N. Korea loads two medium-range missiles on mobile launchers

reply to post by Gazrok


I was talking in U2U about the whole mess. I can see China making a sudden move to get rid of the DPRK government (if the DPRK does launch an attack), and while the rest of the world sits there going "Wha?" China removes the government and either negotiates a settlement with the ROK (including a buffer zone like you suggested) or sets up a satellite state government, and we go back to pretty much status quo.

China sees the long game, so it wouldn't surprise me if they had thought of something along those lines.

USA is not in the biz of conquest, after Phillippines was handed back to the Filipinoes back in the early 1930s. Even after booting out imperial japan in '45, governance was still handed back to the Filipinoes.

When N.Korea is freed from tyranny, if actions are forced upon the west and S.Korea by the N.Korean regime whom will be eliminated, the choice of governance will be decided by the Korean People.

S.Korea too is not in the biz of conquest. Like USA, it only seeks for peace, trade and stability so that all may flourish, as it had been for the past decades after USA booted Imperial Japan out of Asia in '45.

But most critical of all, will be stability in N.Korea and economic growth. It will not happen overnight, but with patience and support from the world's community, it can and will be done.

China prefers and wants N.Korea to be a buffer state against presumed western imperialism. It is only misguided fear, but if it can help end confrontations, USA can easily pull out of N.Korea, so too S.Korea, as the N.Korean masses will need MASSIVE fundings to be elevated to an economic sustainable status. China has the funds to exploit the wealth that lays under N.Korea, and would be welcomed to do do.

As long as there is trade and stability, none will lose out, for N.Koreans, regardless if they freely and given education to intelligently chose their leaders, to sing and pledge allegience to whatever flags - are CONSUMERS one day of our world's products.

It is trade and stability that will progress and evolve mankind. N.Korea's, and even soon Iran's nuclear brinkmanship, will only hurt and regress mankind, and must be seriously dealt with. Wars are not the answer, but finding common grounds to live and let live is a solution.

Originally posted by LastStarfighter
Wake up. The west is just antagonizing them into this so they have the pre-text to do a stimulus for the military industrial complex.

Dude .. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ... and sometimes a nutter who is in charge of a country is just a nutter. The N. Korea leader is a nutter. It's just that simple. I have no doubt that the leadership of China is having all sorts of meetings trying to figure out what to do about 'their' N. Korea leader. A war coming out of N. Korea would HURT the Chinese financially .. not help it.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Not to mention thousands of refugees trying to cross the Chinese boarder. They definitely don't want THAT.

To Zaphod:

China removes the government and either negotiates a settlement with the ROK (including a buffer zone like you suggested) or sets up a satellite state government, and we go back to pretty much status quo.

I'd be ok with that.

Originally posted by simples
If N Korea launch these two missiles America WILL NOT retaliate with nukes! What planet are some people on? If they were to launch nukes then maby the nukers might become the nuked but two stupid normal missiles is not going to cause a nuclear war.

Who is talking about US reacting with nukes? In order to reach the point of using nukes, some serious damage or offense from the side of NK would cause it, Otherwise, a launch of missiles even in the Ocean and if US reply by taking the missiles down, NK will point figure and say that the US started it first.

The game of NK so far is to provoke any of its two enemies to strike first, so that in the end of a war, the enemies are pointed as initiatiors and aggressors. It is certain that all these news are provocations.

But if they did launch missiles that would be taken down via fire, then that would initiate a battle - as you said from US side, not using nukes, just a battle against NK using some of their nuke weapons if strong enough.

reply to post by Gazrok


I think that is why China has been moving troops to the border, to stop the influx of refugees if and when war starts.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

I an interesting line of thought, but how would he know that they cannot be reeducated or even educated(!)? Perhaps he was educated at one time but lost his mind and now has given up. But if he has not lost his mind, I think it's presumptuous to assume that the regime cannot be reformed.

