Objects Out of Time

Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by Cauliflower

 

Interesting observation, to back up this hypothesis it is worth noting that Quetzalcoatl and Viracocha were bearded blond men (neither trait being native to the Amerindian people's)...

That myth dates to after bearded men (Spaniards) appeared in the New World, and not before, as fringers would try to have you believe.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Well Quetzalcoatl was described as a plumed Serpent(9 feathers) a legend that perhaps evolved similarly to the Midgard Serpent of Norse legend around 500 AD. At Ragnarok the Midgard Serpent poisoned Thor and he died after taking 9 steps. So yes that's important to clarify "Cortez arrived a thousand years later".

Found another interesting link about the Newgrange Irish observatory. It appears this was the site of the first recorded astronomical observations with analysis of the Metonic cycle and Phi. This was thousands of years before the Greeks split art and science, must have been some amazing people with extraordinarily resonant minds studying the heavens. Makes you wonder if Human intelligence reached its peak millennia ago and we are now participating in a decline like the fall of the Aztec empire?

www.newgrange.eu...

If you are a thinking person it raises the question of why all this is still being hidden?
Does the argument that the general poulation would rather see Ceasers body displayed with its wounds rather than learn the math behind a new Calendar still hold? Maybe there are clues in Shakespeares Brutus?

Originally posted by Silcone Synapse
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Check out the near mythical "viking navigation sunstone lens."
Supposedly they refracted light in such a way as to give the vikings the ability to navigate the ocean using the suns position-nothing spectacular there I hear you say...
But these lenses allowed you to do this even with thick cloud or fog,thus becoming very useful,and very before their time.

cosmiclog.nbcnews.com...

The lenses are bi-aspheric and have excellent imaging properties. Their surface appears to be an oblate ellipse, while the surface nearest the eye approaches a parabola. They are so well produced that even computer optimisation has not been able to improve their performance

en.wikipedia.org...

Wow-even todays computers cannot improve upon their performance...How the heck did the vikings make these things?

Calm down man. the wikings ''sun stone'' is a type of cristal that is polarized. basically it's like the cheap plastic lenses you get in 3d glasses. if you point the plastic lens or a ''sun stone'' wtards the sky it shows the pattern of polarized light which can help you pinpoint the sun's location even when covered by very thick clouds. simple. the wikings didn't make these cristals, they just found them in the ground. mined them.

LOOK >>> ''http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunstone_(medieval) ''

Originally posted by Cauliflower
reply to post by Harte

 

Well Quetzalcoatl was described as a plumed Serpent(9 feathers) a legend that perhaps evolved similarly to the Midgard Serpent of Norse legend around 500 AD. At Ragnarok the Midgard Serpent poisoned Thor and he died after taking 9 steps. So yes that's important to clarify "Cortez arrived a thousand years later".

A feathered serpent is not a bearded man.

Originally posted by Cauliflower
Found another interesting link about the Newgrange Irish observatory. It appears this was the site of the first recorded astronomical observations with analysis of the Metonic cycle and Phi. This was thousands of years before the Greeks split art and science, must have been some amazing people with extraordinarily resonant minds studying the heavens. Makes you wonder if Human intelligence reached its peak millennia ago and we are now participating in a decline like the fall of the Aztec empire?

Show me their electric toothbrushes, then you might have a point.

Sorry, your link mentions nothing about pi or phi. You don't have to know phi to make a spiral, you know.

You are attributing far more to this site (and its builders) than the evidence we have would indicate.

Why? Are you Irish?

Originally posted by Cauliflower
If you are a thinking person it raises the question of why all this is still being hidden?

Hidden? You can visit the site yourself. What the heck do you think is being "hidden" here? Did you not link to a site about it? Have you searched the internet using the terms "Newgrange" and "phi?" If your fantasy here is being "hidden" by someone, then they are doing an extremely lousy job of it.

Harte

To go further into the "Hey, wait, Europeans were in the U.S. before columbus?!" side of things, there is a good H2 show that goes through a bunch of different things that show there were pre-columbian people here from across the pond.


Think of it this way... If you knew of an untouched land with mounds of copper, gold, wood, peace and good weather, with a coast that has warm tides and no taxes... would you tell the government/King, so that they could take it away from you? Or would you go to your "secret vacation spot away from it all"?

