A question about the Law

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So now they were saved by the Law...

If following the Law gave them blessings then how is that any different from being saved?

There would have been some, if ever so slight, benefit to the world in general, as an example of people who actually believed in God, even if they were going about it in the wrong way, wanting the blessings only for themselves.
I think the answer to your question may be found in PLA's post:

"He set them apart to be an example to the rest of the world."

They didn't think of salvation like we do today, a personal salvation of life in another world after death, but of a corporate salvation of this earthly kingdom.

Originally posted by occrest
Because Christians are not followers of the Torah, but followers of the traditions of men. The ignore the very words of the one they say is their messiah. They have even changed his name, and erased the name of his Father from their book. Yet it is by His name that we are saved.

Isaiah 29:13

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

LOLwut. We're not jews. Not one gentile was present at Mt Sinai when the law was given by Moses. For someone who likes to quote Isaiah you seem to miss all the parts dealing with the gentiles.

You also seem to forget the the Israelites broke the law before Moses even came off Mt. Sinai with it and the Lord was going to destroy them but he relented for his name's sake.

Try reading Isaiah 49, while you're at it try reading Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and Galatians 3, particularly the part about "cursed is he who hangs on a tree" and how we're not under the curse of the law because Jesus became the curse for us so now we're under him. The law is perfect, no man born into sin can keep the law flawlessly, it's not possible and that's another issue Galatians 3 addresses.

So, those who follow the traditions of men are the jews because they reject God's plan for salvations that has been prophecied of since Genesis 3, Genesis 22, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, Zechariah 12 and a host of many more so there, i'm not a christian who doesn't study Torah. I read the Teaching every day until my eyes dry out.

reply to post by jmdewey60


So the Hebrews were the exception when it came to salvation? What of the non-Hebrews? Were they sent to burn forever?

If God set them apart then why couldn't he have made everyone a part of the club? Does god play favorites or does he love everyone equally? Damning everyone but a select few to hell doesn't sound very fair in my opinion.

Now you claim to know how they thought of salvation? Come on, anyone can make something up to support their case.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Not one gentile was present at Mt Sinai when the law was given by Moses.

LOL, wut?
As many as half of them would have been "gentiles" at the foot of Sinai.
There were a lot of Egyptians who went along with the Israelites, wanting to flee the same oppressive government and to go to a better place that they were convinced that the Israelites were going to.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Were they sent to burn forever?

Metaphorically, in the "new world" of Revelation, there isn't 'bad people' and the burning symbolizes their being 'purified' from the earth.

If God set them apart then why couldn't he have made everyone a part of the club?

Judea had a temple that, thanks to King Herod, was the greatest by far on Earth, or rather, the Earth known in the Roman world, of that time.
It had more people going to it than any other single temple in the world.
Because of those things, the Bible of that temple cult was of great interest to anyone in that world.
God, being practical, if nothing else, took advantage of that situation, piggybacking on that notoriety to launch His own religion through His son, born into the tribe of that cult, and putting all that history and connections to good use.
So, thanks to that, they were blessed in advance, whether they deserved it or not.

Now you claim to know how they thought of salvation? Come on, anyone can make something up to support their case.

That comes from reading very serious academic books, not from "making things up".

reply to post by jmdewey60


So God, who is infinitely powerful, thought it was a better idea to set apart a few people to be his chosen ones instead of making all people his chosen ones?

He could just as easily given every single person in the world a true revelation of his existence, yet he thought that was too big of a job apparently. Why would god need to "piggyback" any kind of man made construct?

Instead of revealing himself to everyone, god decides to select a very small group of people in the middle of the desert 3,000 years ago to be his "chosen" ones. He then tells them to go around spreading his word that he could have easily spread himself, all while telling them to pillage and murder anyone who rejects his army of Hebrews bringing death to the door.

Does that sound about right? How could an entity with infinite intelligence create such a horrible, imperfect, and inefficient plan to spread his word?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

He could just as easily given every single person in the world a true revelation of his existence, yet he thought that was too big of a job apparently.

I suppose you mean things like the parting of the Red Sea.
We don't know if that really happened.
Now it says that it did, in their Bible.
I don't think it is especially useful to judge God based on some extravagant story telling in some people's religious story book.
Really.
Can you be just a tiny bit sceptical in a useful sort of way?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
That to me would be "identifying with the body-mind". There is nothing wrong with that and is why we exist, or at least why we exist in a material physical universe.

I am not meaning to imply anything body-negative nor did I think Jesus was teaching anything body-negative. When Jesus spoke of being born to here from above he was teaching that to live this life fully, one must first be reborn from the Divine Spirit Light Above. He was pointing out that one's life on earth must be lightened by adherence in the Light of God - otherwise such a life is of darkness.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Getting evil out of the equation is a commendable pursuit. Wanting to be "dead" seems completely worthless to me and is against the principle of what is good for everyone.
In that quote is the word, life:

". . . whoever lives by believing in me . . ."

a way of life, not death.