How is it sane to BELIEVE that others cannot be reformed or redeemed?

Hitler believed that the Jews were a scar on the world and needed to die, for example.

Education is not an excuse whether somebody was right or wrong. At the end of the day, people must believe one or the other. Either there's a chance to be reformed or there's not.

There's a blurry line between insanity and belief too.

I do not praise people killing others based on a belief. I can only praise it WHEN THEY'RE RIGHT. But the only way to know they're right is after the fact when most everyone agrees.

The way I see history is that it's hit and miss. When leaders were right they were praised and when they were wrong they were condemned. Events are only 20/20 in hindsight. Thus, I find it very difficult to preempt the present moment by praising the actions of those not yet scrutinized.

This is an even more important discussion when you consider that national leadership, historically, is either representative and/or some form of dictatorship. So whatever comes out of the mouths of our leaders is only a shoddy mirror of what actually exists in the minds of the populace. What this means is that you cannot fully expect a leadership to respect and represent their populace.

Don't try to define current events too much. It's much too murky.

reply to post by Gazrok


That's been the major sticking point for China in the last few years, the refugee problem.

Yeah, I'd be ok with China sticking their nose in and settling this mess too. Let's get this over with one way or the other. My personal bet is that we have about 10-14 days before we either see someone back down, or it kicks off. They're moving the SBX out of Hawaii on the Blue Marlin, and THAAD to Guam. The THAAD deployment is talking a couple of weeks minimum, and the Blue Marlin will take about 10 days to get to the Japan area (she left last week).

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by LastStarfighter
Wake up. The west is just antagonizing them into this so they have the pre-text to do a stimulus for the military industrial complex.

Dude .. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ... and sometimes a nutter who is in charge of a country is just a nutter. The N. Korea leader is a nutter. It's just that simple. I have no doubt that the leadership of China is having all sorts of meetings trying to figure out what to do about 'their' N. Korea leader. A war coming out of N. Korea would HURT the Chinese financially .. not help it.

Well said.

You also have to ask yourself where this will go if left unchecked. Their new leader is only 29 and could potentially be be leader for the next 50 years (LOL - not likely)....he's been on the job for, what, 15 months? Already he's driven the region to the brink of war and forced their closest ally, China, to vote for sanctions against them at the UNSC! I don't think anybody wants this joker in office for any length of time.

His father was bad enough.......but I'm reminded of the old cliche "better the devil you know....".

I'm curious if NKorea has any military ships.

Their weapons delivery technology could considerably increase the distance a ship could safely fire those missiles (if, they are even capable of delivering a nuke) at the continental US.

Certainly, the US and the world seem to take these people pretty seriously - I hope it isn't simply for the purpose of boosting the Military Industrial Complex's output.... and the idea that the quake seismograph can tell if it is a nuclear blast vs. a regular earthquake, seems to back the idea that they are already aware of NKorea's nuclear capabilities, when NK had it's first demo.

An EMP is something that a nuke delivers if (even a very low yield nuke) it is exploded at a height of a few hundred kilometres/miles (eg: 250miles). Source: en.wikipedia.org...

EMPs from a low yield nuke can fry the entire electrical system in most if not all of North America. We are interconnected by failsafe powergrids across the US and Canada. That is why some years ago a failure of a nuclear plant to produce power in the US, knocked out power systems in the Eastern US and Canada as well (Ontario more specifically).

As for the economic situation. It is worsening everywhere. This would lead to smaller shares for NKorea, until they were possibly incensed beyond repair. Certainly, internal pressure could force political action against other countries.

Not that NKorea would still be on a geographical map, whether they started things or not.... but will they get to the point of feeling that they have nothing left to lose?

It is inconceivable that a nuclear weapon might be exploded above South Korea for an EMP effect, or NKorea for that matter - just because the area which an nuclear EMP would cover, could cause both sides enormous trouble.... So, they are unlikely to blast a nuclear EMP anywhere near the peninsula - neither side that is.