America Unearthed

reply to post by KilroyRock


I was lucky enough to have seen the slab when my brother and I were young. One of the books on oddities I bought back when our kids were little had a mention of the angel footprints in New Harmony, Indiana and our oldest son was fascinated to see a widely known object so close to where we live. Sadly, the people that own the property now have a tall fence up and have zero interest in dealing with strangers that have heard of it. I really can't blame them. Back when we saw it, people had treated the yard with no respect and the lawn had multiple paths of bare dirt and there was litter everywhere. The disrespectful morons of the world make it rough for everyone else.


Here's some info.

reply to post by Harte

Sorry, your link mentions nothing about pi or phi. You don't have to know phi to make a spiral, you know.

From the link second page Brennan states:

The measurement system that I found in the Boyne Valley and also in the Loughcrew Mountains divides a line into parts A and B in such a way that the ration of length A to length B was the same as the ration of the entire line to A. In other words, the line was divided into what is known as a golden ratio. This is one of the most famous of all irrational numbers. The supposed inventors of this were the ancient Green mathematicians, who called it the "extreme and mean ratio".

An Archimedian spiral is a design that might be carved by chance, but Brennan claims the golden ratio shows up in many other measurements he made. Doesn't look like cherry picking to me, but the question should be whether the phi ratio was selected for purely aesthetic reasons or was it used to calculate the way Archimedes solved equations using pure geometry (see Archimedes palimpsest). Remember they didn't have base 10 operators or even Roman numerals 5000 years ago.

There is some obvious fertility symbolism in these mounds, Polished phallus shaped stones about 25 CM long were buried near some of the entrances. The sun shines deep into the center chamber during the winter solstice and there is a womb like fallopian tube cross in the deep interior. The human gestation period being about 9 months in length would produce a birth near the fall equinox if conception occurred in late December.

Homers Odyssey was written about 800 BC another tale "tightly woven" around the metonic cycle. A patient wife awaiting the return of her husband from the Trojan war. Odysseus spent 7 years on an island fooling around with a nymph named Calypso before deciding to find his wife so I'm not sure but what the victorious hero thing was just another stage he went through. Anyways this is one of those really good legends that contain lots of math, logic and deeper meaning for those that haven't completely divorced their left brain.

classics.mit.edu...

I only mention this because the metonic cycle appears to be the obvious math link that evolved into the Antikythera navigational instrument.

It must be true....you can't put something on the internet that isn't true.

I read that on the internet.

People have no reason or compulsion to pull the wool over your eyes.

P.T. Barnum was wrong, there isn't a fool born every minute. There is a fool born every 24.5 seconds.

reply to post by smyleegrl


The real mystery of the Antikythera Mechanism is not that it existed but rather that only one such device has survived from antiquity. At least two similar devices are described in ancient texts, and other items of automata are described elsewhere in literature.

Cicero's De re publica, a 1st century BC philosophical dialogue, mentions two machines that some modern authors consider as some kind of planetarium or orrery, predicting the movements of the Sun, the Moon, and the five planets known at that time. They were both built by Archimedes and brought to Rome by the Roman general Marcus Claudius Marcellus after the death of Archimedes at the siege of Syracuse in 212 BC. Marcellus had great respect for Archimedes and one of these machines was the only item he kept from the siege (the second was offered to the temple of Virtus). The device was kept as a family heirloom, and Cicero has Philus (one of the participants in a conversation that Cicero imagined had taken place in a villa belonging to Scipio Aemilianus in the year 129 BC) saying that Gaius Sulpicius Gallus (consul with Marcellus' nephew in 166 BC, and credited by Pliny the Elder as the first Roman to have written a book explaining solar and lunar eclipses) gave both a "learned explanation" and a working demonstration of the device.

Pappus of Alexandria stated that Archimedes had written a now lost manuscript on the construction of these devices entitled On Sphere-Making.[36][37] The surviving texts from the Library of Alexandria describe many of his creations, some even containing simple drawings. One such device is his odometer, the exact model later used by the Romans to place their mile markers (described by Vitruvius, Heron of Alexandria and in the time of Emperor Commodus).[38] The drawings in the text appeared functional, but attempts to build them as pictured had failed. When the gears pictured, which had square teeth, were replaced with gears of the type in the Antikythera mechanism, which were angled, the device was perfectly functional.[39] Whether this is an example of a device created by Archimedes and described by texts lost in the burning of the Library of Alexandria, or if it is a device based on his discoveries, or if it has anything to do with him at all, is debatable.

en.wikipedia.org...

Rhodes was, evidently, considered a centre of production of mechanical devices, and yet this one is the only one to have survived. Of course, the learning that enabled these devices to be constructed passed into the Islamic world, and that is evidenced, but the manufacturing skills did not, those were not reunited until after the Eastern Crusades.

