fate?

I am seen on threads of this type because I am trying to show you another way. Self-empowerment, instead of subjugation. I am hopeful that one day you will learn to balance veneration for the external with veneration for the internal. You have dedicated your thought process to a single node in a vast web of ideas. The entirety of that web defines the exact dimensions of each idea that comprises it, but without exploring, your comprehension remains limited. You seem to abhor the implications of being able to make mistakes, like many other Christians, but you don't realize the potential of being imperfect and incomplete. You live. You feel. You exist. If you were perfect, this would not be possible. What you want for yourself is not what you need. It works, but only if you make certain sacrifices in comprehension and ability. I believe these sacrifices are not necessary for what you want to achieve.

That's why I am here.

We are not on the same page, and barely speak the same language. We may be the architects of our lives, but that is not the same as our fates. Your life is yours, your fate is not really in your hands, at least according to my understanding. As an ex-libertarian and ex-atheist I think I can see where you are coming from, but really, what do you know of me, or I of you? Were you to come to my home and view the titles in my personal library, you might see that I do not function in an exclusive single node of thinking, as you assume. I dig the "vast web of ideas," but I just interpret them according a different frame of reference than you. Given our respective frames of reference, I think we are both here for much the same reason.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

We are not on the same page, and barely speak the same language.

If the pilgrims could communicate with the Native Americans, I'm sure there's hope for my ventures.

We may be the architects of our lives, but that is not the same as our fates.

Our fate is affected by every choice we make, every moment throughout our lives. Our fate is determined by how we react. Remember the 90% reaction thing? Or what I said about the Law of Attraction? The principle I mentioned? We influence our fate, far more than any external agent. Of every factor that affects the flow of our lives, we are the greatest.

Your life is yours, your fate is not really in your hands, at least according to my understanding.

Then what's your understanding?

As an ex-libertarian and ex-atheist I think I can see where you are coming from, but really, what do you know of me, or I of you? Were you to come to my home and view the titles in my personal library, you might see that I do not function in an exclusive single node of thinking, as you assume. I dig the "vast web of ideas," but I just interpret them according a different frame of reference than you. Given our respective frames of reference, I think we are both here for much the same reason.

Your frame of reference sounds a little skewed. You seem far too ingratiating for someone who has done their research on this god. Have you suspended your reason to give him credibility? Have you missed the fact that he's not the first of his kind? That he is a product of plagiarism, an amalgamation, the bastard child of paganism's political persecution and martyrdom?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

We are not on the same page, and barely speak the same language.

If the pilgrims could communicate with the Native Americans, I'm sure there's hope for my ventures.
Perhaps there is hope, no, there surely is hope.

We may be the architects of our lives, but that is not the same as our fates.

Our fate is affected by every choice we make, every moment throughout our lives. Our fate is determined by how we react. Remember the 90% reaction thing? Or what I said about the Law of Attraction? The principle I mentioned? We influence our fate, far more than any external agent. Of every factor that affects the flow of our lives, we are the greatest.
Your outlook strikes me as Greek, but have you ever considered that your life may be governed more than you know by forces you do not understand?

Your life is yours, your fate is not really in your hands, at least according to my understanding.

Then what's your understanding?
I understand that my ultimate fate is in the Hands of a sovereign, loving God.

As an ex-libertarian and ex-atheist I think I can see where you are coming from, but really, what do you know of me, or I of you? Were you to come to my home and view the titles in my personal library, you might see that I do not function in an exclusive single node of thinking, as you assume. I dig the "vast web of ideas," but I just interpret them according a different frame of reference than you. Given our respective frames of reference, I think we are both here for much the same reason.

Your frame of reference sounds a little skewed. You seem far too ingratiating for someone who has done their research on this god. Have you suspended your reason to give him credibility? Have you missed the fact that he's not the first of his kind? That he is a product of plagiarism, an amalgamation, the bastard child of paganism's political persecution and martyrdom?
Your "facts" are wrong, and skewed at best. You need to dig a little further back in time, for every ancient culture was monotheistic in the beginning. Paganism and religious evil came along later as men lost sight of the True God. This is encoded, for instance, in the old Chinese written language. For another, the Druids worshiped Yesu many centuries before He appeared in Palestine.

edit on 9-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

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edit on 9-4-2013 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Your outlook strikes me as Greek, but have you ever considered that your life may be governed more than you know by forces you do not understand?

