A question about the Law

Here is a good theological summary of the Person and work of Jesus Christ:

4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

www.adventist. org

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I guess they thought the best way to avoid being punished was by rejecting his offer? I would think that rejecting an offer from god would make him even madder.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I guess they thought the best way to avoid being punished was by rejecting his offer? I would think that rejecting an offer from god would make him even madder.

I doubt it, that would imply the Jews chose an option God didn't anticipate beforehand.

One of the 4 things God cannot do is learn.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
So my question is this: why do Christians believe that faith is what saves when Jesus clearly says keeping the Law is what saves?

I think it would help if you defined further what you mean by faith. As I mentioned in my last post, true faith is based in a heart-feeling response when there is recognition of Truth. Some of the disciples upon seeing Jesus simply dropped their worldliness because their hearts awakened in faith based on a tacit heart-recognition of Jesus as the Divine. This capacity is inherent in the feeling heart.

However, belief is not the same as true faith. Belief typically is a fixed state of mind filled with presumptions that a belief system is true, whether such a system has been fully considered or not. Paul re-invented Christianity into such a belief system and told people to simply have faith in that system - a system that includes various beliefs that Jesus' sacrifice was also the believer's salvation and therefore did not require the believer to also transcend the separate self in love; and other presumptions by Paul, e.g., that everyone is inherently separate from God and would only be re-unified some time down the line.

So I am not sure how you are defining faith in your question, but it is important, imo, to consider this matter of faith further to help get your question answered.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So he knows all but didn't know they were going to reject his offer? How did he not anticipate it when he knew is what going to happen beforehand?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I think you should re-read what I said? It appears you have the exact opposite understanding of what I typed.

reply to post by bb23108

Paul re-invented Christianity into such a belief system and told people to simply have faith in that system - a system that includes various beliefs that Jesus' sacrifice was also the believer's salvation and therefore did not require the believer to also transcend the separate self in love; and other presumptions by Paul, e.g., that everyone is inherently separate from God and would only be re-unified some time down the line.

Paul did not "reinvent" Christianity.
What you are describing is not Christianity as taught by Paul but what official, institutional Christianity became under the Catholic Church.
I think you do not understand Paul, or maybe you are going by a bad interpretation of the "Pauline" books, not actually written by Paul himself, but were given the appearance of having been written by him, in order to have then admitted into the New Testament.
The "Paul" letters that are authentic: Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Perhaps you didn't see my response to you on the "Paul" thread the other day here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In that response some very definite differences between what Paul assumed and what Jesus actually taught were pointed out - especially relative to Paul setting up Jesus as a "to-be-believed-in-for-salvation" intermediary to the Divine vs. what Jesus actually was offering - a personal relationship with true followers who directly recognized him as Truth and his way of love, and who would practice his core commandments and allow themselves to be infilled by his Spirit in this life.

Jesus offered an immediacy to the Divine if his any follower maintained their love relationship with him as the Divine and practiced as he instructed them - while Paul only promised a re-union down the line and only if one believed in Jesus. This is a huge difference. Really, its a re-invention of Christianity from what Jesus was originally offering.

Please also see that link for other differences - relative to Paul assuming everyone is inherently full of sin and separate from the Divine, whereas Jesus did not assume this inherent separation between everyone and the Divine, in fact often called everyone children of God the Father - hardly a separative image.

reply to post by bb23108

Perhaps you didn't see my response to you on the "Paul" thread the other day here:

No, you guessed right, I didn't see it.
Probably because you were responding to two different people in the same post.
I would have responded to it if I had noticed it.
I'll check it out and see if I have any sort of reply to it.
I am interested in the subject, discrepancies between Paul and Jesus, and have written about that in the past.
I usually hand it to Paul as being the more accurate, as he had been preaching the Gospel for years before any of the 'Gospels' were written.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So what's your explanation? Why would the Hebrews refuse gods offer? If their mission was to bring people closer to god, they would have said yes to his offer, plain and simple.

Their decision to reject a personal relationship distanced them from god. How did they plan on bringing people closer to god if they kept distancing themselves from him?

reply to post by micmerci

No, by my logic, no one was ever saved by the keeping of the law. The result of the law is death but the result of grace is salvation. Prior to the death of Christ, no person ever kept the law in it's entirety. That is why it was necessary for the high priests to perform sacrifices for the redemption of sins. It has always been the sacrifice that has brought salvation. The sacrifice of Christ is the final sacrifice for the salvation of all who accept it as such.