The Norse coin, given that it is said that when it was originally recovered was pierced so that it could be worn as a pendant or talisman, seems likely to have been traded onwards. The Norse trade settlement in Newfoundland at that time makes that scenario perfectly plausible.

The Romanesque head is a little more of a conundrum, but given that we now know that the Phoenicians and the Romans had trade posts on the Canaries and the Balearic Islands, and given the vulcan activity in the Atlantic, it seems probable that it was washed up as flotsam, possibly from a ship wreck, and was treasured as a unique item. As I read elsewhere, contact of cultures does not necessarily imply, direct human contact, which if given thought, makes it no less magical, and certainly must have been so for the individual who was lucky enough to find it on the shoreline, which is probably why they took it to the grave. Which makes those people just like us, as with the Norse coin, something unique, however mundane to the place it originated, it prized and lauded. Certainly, in both cases, the lack of any other items to support direct trade.

Originally posted by terriblyvexed
reply to post by Silcone Synapse

 

Yes!!! The foot prints is the biggest cover up of all time!

I believe in evolution, and from what I understand 700,000 years
is not nearly enough time for evolution, especially the human brain.

We've been here a long time lots of evidence to support this, yet science
won't budge.

Gotta ask, why the cover up? What technology is it they don't want us know about,
or do they just want to believe that with technology man can't be brought to
near extinction? Which is what I believe happened to the millions of year old
story of man.

maybe time travel will be possible in the future i dont know

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by Cauliflower

 

Interesting observation, to back up this hypothesis it is worth noting that Quetzalcoatl and Viracocha were bearded blond men (neither trait being native to the Amerindian people's)...

That myth dates to after bearded men (Spaniards) appeared in the New World, and not before, as fringers would try to have you believe.

Harte

Pacals tomb, man with beard in priest garb overlooking sarcophagus with quetzal bird head gear. I have close ups of this bearded figure but cant find any online to post. Pacals tomb has a great deal of strange and important information in it. See Forests of Kings David Freidel , Linda Schele.

pic

Originally posted by smyleegrl
the Maine Penny

in 1957, amateur archeologist Guy Mellgren unearthed an unusual coin in the central Maine coast. The coin was eventually determined to be a medieval Norse penny, found in a large Native American settlement at the site.

Alas...this too has a very reasonable explanation, as it was found in association with a Labrador Indian tool kit. So the best explanation is that it traveled south from a region known to be visited by the Norse. Though it dates to a post-L'Anse aux Meadows period, we are regularly finding additional evidence of Vikings in our north.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
Yes, the Norse discovered Newfoundland, Canada at around 1000 C.E. I don't think they traded with the natives, rather they slaughtered them, as seems to be the trend with European settlers.

Interestingly enough, this episode is noted in both the Norse Epics and Innuit oral tradition, and seems to have been based upon misunderstandings. Which is all to say, it was not a 'European trend', rather a cultural gap.

Here's a real-life example of a post-Columbian but pre-contact discovery that 'should not have been there'. Mind you, the chatter around Red Bay, Labrador, is that the Basque were likely there before Columbus...but I digress.
Curse of the Ax
Video

Bottom line, Smyleegrl, this thread shows the kind of curiosity that initiates investigation and discovery. Keep on poking around the subject. It fires the imagination, but don't forget to keep the ol' Bravo Sierra detector real handy. You'll need it.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


The idea that the coin made its way through trade is just as interesting!

This is why I love ATS. Folks like you, who KNOW this stuff...and can set me straight.

Thanks, my friend! Much appreciated!

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

The idea that the coin made its way through trade is just as interesting!
This is why I love ATS. Folks like you, who KNOW this stuff...and can set me straight.
Thanks, my friend! Much appreciated!

You know, you mention that it made it's way through trade, and I see that a lot. But I'm pretty sure that I read it was found in a sealed context along with other artifacts that pointed to Labrador. I'd prefer to think that, instead of traveling hand-to-hand in a trade network (which certainly existed), it made its way south in the toolkit of one individual. Somehow, it's a better story and fits the assemblage of artifacts.

Just as an aside, though I've been known to knock down a legend or two, that's not the object of my research. Like I tell my son...it's easy to break stuff. The challenge lies in finding a better story in the truth. Let's hope that works out when I destroy the creation myth of a local community, which will be the unfortunate fall-out from my latest project.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by Cauliflower

 

Interesting observation, to back up this hypothesis it is worth noting that Quetzalcoatl and Viracocha were bearded blond men (neither trait being native to the Amerindian people's)...