If that is the case, then such an influence is so subtle and so utterly pervasive that if you believe in it, you cannot tell me that you are your own person, that you are not a meat sack with strings attached. You may think that your thoughts and emotions are your own...but you will never, ever know if that's really you doing the thinking or doing. In the Men In Black movies, those people who are neuralized are able to question the possibility that they might have been. But even if they were, they can never prove it without the help of the agents who did that to them. In real life, you are able to question the possibility of an outside force powerful beyond anything you can imagine just reaching in and flipping a switch or rewriting your script and erasing every memory of the original version...even going so far as to replace those absent memories with new ones to keep you from figuring it out. And even if that's exactly what happened, you would be unable to prove it.

So really, you can't say for a fact that you are free and independent. As long as an omnipotent being with its own agenda lurks out there somewhere, you aren't safe. Your thoughts aren't safe. Your life is not safe. Nothing about you is safe. The moment he wants something from you, your say in the matter is nonexistent. You are a sacrifice waiting to happen. He's just kind enough to allow you the illusion of freedom until that moment when he decides that his desires are more important than yours.

It's a terrifying concept. And the worst part is, you can't prove me wrong.

I understand that my ultimate fate is in the Hands of a sovereign, loving God.

You choose not to determine your own destiny? You would rather relinquish control over the direction of your life? You would rather subjugate your entire being to a single ruling entity? Isn't that called a dictatorship? Something the entire world has been fighting in its various factions for centuries now?

Humans emulate that which they admire. Basic psychology. What if they admire a being who has redefined narcissism and grandeur as righteousness and benevolence? What if their need for emotional security leads them to embrace the idea of an all-powerful tyrant, so long as they need not fear their own failings?

That's what disturbs me. So long as we cling to such ideals, we will never be free of our reptilian complex. It will always dominate this world.

Your "facts" are wrong, and skewed at best. You need to dig a little further back in time, for every ancient culture was monotheistic in the beginning. Paganism and religious evil came along later as men lost sight of the True God. This is encoded, for instance, in the old Chinese written language. For another, the Druids worshiped Yesu many centuries before He appeared in Palestine.

No, they were not. the Nordics, the Egyptians, the Mayans, the Aztecs, the Incas...I don't have time to pull up all the evidence, but monotheism is a newer concept than you are apparently aware of. Paganism is evil? Like the god of fertility and wisdom, whom the church demonized in order to cover up its crimes? The Druids worshipped one of the many facets that comprise the modern Judaic deity.

reply to post by jiggerj

I kneel to no one. This is my life (as
your life is yours) and I will live it as
***I*** see fit. I am the judge of my
mistakes, and how I will make up for
them.

To judge you require a 'reference' and when the 'I' is so strong and the reference is 'I' too then the 'I' dont think that 'I' made many mistakes.

I have no regrets
when it comes to hating those that oppress, murder, or deprive others for
their own selfish needs. I am human -
I come equipped with hate as much as
I am equipped with love. To deny one
emotion is to deny my own identity.

well thats exactly what God wants, one should also love or hate himself by the same standards and try to keep improving.
God is not just love as some try to hammer it on people's heads, God also hates injustice and oppression and expects us to change it with hands, or words or at least feel it wrong in the heart.

This is what religion wants - sacrifice -
a total surrender of your humanity for
their belief system. This is MY life, and
no one is going to tell me how to live
it.

'YOUR' life? So you made yourself come into existence? And you have determine the time, mode and place of your death too?
If its true then yes you are really free to live how you seem fit but if not then you are doing injustice to the Creator by denying Him and you hate injustice right?

reply to post by logical7

'YOUR' life? So you made yourself come into existence? And you have determine the time, mode and place of your death too? If its true then yes you are really free to live how you seem fit but if not then you are doing injustice to the Creator by denying Him and you hate injustice right?