Exactly. I am not sure how you came to think I was speaking about something body-negative. Transcending the limits of the body-mind to the point of recognizing that we are not merely the body-mind actually grants one a greater freedom and impulse to allow the Divine Person in one's life more profoundly and to live life more fully..

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Now that is not to say that there is not a place for dying, Jesus did it, because he felt trying to save his life at that point would have caused more harm that good, and the beneficial aspects of the life he had led up to that point would have been diluted and lost.

Funny you mention this here - I was just thinking earlier how Jesus clearly provoked his arrest leading apparently to the physical death of his body-mind, and how this must have been for the reasons you just mentioned. His apparent physical death in the manner it occurred would have a much more profound impact than just some random ambush-murder of him.

Jesus' way is the way of self-transcending love or self-sacrifice in the Divine Person, and his apparent death was a powerful way of demonstrating such sacrifice. However, of course, I am not sure what his intentions were but certainly wouldn't want any one, especially a Divine master, to endure such a sacrifice.

reply to post by bb23108

. . . to live this life fully, one must first be reborn from the Divine Spirit Light Above.

You know, you are taking away any room to be critical in a philosophical way.
So, you force me to attack you in a personal way, except, oops, I think that is against the rules on this forum.
OK, what if I just called you one derogatory name?
Heathen!
How dare you not think of God as this old man with a long grey beard sitting on a throne on a cloud high up in the sky, looking down on us, judging, and throwing occasional lightning bolts on extreme offenders!!?
(I might be thinking of a different mythology, but you get the point, right?)

reply to post by jmdewey60

LOL. Pretty funny imagery there and very clever name calling! Yes, I suppose from the point of view of institutionalized Christianity I would be considered a heathen especially since I cannot accept the idea of the Creator-God, some All-Powerful Super-Entity looking down on us and wanting to take care of us. Such are ideas based in mankind's childish/adolescent insistence on separation from God and a constant search to re-unify with some objectified God-Idea in heaven.

Jesus taught otherwise - that we are not inherently separate from God - and he provided the means for undoing the modes we have created here of insisting on this separation. His modes of this "undoing" are his commandments of love and the process of transcending the limits of these mortal body-minds through the Spirit of the Divine Person. His exoteric commandments and Divine esoteric spiritual blessing are his way to awaken his followers, but most of this teaching has been long buried by the institutions of Christianity.

Jesus' way requires real responsibility for the whole-body mind - living rightly, always re-orienting one's life to the very Divine through love of God and neighbor, and allowing the Divine Person to reveal the Truth of one's existence.

reply to post by bb23108

. . . Divine esoteric spiritual blessing are his way to awaken his followers . . .

You make it seem so ethereal and, you know, unsubstantial.
How about some good old fashioned groveling, like getting down on your knees before the Great Almighty!!?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
You make it seem so ethereal and, you know, unsubstantial.
How about some good old fashioned groveling, like getting down on your knees before the Great Almighty!!?

Hahaha! Well one should do whatever it takes to love the Lord with all of one's heart, soul, mind, and strength! If one actually loves God that fully, one's inherent non-separation from the Divine Person would be obvious in this life as well as what is beyond this life.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Jesus refers to love as love or as the father. Paul refers to love as Christ, as Paul believed that Christ is the love of the world. To say believe in Jesus is to say believe in unconditional love. It is what Christ was teaching that is important.

Salvation comes to all of us differently, but the fruit of salvation is unconditional love. Is it possible to pursue and find unconditional love apart from Christ. If you believe that Christ is love, than reality says no, but do you need to believe Christ is love to pursue unconditional love? I don't believe that one has to believe in Christ to pursue loving as he did, I simply think that for most of us we need a teacher. He is love, the author of love, so it is fitting that we listen to him.

Faith without works is dead. One must pursue love to find love. There is no love found in the indifference many have come to accept as faith.

reply to post by sacgamer25

I don't believe that one has to believe in Christ to pursue loving as he did . . .

It sounds like you are saying that you can be God, basically, and just by your own natural abilities through human effort.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I don't believe that one has to believe in Christ to pursue loving as he did . . .

It sounds like you are saying that you can be God, basically, and just by your own natural abilities through human effort.

Man may repent and seek God only. It is up to the father when the man knows his salvation. For no one not even the son knows the day or time. Jesus says that his purpose is to loose none of those who the father gave him. If a man is not pursuing love he will not find it. If a man pursues love, Christ is the light/love of this world, than they will find love.

Since Christ is love as is the father as well, being that the son can only do what he sees the father doing. Then love can not be obtained apart from the source, which is Christ. Since Christ is the source of love it is up to him to reveal himself to a man.

There is nothing I could do to deserve the gifts poured out on me. But I could believe God and repent and pursue him like he asks. Just because my real parents love me, does that give me a license to disobey them? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of love. Anyone who pursues love will be filled with the Spirit of Love. It is when you understand this that you can more completely pursue Love/God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit/The Light/Wisdom. These are all the same word. "Love” Maybe God is more than love, but he sent his son to teach us that we only need to concern ourselves with love.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus says in order for you to remain in his love, you must keep his commandments. In other words, keep his commands and you are "saved".