But, they might directly hit the peninsula with a nuke (either side), which will have very limited EMP penetration - but more precise geographically local damage - or alternatively just attack with a barrage of conventional weapons - to keep the land useable and intact.

reply to post by sensibleSenseless


They have mostly patrol craft type ships. They call them destroyers or something along those lines, but they're all pretty small. They're considered a "green water navy" and generally anything beyond about 50 miles out is beyond their capabilities.

So if NK launches a single test missile, do we shoot it down or let it land in the ocean? Should we give Kim an out?

reply to post by IndianaJoe


Just jam it or ABL it and let them think it was a "failure", so that the world laughs at him....

That's my vote.

reply to post by Gazrok


ABL is in the Boneyard though. They tried to bring it back, but it's a dead program. The COIL was too expensive, and didn't give them the range they thought it would. They would have had to be flying 747s over hostile territory to hit a missile in the boost phase.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13

Originally posted by Donahue
the us probably wants a war. there's always money in war. .

doesn't seem logical for the US but to each their own evaluations. Seems the US is there to Observes as is CHINA. RUSSIA quiet

interesting observers.

If the US doesn't want a war why are they conducting yet another military exercise with the South Koreans. I think people should know that it is the US that has created this crisis. Every time the US conducts an exercise against North Korea the North tells them not to do it with no response. I think the North Koreans have had enough of the belligerent moves of the United States and have decided to "settle accounts".

reply to post by Adaluncatif


So we're not allowed to exercise with our allies because we might upset someone? What next? But it's ok for Russia to fly nuclear capable bombers over US territory, even though we might say stop right? Because that's someone else going against the US.

reply to post by Zaphod58


That's the official word, yeah...(boneyard). However, I know it was successful in many tests, and this was in the 80's, so I imagine we have a more covert and much more miniaturized version by now. I'm not prohibited by OPSEC but by my own patriotism, but I know we've got something that evolved from that program. I don't know the modern name for it, but I know the beam isn't visible, and it can be mounted easily in a B-1B (and likely a B-2). and this was in the late 90's.

To another:

I think the North Koreans have had enough of the belligerent moves of the United States and have decided to "settle accounts".

You mean, "close their account"?

reply to post by Gazrok


There was a laser tested on an NKC-135 in the 70s/80s, but COIL was a vastly up powered version (and a different fuel source as well). It was successful in several tests, but they couldn't get the beam to go out to a useful range. At the range they were able to reach (with COIL or any other laser), the only way to hit a missile boosting is at ranges that would put the firing aircraft within SAM range of the country launching the missile.

There are other lasers out there, that will fit into a C-130, and probably a B-1 or B-2, but they "aren't ready for primetime" quite yet, and they aren't anti-ICBM capable. Again, you have a serious range issue with them. You need to find a way to jack the power up higher than they have been able to to date on the ones used in the anti-ICBM field.

reply to post by Zaphod58


As I understand it, that was the need to base it in a stealth bomber, so that even in SAM range, they could knock it out without detection, and even have a chance at doing at a higher altitude. As for knowledge, I know that a targeting and guidance system was designed and produced for it. Whether or not it's primetime, is anyone's guess, but with the time and advances just in the private sector, we'd be fools if it wasn't.

One of the most annoying things I read in the UK newspapers today was the claim made by David Cameron yesterday that North Korea could attack Britain.

The Prime Minister said he knows Communist dictator Kim Jong-un has access to missiles that can hit the UK.

Even though North Korea has nothing in their arsenal that can reach the UK, and China, Russia, and the US are not about to supply long range missiles to Kim Jong-un, this pillock decides to shoot his mouth off anyway.

The Independent

David Cameron provoked surprise today when he claimed that North Korea now possessed the capability to launch a nuclear strike against Britain.

David Cameron is clearly not fit for office and should be step down immediately.