That myth dates to after bearded men (Spaniards) appeared in the New World, and not before, as fringers would try to have you believe.

Harte

Pacals tomb, man with beard in priest garb overlooking sarcophagus with quetzal bird head gear. I have close ups of this bearded figure but cant find any online to post. Pacals tomb has a great deal of strange and important information in it. See Forests of Kings David Freidel , Linda Schele.

I copied your pic to a word document and blew it up.

No beard.

That's part of the headdress.

Neither Viracocha nor Quetzlcoatl were known as bearded or blond.

I'm aware of the myth of a bearded white god. I'm also aware that there is no evidence of this myth prior to the arrival of the Spaniards.

Harte

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
You know, you mention that it made it's way through trade, and I see that a lot. But I'm pretty sure that I read it was found in a sealed context along with other artifacts that pointed to Labrador. I'd prefer to think that, instead of traveling hand-to-hand in a trade network (which certainly existed), it made its way south in the toolkit of one individual. Somehow, it's a better story and fits the assemblage of artifacts.

I like the idea of the 'toolkit'...but it does appear to have been an isolated find...still, it does appear, on further reading, that the contact was likely to have been direct, involving a single exchange perhaps.

What I am finding most interesting, the more that I read about it, is what, if anything, were the Norsemen trading? Much of the Viking expansionism has been put down to deforestation of their homeland, and the need for alternative timber sources as well as other resources. Is it possible that they were just using the area for shipbuilding? Or seasonal fishing? The evidence suggests that they didn't come in large numbers and the scarcity of artifacts further indicates that they didn't bring much with them to trade with. So it seems likely they went there, much as in elsewhere, to take, rather than to exchange resources.

Fascinating either way.

reply to post by Harte


I have close ups of the "bearded guy" taken early before they "cleaned" the place up so well. Maybe the guy with the beard is not the same one that I posted as that clearly looks like Pacal himself. As well I have noticed that the guy with beard is edited out of all collection of tomb pictures.

By the way you should see that place before and after clean up photos.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by Cauliflower

 

Interesting observation, to back up this hypothesis it is worth noting that Quetzalcoatl and Viracocha were bearded blond men (neither trait being native to the Amerindian people's)...

That myth dates to after bearded men (Spaniards) appeared in the New World, and not before, as fringers would try to have you believe.

Harte

How do we account for the "myth" being recorded by one of chroniclers with Cortez? He even says that the ambassador that montezuma sent out to met Cortez at the coast had a beard and looked so much like Cotez that the men called him Cortez II.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I'd prefer to think that, instead of traveling hand-to-hand in a trade network (which certainly existed), it made its way south in the toolkit of one individual. Somehow, it's a better story and fits the assemblage of artifacts.

I like the idea of the 'toolkit'...but it does appear to have been an isolated find...still, it does appear, on further reading, that the contact was likely to have been direct, involving a single exchange perhaps.

What I am finding most interesting, the more that I read about it, is what, if anything, were the Norsemen trading? ... it seems likely they went there, much as in elsewhere, to take, rather than to exchange resources.

I would guess that the coin was regarded as a sacred object and was carried by a Labrador native. The trade network I reference was indigenous. I doubt the Norse were trading unless for foodstuffs. And I agree that wood was a motive for their travels. L'Ans aux Meadows is figured to have been a 'dry dock' from which they could refurbish their ships...the waterfront lends itself to that purpose. They were smelting 'bog iron' on site for nails. A butternut found there also shows they had made their way south, so it is likely that it served as a base of operations. All in all, it is a great story of how the accepted paradigm will change under the weight of evidence.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by Cauliflower

 

Interesting observation, to back up this hypothesis it is worth noting that Quetzalcoatl and Viracocha were bearded blond men (neither trait being native to the Amerindian people's)...

That myth dates to after bearded men (Spaniards) appeared in the New World, and not before, as fringers would try to have you believe.

Harte

How do we account for the "myth" being recorded by one of chroniclers with Cortez? He even says that the ambassador that montezuma sent out to met Cortez at the coast had a beard and looked so much like Cotez that the men called him Cortez II.

With relative ease:

The first contact between the Maya and European explorers came in the early 16th century when a Spanish ship sailing from Panama to Santo Domingo was wrecked on the east coast of the Yucatán Peninsula in 1511.

wiki

In 1519, the ambitious Hernán Cortés set out from Cuba with 600 men on an expedition to the mainland in present-day Mexico.

source

Cortez wasn't their first rodeo.

Harte