God and evolotion

reply to post by OldThinker


from OT's reference link:

It’s important to understand that sin was imputed to Him, but He did not inherit it from Adam.

What about Eve? I don't understand how he was absolved from inheriting sin (a concept I dislike strongly) from adam and eve.

Some interesting thoughts on this here... www.allaboutcreation.org...

“Original Sin” and its relation to evolutionary theory was discussed by an outspoken evolutionist, Richard Bozarth, in the American Atheist magazine. The following excerpts come from “The Meaning of Evolution” (September 1979, p. 30):

""Christianity is - must be! - totally committed to the special creation as described in Genesis, and Christianity must fight with its full might against the theory of evolution. And here is why.

In Romans 5:12, we read that “sin entered the world through one man, and through sin - death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.”

The whole justification of Jesus' life and death is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam's fall into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None.

Even a high school student knows enough about evolution to know that nowhere in the evolutionary description of our origins does there appear an Adam or an Eve or an Eden or a forbidden fruit. Evolution means a development from one form to the next to meet the ever-changing challenges from an ever-changing nature. There is no fall from a previous state of sublime perfection.

Without Adam, without the original sin, Jesus Christ is reduced to a man with a mission on a wrong planet!"

and...

“Original Sin” is one of the core theological reasons that a Christian cannot embrace the theory of evolution. Regardless of the scientific issues that now plague the evolutionary belief system, the whole message of Christianity starts with mankind’s fall from paradise into death through Adam’s sin. With evolution, we envision millions and millions of years of death, decay and disease before Adam even came on the scene. However, this picture is not consistent with the “very good” earth created by God. More importantly, as one can thoroughly investigate, death before sin is theologically inconsistent with the rest of Christian doctrine.

OT out

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by OldThinker

 

from OT's reference link:

It’s important to understand that sin was imputed to Him, but He did not inherit it from Adam.

What about Eve? I don't understand how he was absolved from inheriting sin (a concept I dislike strongly) from adam and eve.

Good question...got to go back to work...I'll work on it later, ok?

Originally posted by OldThinker

Even a high school student knows enough about evolution to know that nowhere in the evolutionary description of our origins does there appear an Adam or an Eve or an Eden or a forbidden fruit.

i would disagree DNA shows that we do have an ADAM and an EVE of sorts

our dna shows we all have 1 common female ancestor and 1 common male ancestor the only problem is that adam and eve were many thousands of years apart with eve comming first

i dont know where evil apples got involved in the whole affair though ... our dna is closer to potatoes then apples*

(*and yes i know it says fruit not apples but apples are the most commonly associated, i was gonna say banana as that was teh creationists favorite proof of god but evil banana's and sex just seemed like it might get out of hand on the giggle-o-meter)

[edit on 11/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by OldThinker


k see you later OT.

nice to see ya again!

reply to post by noobfun


wow noob! thats facinating... I knew of evolutionary bottlenecks, but I never knew that the bottlenecks got so narrow at times.

I'll have to read up on this... Its amazing to consider how many times we came within a smidgen of extinction.

p.s. I'm actually amazed that the spell checker includes the word smidgen

reply to post by nj2day
spell checker? where? what?

who stole mine?

en.wikipedia.org... theres Adam for 60,000 years ago

en.wikipedia.org... from around 140,000 years ago

should give you a bunch of links at the bottom to go hunting for more scientific type info ^_^

i did search for an ancestral evil apple's but the only evil apple was the modern ipod making variety

stupid double post





[edit on 11/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by noobfun


I'm using google chrome. When i type it spell checks for me and puts teh squigglie red line under the word...

anyway, thanks for the info Noob! I gots some reading now

After all I've heard and read through my years I'm convinced that every so often a civilization is destroyed as well as it's people animal's etc,then it stars over again,some of these artifacts that have been found dated millions of years ago,are comparable to things we have today,and why they are finding what appears as a once civilization under the oceans,I think we are just one of a bunch of other people existing here on earth

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
,some of these artifacts that have been found dated millions of years ago,are comparable to things we have today,and why they are finding what appears as a once civilization under the oceans,I think we are just one of a bunch of other people existing here on earth

what artifacts???

what civilisation under the water? the japanese temple type thing or?

why do i get the feeling a bunch of youtube videos full of speculation and bad guess work and not a whole lot of evidence are gona appear ... please prove my worse fears wrong

Hey there OT

Originally posted by OldThinker

In Romans 5:12, we read that “sin entered the world through one man, and through sin - death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.”

Ok then ... So what about these passages:

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

According to these passages, the forgiveness of sins is on an individual basis only.

Let's look at Orthodox Christianity and it's views on "original sin"?

Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christianity never held that guilt is inherited, and began repudiating this idea once they learned of it. They teach that we inherit a corrupted or damaged human nature in which the tendency to do bad is greater, but that each person is only guilty of their own sins.

So we can see that it can be argued that Christianity actually sees the redemption of sin as a challenge on an individual basis with no consideration given to the sins of an individuals ancestors.

The whole justification of Jesus' life and death is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam's fall into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly.

From the examples above, we can now see that the story and message of Jesus Christ has no need of the idea of "original sin" to be valid.

Therefore Christianity has no need to take a literal interpretation of Gensis.

Therefore Evolution and Christianity have no need for conflict.

""Christianity is - must be! - totally committed to the special creation as described in Genesis, and Christianity must fight with its full might against the theory of evolution.

I have always thought that the mission of Jesus and the Golden rule of Christianity was:

Matthew, chapter 7 verse 12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Fundamental Christians should spend more time in following this than trying to fight against the theory of evolution ... an action which goes directly against the teachings of their master!

reply to post by Horza




Hi there Horza too!

What exactly does some freakin' old old OT passages have to do with me/you/2008? Are the references relevant today? FREAKIN'NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Your lumping-together is lazy man.......


Those verses are irrelevant bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

= = =

pause...

Yes, the golden rule is a great thing...how are you doing with that? I'm working on it...thank you for the reminder...good job.

OT's not a fundi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I love them, because they are sincere....

Here's a challenge....look at the fruit of lives over 20 yrs....a fundi vs. a non-fundi...ok?

Freakin' no comparison....you WILL see....those literal, verbal, plenary, inspiration kinda-Christians are GOOD people...with STAYING-POWER...for good...


Who would you rather meet in a dark-alley alone? A fundi? of a Non-believer? unargue-able man!!!!!

OT not an idiot!!!!!!

OT is (mostly) proven over-time!!!!!


I'm not here (on ATS) to win a short-term argument....

GIVE THIS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!! You/all will see....if you are 'looking?'

Originally posted by OldThinker

What exactly does some freakin' old old OT passages have to do with me/you/2008? Are the references relevant today? FREAKIN'NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Your lumping-together is lazy man.......

Those verses are irrelevant bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha! ... good try OT ... but ...

If some "freakin' old old OT passages" are irrelevant then some "freakin' old old NT passages" are irrelevant as well.

If you want to use some parts of the OT, e.g. Adam and Eve and the "original sin" then you have to use all of the OT.

Picking and choosing parts to suit your argument but not allowing others to pick and choose is not exactly fair mate ... and I know you are a fair guy OT ... so ... be fair ...

Yes, the golden rule is a great thing...how are you doing with that? I'm working on it...thank you for the reminder...good job.
[/quote[

Hey! ... I hope you are not suggesting that I am a hypocrite?

OT's not a fundi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I love them, because they are sincere....

Here's a challenge....look at the fruit of lives over 20 yrs....a fundi vs. a non-fundi...ok?

Freakin' no comparison....you WILL see....those literal, verbal, plenary, inspiration kinda-Christians are GOOD people...with STAYING-POWER...for good...

I totally disagree ... fundamentalism is the cause of the worlds problems at the moment.

And as far as fundi Christians go, this is a group of people that believes and actively promotes:

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan as a holy religious war that should be waged in the name of god;
Denying people with different lifestyle choices the same freedom and rights as they have;
The way to salvation is through the destruction of a nation.

This is not a good, just and fair group of people.

OT not an idiot!!!!!!

I'm not here (on ATS) to win a short-term argument....

Would never call you an idiot OT ...

Agreed ... this is going to be a long term thang ... years and years of fun to be had for us all!

reply to post by Horza


Scripture?

Please study the difference between interpretation and application...

A TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEXT...

Smile!

OT

I totally disagree ... fundamentalism is the cause of the worlds problems at the moment.

And as far as fundi Christians go, this is a group of people that believes and actively promotes:

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan as a holy religious war that should be waged in the name of god;
Denying people with different lifestyle choices the same freedom and rights as they have;
The way to salvation is through the destruction of a nation.

This is not a good, just and fair group of people.

No…times are a’changing….

See… www.sojo.net...
And… www.tonycampolo.org...

There are plenty of us conservatives with higher priorities than war!

Evolution and Creationism conflict, not Theism. To say, 'Evolution is how we came to be' and saying 'God did it' are polar opposites. This is the case for the Judeo-Christian philosophy, which often entitles Christians to disbelieve Evolution. If you agree with evolution, it's hard to believe in Adam & Eve, but Adam & Eve is the word of God, and you can't really question that now can you?

(I can...because he so fortunately made me with free will, according to you folks...and by you folks I mean religious folks, usually Judeo-Christians.)

