Does the Universe Have a Purpose? feat. Neil deGrasse Tyson

reply to post by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

If the universe has no purpose, I'm not sure it follows that all our lives are meaningless and without purpose. Even if the purpose doesn't come from some deity, our lives can and I think do have purposes that we ourselves can, and sometimes do, define. It's just an internally defined purpose instead of an externally defined purpose.

True enough, my own life has a number of purposes and I've no doubt at all that everyone else's life is equally purposeful to them. What I was aiming at was the popular view that each of our lives is somehow a part of something greater. To be even clearer I was taking a pop at the notion that we are all souls on some sort of evolutionary, transcendental journey towards parts unknown.

*If* my suspicion that the universe is purposeless is accurate, our lives would only hold purpose, as you say, in an 'internally defined' way.

Agnostic, conflicted or open-minded? I honestly don't know.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

if the universe has no purpose, since we are part of the universe, the we also don't have purpose. Not much more to say.

Any purpose that an individual creates in their mind, and "believes in", becomes just that, a relativistic belief system that is different based on each person, and yet at the end, just that, "a "belief", illusion, BS, living in a delusional fantasy world.

To imply that God exist or does not today, is a belief, changing that would require a way to test reality as a whole. Changing that would require evidence that one I all knowing and so in respect to logic, without a test
of all reality there is really no way to know. One can argue that the argument of God is less simple, with
respect to that idea that it all happened purely by chance.

The problem with that argument is that as much as atheist would like to cite the idea that pure chance is much simpler it is not. Such a conclusion is fraught with incredible difficulties and as much as atheist would like to claim such issues have no clear resolution any time soon.

Lets discuss the matter of Dear Death Experiences.....

A number of recent scientific studies carried out by independent researchers have demonstrated that 10-20 per cent of people who go through cardiac arrest and clinical death report lucid, well structured thought processes, reasoning, memories and sometimes detailed recall of events during their encounter with death.

Source

After about 3 minutes and based upon not only materialist models but also in relation to our current understanding of biology? A person who heart has failed cannot possibly have any experiences that
would fall under the category of being conscious.

This includes not only thinking as we general understand it, but also dreams or even hallucination's .

So how is it possible for a person to have detailed memories of invents unrelated to there own care?


When the heart stops working, the brain also stops working so in reality there is no specific explanation for this phenomenon, when considering biology as we commonly understand it. CPR even if one breaks the ribs in no
way accounts for the 80 beats per minute needed to sustain a conscious human.


So when it comes to feeding the brain, again not enough to support any type of conscious thought. Despite that fact humans after having gone into cardiac arrest and are revived remember specific details as to event related to other patients, unrelated to their care.

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Kashai
When the heart stops working, the brain also stops working

False.
Therefore so are a lot of your other statements and assumptions.
The brain doesn't work well when it's deprived of oxygen, as as happens when the heart stops beating, but it's false to say it stops working. See the link on NDEs I posted near the bottom of page 2 of this thread.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Kashai
When the heart stops working, the brain also stops working

False.
Therefore so are a lot of your other statements and assumptions.
The brain doesn't work well when it's deprived of oxygen, as as happens when the heart stops beating, but it's false to say it stops working. See the link on NDEs I posted near the bottom of page 2 of this thread.

The heart is not only a pump it also charges and discharges electricity, so where exactly does this energy go????

When the heart stops beating it stops working and I mean honestly even individual heart cells beat and stop doing so when the heart as a whole stop beating. Once one get past 3 minutes after the heart stops what evidence do you have that the brain continues to functions enough to have experiences???

You are the one who is false....

Originally posted by Kashai
Once one get past 3 minutes after the heart stops what evidence do you have that the brain continues to functions enough to have experiences???

You just made my point. You didn't say anything before about a 3 minute difference, and the 3 minutes is not exactly proven either, is it?

Here is a reply from someone who claims he learned this in medical school and it doesn't exactly match your 3 minute answer:

Does the brain flatline during cardiac arrest?

First, you are referring to cardiac arrest. That is, when the heart stops pumping blood, period. So, no blood to the brain. Next, by referring to a flatlining brain, I'm assuming you mean that there are no measurable electrical impulses by EEG (if you were to monitor the brain during cardiac arrest). So, your real question is how long will the brain function without oxygen.

The answer depends so many conditions (ambient temperature being one of them). But, basically, you have about 6 minutes before brain damage starts to occurs. An EEG would show waves at that point. At some point the damage will destroy most of the higher functions of the brain, but the brainstem will still function. But, generally speaking, after about 11 minutes, all brain functions will cease. There might be some residual activity on the EEG (as there are residual wave on an EKG, long after the heart stops beating), but for all intents and purposes, the person is dead.

Hope that helps.
Source(s):
Medical School.

Of course the temperature variable he mentions might extend that time greatly, to hours or days if the temperature is low enough.

So whether the differential is 3, 6, 11, 60 minutes or longer, my point was there is a differential, so they don't happen at the same time. You at least agree with the 3 minutes.

That answer also touches on electrical activity in the heart after the heart stops beating, which is something you asked about.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Kashai
Once one get past 3 minutes after the heart stops what evidence do you have that the brain continues to functions enough to have experiences???

You just made my point. You didn't say anything before about a 3 minute difference, and the 3 minutes is not exactly proven either, is it?

Actually there is one way to prove it, it begins by you holding your breath.

Apparently NDE's occur in 20% of the population and as it I apparent there are at least 10 skeptics in this forum, all we then need is a volunteer with pillow just in case any of you wimp out

Guys and Gals I am sure some of you are probably pissed of that I brought of the issue of Scientist having the potential of being Sociopathic, but in all sincerity if it were not for that issue Mary Shelly would not be a household name.


Dude honestly to suggest that I am wrong about everything is in reality, more about you and less about me

Based upon my experiences you guys have a snowballs chance in hell to convince me that you know what you are talking about in relation to skeptical conclusions being absolute.

Get over it and move on.

Of course I will respect your beliefs unless you disrespect mine.

Any thoughts?

i believe the purpose of the universe is to kill you!

it will not kill the "I", but it will kill the "you".

the universe is projected by the mind and is contained within your consciousness. we hug and kiss its spokes of agony until we tire of it and reach a stage of mental maturity where the non-local consciousness takes over and the personality(you)ceases to exist. "I" stops identifying with the body/mind complex and realizes the eternal light which it truly really is. the slightest taste of this "state" or pure existence will leave you with an incredible yearning to return to it due to its real and silent and incredibly peaceful "isness". i think dominicus touches on it, and that was lovely. but on death i would disagree. death does not neccessarily reveal its secrets unless identitication with the mind has been discarded. but a great thread, which i'll return to finish later and enjoy the banter between some.

Try this one...

www.youtube.com...

Any thoughts?