Saved from what, hell?

Jesus not only followed and supported the "Law", he made it even harder.

Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

----------------------------

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

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48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Notice how Jesus says that those who break the law will still go to heaven, but will be called "the least" there.

reply to post by windword


I think theres a huge problem with what exactly Jesus considered "the law"

That is actually why I made this thread...

To those that call themselves "christian"

Jesus didn't follow the 613 laws... in fact he spoke out against many of them

His law was love... two commandments which all the law and the prophets hang on

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So what's your explanation? Why would the Hebrews refuse gods offer? If their mission was to bring people closer to god, they would have said yes to his offer, plain and simple.

Their decision to reject a personal relationship distanced them from god. How did they plan on bringing people closer to god if they kept distancing themselves from him?

I've given my explanation several times. They were scared, they just witnessed all the plagues He brought upon Egypt. So they made Moses ask God for rules for them to follow instead and God obliged their request.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Where does the Bible say that the Israelites rejected God's offer of a personal relationship with him, and favored rules?

The People's Fear Deut. 5.22-33

And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. Heb. 12.18, 19 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

21 ¶ And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away… See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity.

If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Your answer doesn't make sense. If the Hebrews feared god, why would they refuse his offer? I would think their fear of him would have convinced them to accept his offer.

reply to post by bb23108

Jesus offered an immediacy to the Divine if his any follower maintained their love relationship with him as the Divine and practiced as he instructed them - while Paul only promised a re-union down the line and only if one believed in Jesus. This is a huge difference. Really, its a re-invention of Christianity from what Jesus was originally offering.

Your post on the other thread seems to be a longer version of what you said here.
I can't hardly imagine you being more wrong.
I would say that the exact opposite is more likely to be true, than your take.
I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion so it is rather worthless.

The Gospels have an approach of 'proving' Jesus was the basis for a religion because he fulfilled the proper requirements.
His intimacy was mostly with three persons according to the stories found in these gospels.
When Paul was preaching, he was dealing with the daily realities of all those people on earth who were left behind when Jesus ascended to heaven to reign there at the right hand of God.
God is the goal of what Jesus did, to reconcile us with God.
Jesus did not come to earth to teach people to be all devotional to him.
Paul gives the prescription to mankind to connect with God through the spirit of God, that is given by the intermediary, Jesus. So, the real and proper intimacy is the one that Paul describes.

reply to post by Akragon


Right!

As you may know, it's my belief that Jesus was an Essene. The Essenes didn't believe in animal sacrifice or in the death penalty for sinners who broke the "Law." They did offer rehabilitation, taking criminals into their community for reform. They also offered initiation retreats which lasted 3 years, in which initiates followed the Nazarite law. Paul is said to have gone through their process.

The Essenes believed that the "Law" had been violated by the Temple priests and scribes, and that they had changed it and added to it. I believe that the Essenes believed that Jesus was "The One" that they had been expecting and gave him full authority to teach and interpret the true Torah, in it's mystical essence and it's universal truth.

I don't think that Jesus would have wanted to see an end to circumcision as an outward sign of faith or the Sabbath day changed, as the early church did, any more than he wanted to see the stoning of a "Law" breaker.

reply to post by windword


The easiest way to see what Jesus taught and what he didn't is to use his own method... that being love of course...

IF you go through those laws you can see some he followed... but others I feel he would be disgusted by...

Usury being at the front of that list... which will actually eventually be the downfall of our species...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by windword

 

His law was love... two commandments which all the law and the prophets hang on

Right. And those commandments would only be fulfilled moment to moment when one utterly resorts to the Divine and recognizes one's inherent unity. How else could one love one's neighbor as oneself except by recognizing one's inherent non-separation from God and everyone? Jesus offered the relationship to him, his example, and his teaching, in this life - all that made this most essential recognition obvious.

If one fully lived these two laws, the true morality of the heart would awaken and all the other secondary laws relative to murder, etc. would not necessary for such a one whose very basis in life is non-separative love of God and all. Such a one would not murder, etc., based on deep recognition of one's inherited/inherent unity.

reply to post by bb23108


Perhaps you can understand why I believe he "god" of the OT is a false God

How can God be love if the OT God is the example?

Even John and Paul disagree with him...