Again, Jesus clearly says that in order to inherit eternal life, you must keep his two commandments.

It makes so much sense too, if we all truly kept his commands and truly loved one another as ourselves, there would be no war, no lies, no murder, etc. There would be peace on Earth and the world would be full of love. Heaven would truly be on Earth.

So my question is this: why do Christians believe that faith is what saves when Jesus clearly says keeping the Law is what saves?

This is how I interpret it. Jesus simply summed up the law. If you love God more then anything you will not hurt him by sinning. If you love your neighbor you will not hurt him by sinning against him. If you love everyone you will give charitably, I do not believe you must tithe. You give what you have not what you haven't. So all of the law falls under love in a sense. However it might be difficult for some to understand what they must do if they were not first exposed to the law.

Thall shall not kill, obviously falls under love. Love covers a multitude of sins. What Jesus was doing was breaking it down so people could understand why they must follow the law. Not that they do not have to follow the law. Godly sorrow also helps explain this teaching. To answer your final question, first I am not a Christian. I am a servant of God. I do as they say not as they do, as Jesus taught. I do not want to be counted among them.

Keeping the law shows faith through action, which is commanded of you. Saying you believe doesn't get you where you want to go. You must show faith through actions. Not words. If you have faith and believe in God our father, then you believe he sent Jesus to open the door to all. Then you also believe that love will keep you from sinning. I love my father in heaven. It hurts me to hurt him. Literally.

If you truly seek God you will feel the same. You should first humble yourself before him though. Hope this helped. God bless.

reply to post by sacgamer25

. . . I could believe God and repent and pursue him like he asks.

"Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness"
Thats what the New Testament says.
You are saying something different, that you are supposed to seek God.
To have that make sense, you make this claim that God = Loves, and by a step of logic that God = Jesus, then follows Jesus = Love.
This is based on a false premise, as all your premises listed in your post, by reading an English translation of a fragment of a text, then using your imagination as to what it means, disregarding the actual Greek language of the original, and its context.
God has acted in a loving way towards mankind by giving His son to save us. That is all it means, if you read it in a responsible way.
Instead, you seem to me to be throwing that to the wind in your enthusiasm to create a false method of salvation based on just imagining the goal is to be God, and that forces God to have to comply based of an interpretation of what you see as a legal contract that you have the power to enforce by force of will.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
If a man pursues love, Christ is the light/love of this world, than they will find love.

When you say "pursuing love" do you mean living Jesus' commandments of love? If so, can one actually love God fully as Jesus commands if one is only pursuing love rather than recognizing that one is already not separate from Love?

And also, didn't Jesus tell us that we are already (inherently) not separate from the Divine and all others, when he said to love one's neighbor as oneself? Doesn't his second commandment imply that we are not actually separate from all others, and on the basis of this essential recognition of our inherent unity, we are able to simply love our neighbors as our very self?

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Anyone who pursues love will be filled with the Spirit of Love.

When one truly loves God, one is already filled with the Spirit of Love. Simply pursuing love is seeking for it and thereby separating yourself from Love. But, again, if you mean something different by "pursuing love" please elaborate if you please.

Originally posted by AllGloryIsGods
If you truly seek God you will feel the same. You should first humble yourself before him though. Hope this helped. God bless.

I definitely agree that one should be very humble about our situation here, and Jesus' commandments to love are a real reflection that we tend to not be humble!

So Jesus gave these commandments to show us that our activity by tendency is anything but humble - rather it is self-obsessed, unloving, and full of seeking to relieve the pain of all this life. The more we live this way of love the more humble we become because we see how we do not tend to love, and cannot simply love. Thus humbled, we then may be fully surrendered to the Divine in love, and the Divine deeply gifts us further with Love.

One of the ways we have of relieving our suffering in life is to seek for God. But if you recognize the truth of Jesus' way, haven't you already found the Divine? Why keep seeking as though you have not found God - rather than simply and humbly living his commandments of love, thus allowing that whole egoic mechanism of seeking to come to rest, and the Divine to infill you with the Spirit of Love when God sees fit to?

People naturally have an imagination and you can imagine a lot of different things about yourself, including how maybe important you are.
Of course everyone has to have a sense of self-worth, for practical reasons, like for example to support a family, that doing that is important, their happiness and future and your key role in that.
Otherwise society would fall apart.
Included in that general sense of worth should be the same sort of sense about others, and that makes you a proper social being.
Thinking that you are somehow super-important makes you a sociopath.
One way to balance it out maybe is to think everyone is super-important, rather than necessarily tearing yourself down.
An individual person who happens to be god, would be important in an unusually concentrated way.
God, without people, would not be any more important than we would be without god, or the existence of a god or of gods, if there was more than one (which seems more likely than not to me).
So, I agree with the above posts about being humble, and I also think that we don't need to try to be god, we already have someone doing that right now.