I gave life to my children. Are they not free to live according to their own beliefs? Do they owe me anything? Did I create their lives to forever be under my rule? No, even if their were a god that created me, I would owe him nothing.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

My assertion is that we can control our own destiny. We have the power to influence the direction and pace of our lives. And you want me to prove that we have that influence? Every second of every day of every year, you have at least a dozen choices, a dozen different courses of action from moment to moment. When you have all those choices...how are you not the captain of your ship? You decide what you are subjected to, and you decide how you react to it. That's as much control as anything can ever have.

we can't control our destiny, we can make choices but have no power over fate.
See it a conditioned lab rat believing that it can always make food appear by pressing a lever!
To control destiny, you need absolute knowledge.
To have absolute control of a simple train journey, i need complete knowledge of condition of the rail tracks, condition of every moving part of train, competence of every human involved etc etc.
You can only make a choice to buy the ticket and board the train, if you reach the destination safely, it was fate, if the train broke down and you got delayed, its again fate.
Fate is what you can't foresee due absence of absolute knowledge.
Fooling yourself that you are in total control hits harder when the illusion shatters, being aware of reality keeps you flexible and flexible people don't break easily.

reply to post by jiggerj

I gave life to my children. Are they not free to live according to their own beliefs? Do they owe me anything? Did I create their lives to forever be under my rule?

no you did not gave life, you dint even know when they got concieved or their sex.
You sure raised them and you deserve respect for that much.
You dint create them and so you don't know whats best for them, they are just humans like you with unique ways of their own.

even if their were a god
that created me, I would owe him nothing.

thats your stand but can you back it with a reason? I'l like to know it.

If you were still feeding your children and they doubted about you being their father, would you still feed them? Maybe, maybe not
wouldnt they be more better if they showed gratitude to you.
'If' there is a God, you not just owe your life to Him but every moment of your existence, every meal, every breath, unless you make your own oxygen from nothing.

Hope you see how much injustice it would be to get all of this and refuse to even acknowledge the one who gave it.

4:147
What can Allah gain by your
punishment, if ye are grateful and ye
believe? Nay, it is Allah that
recogniseth (all good), and knoweth
all things.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


In reference to our ongoing discussion, tell me what you think of this piece that I wrote:

Blind Dogs

So often we see someone walk by a fenced yard containing a dog. The dog usually watches the approach, and at some point begins to bark. The passerby goes on as he/she would have done anyway, but the dog keeps barking as long as his interest is occupied by the retreating figure. Thus, his territorial instincts are satisfied, and he is proud to have once again protected his master’s property by his ferocious barking. The poor dog will do this all day, day in, day out, year in, year out, and for all of his natural life he will never stop to consider that all that barking was all for nothing. In fact, the poor doggie is probably unable to ever think of such a thing. You might simply say, “What of it – it’s just a dog.”

However, have you ever considered that we humans might have just such a blind spot in our existence – an aspect of our lives in which we respond to a stimulus or situation without ever realizing that our efforts do no good whatsoever? What could it be?? We don’t know! We have no way of knowing – if I knew, I could tell you, but I can’t tell you because neither you nor I could ever be aware of such a thing. There is no way to know, but I look at the dog, and I worry. I look at pedestrian and dog, and I know the dog is irrelevant, at most, an annoyance. I look at situations moving through my life and my response to them, and wonder if all my efforts had any real effect, and if I too, am irrelevant. Are we, for all our self-deceptions, putting out efforts which amount to little more than useless yapping at things, which move on their own on the other side of barriers which we can see, but not move through? We can suspect, dimly, but there is no way to be sure, and maybe that is why the dog barks so long…

DD 09-21-2011

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I never mentioned God.

OP did. And that's all I'm concerned about.

Well talk to OP about that. If you quote me then enter a dialogue me, don't use me as a proxy to argue with him/her.