I got an other question is evolution really important.

Dose it really Mather what we evolved from.

Don't we already know who we are and what we are doing.

Do you think you will change that radical before you die of old age.

Do you think your grand grand children and their grand children will be shaped Any different then what we are to day. I dont think so. But they will wear different style of clothing and appear different. But they will still be human.

But time will change technology, but we shouldn't compare technology to human evolution. It won't change the way we are shaped but it will change the way we think and live our lives.

If we lose our technology because of a disaster or some other event we would still be humans or more like savages like we once where depending on have bad things get. Only the roles of surviving would change we would still be the same shape.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Here's one to chew on...

If a hypothetical doctor examined Adam and Eve...on day two of their existence...and he examined them...not knowing they were 'created' the day before...he'd probably say they were 20 something years old/mature, because of the development he observed, right?

Could it be the universe was 'created' the same way? With apparent age?

I don't know, but it's something to think about...?

OT

Now you are thinking, I see you are awakening.

But there is much more to ask.

Keep asking and you shall find what you are not expecting.

There is in a Christian writing that says Quote:-

Jesus said,

"Let him
who seeks
continue seeking
until he finds.
When he finds,
he will become troubled.
When he becomes troubled,
he will be astonished
and he will rule over The All."


And....

Quote:-

Jesus said,

It is I
who Am THE LIGHT
which is above them all.
It is I who Am The All.

?????????????????????????

Originally posted by noobfun
i would disagree DNA shows that we do have an ADAM and an EVE of sorts
our dna shows we all have 1 common female ancestor and 1 common male ancestor the only problem is that adam and eve were many thousands of years apart with eve comming first

i dont know where evil apples got involved in the whole affair though ... our dna is closer to potatoes then apples*

(*and yes i know it says fruit not apples but apples are the most commonly associated, i was gonna say banana as that was teh creationists favorite proof of god but evil banana's and sex just seemed like it might get out of hand on the giggle-o-meter)

[edit on 11/11/08 by noobfun]

DNA shows we had 1 female ancestor and 1 male ancestor? Yea I bet we did have an ancestor and that ancestor was a human.~ Thousands of years apart, wiith eve first? I am guessing you are talking about asexual reproduction, which is in essence making a copy of one's self. Now asexual reproduction is highly productive and a lot easier than sexual reproduction, so why would this 'eve' work thousands of years to create a male organism so that they could produce offspring? It would have been much better off just making more copies of iteself. Lets consider mutations, just for the fun of it.

Mutations are primarily permanent changes in the DNA strand. DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) is the information storage unit for all organisms, including humans, cats and dogs. In humans, the DNA consists of about 3 billion base pairs. The DNA is made of two strands and forms a double helix. In sexual reproduction, one set of chromosomes (large segments of DNA) comes from the mother and one set from the father. In asexual reproduction, the DNA is copied whole and then passed along when the organism splits. Lets take an ameba:

For molecules-to-man evolution to happen, there needs to be a gain in new information within the organism’s genetic material. For instance, for a single-celled organism, such as an ameba, to evolve into something like a cow, new information (not random base pairs, but complex and ordered DNA) would need to develop over time that would code for ears, lungs, brain, legs, etc.

If an ameba were to make a change like this, the DNA would need to mutate new information. (Currently, an ameba has limited genetic information, such as the information for protoplasm.) This increase of new information would need to continue in order for a heart, kidneys, etc. to develop. If a DNA strand gets larger due to a mutation, but the sequence doesn’t code for anything (e.g., it doesn’t contain information for working lungs, heart, etc.), then the amount of DNA added is useless and would be more of a hindrance than a help. A Mutation in DNA: Lets take KIDNEY-asexual reproduction-KIDNEY-asexual-KIDNEY-asexual and a mutation-KIDNYE- No information was added, information was just mixed up, mutations do not add new genetic information, it only scrambles up the existing information.

But the 'eve' could simply just create another one of itself, why go through all this work to make a human, or a male, or a leaf, or an apple? Why create more competition for itself?

God created everything, horses produce horses and humans produce humans. A million years from now Humans will continue to make humans and dogs will produce dogs. I will not deny that variation happens, because it does, but all variation is limited. A poodle and a great dane could make a lab, simply because God created genetics and gave animals genetics to vary, but yes that variation is limited. Take computer program, lets call this program PEN. Now PEN can only work on Windows Vista, not windows XP or Mac. But a man named Ted can alter some of the software on PEN and make it work with windows XP, but he will never be able to alter it far enough to work on the Mac. Why? Because Windows Vista and Windows XP are the same KIND.

Thanks For Reading,
~TheMythLives