It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

A question about the Law

page: 5
8
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 31 2013 @ 09:31 PM
link   
reply to post by Siberbat
 


So you agree that Paul was wrong, correct? Paul says Jesus was the end of the law, you say he wasn't, only a fulfillment of it.



posted on Mar, 31 2013 @ 09:39 PM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Well, let's look at this interpetation of Romans 10:4. Seems its a matter of translating the Greek to English.

To properly grasp the meaning of Romans 10:4, we must first understand what Paul meant by the phrase “the end of the law.” The Greek word translated “end” is telos (Strong’s #5056), meaning “the point aimed at; result.” In other words, Paul is saying that God’s spiritual Law, which God also calls “holy, and just, and good” (Rom. 7:12), points to Christ, who “[left] us an example, that you should follow His steps” (I Pet. 2:21). It is Christ living in us that enables us to keep God’s holy, perfect Law, which we lack the spiritual strength to keep, of and by ourselves (Rom. 7:14-25; 8:7-8). The Christian’s ultimate goal is to become like Christ, “the Author and Finisher of our faith” (Heb. 12:2).



posted on Mar, 31 2013 @ 09:42 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Well, Jesus was pretty rude then for attacking the Pharisees for not knowing who He was then wasn't He? Kinda evil for Him to pronounce spiritual blindness on the Jews for not knowing the "Day of their Visitation" then huh??
No, I don't think so.
They were expecting someone.
Jesus was there demonstrating the power of God and saying he was there to fulfill some messianic prophecies.
So they were spiritually blind.
Now, from the point of view of those people who were given the opportunity to make a decision on believing in him or not, what they knew at that point was that here was this man making claims about himself and appearing to be performing miracles.
Was that the same thing that you think you know which you base your salvation on?
No, I would think there is more, like Jesus dying and being risen from the dead, and then ascending into heaven.
None of those people, including his own disciples, could have predicted that.
edit on 31-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2013 @ 09:49 PM
link   
reply to post by Siberbat
 

A valiant attempt Siberbat. But this is something even mature Christians sometimes struggle to comprehend. Your trying to feed meat to someone who hasn't yet finished with milk. Not an easy task.



posted on Mar, 31 2013 @ 11:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Well, Jesus was pretty rude then for attacking the Pharisees for not knowing who He was then wasn't He? Kinda evil for Him to pronounce spiritual blindness on the Jews for not knowing the "Day of their Visitation" then huh??
No, I don't think so.
They were expecting someone.
Jesus was there demonstrating the power of God and saying he was there to fulfill some messianic prophecies.
So they were spiritually blind.
Now, from the point of view of those people who were given the opportunity to make a decision on believing in him or not, what they knew at that point was that here was this man making claims about himself and appearing to be performing miracles.
Was that the same thing that you think you know which you base your salvation on?
No, I would think there is more, like Jesus dying and being risen from the dead, and then ascending into heaven.
None of those people, including his own disciples, could have predicted that.
edit on 31-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


Why not? Even the Samaritan woman at the well knew the Messiah was coming and ran to tell her city she had found Him. Did the Jews not have Isaiah 53? The eunuch knew as much riding with Phillip. You're quite wrong, they knew He was coming one day, and Christ held them accountable for not knowing the exact day.



posted on Mar, 31 2013 @ 11:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So by being terrified of him, they rejected his offer? One does not relate to the other.


They rejected His offer, asked Moses to let them have laws to follow. God said okay, gave them 613.



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 12:23 AM
link   
reply to post by Siberbat
 


Where did the writer get the meaning of telos from?


Main Entry: te·los
Pronunciation: ˈte-ˌläs, ˈtē-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek; probably akin to Greek tellein to accomplish, tlēnai to bear — more at tolerate
Date: 1904
: an ultimate end


Link


telos (n.)
1904, from Greek telos "the end"


Link

It doesn't mean what your article says it means, they just used a round about way of not accepting the contradiction. I guess they thought defining end would change its meaning? Whoever wrote that does not know what they're talking about in my opinion.

The point aimed at is the Earth disappearing, as Jesus said the law would not end until it did. Paul clearly contradicts that by sating Jesus was the end. If that were true, we wouldn't be here right now.





edit on 1-4-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 01:24 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

If you go to a deeper level, ignoring the superficial fact that different words are used, you may find the possibility that "Faith" (which is about throwing yourself upon God in trust) comes to much the same thing as loving God with all your heart.




edit on 1-4-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 02:17 AM
link   

Originally posted by DISRAELI
If you go to a deeper level, ignoring the superficial fact that different words are used, you may find the possibility that "Faith" (which is about throwing yourself upon God in trust) comes to much the same thing as loving God with all your heart.
Yes! Real faith is about trust of and true surrender to the Divine - and only such surrender makes possible the fulfilling of Jesus' core commandments to love.

However, this understanding of faith is not so obvious because much of the faith spoken about in the Bible, and particularly by Paul, has to do with simply believing in Jesus and with that belief system comes the promise of salvation (re-union with God) at some future date.

Paul basically re-invented Christianity into a faith-based religion where Jesus became the intermediary to be objectified and worshiped by believers in order for them to be saved and re-unified with God in heaven some day. This is very different from Jesus' gift of direct relationship with him as the very Divine, available to all who surrender to the Divine every day and allow themselves to be infilled and altogether transformed with his blessing love and inherent capacity to live the life of loving God with the whole body-mind and neighbor as oneself - i.e., inherently, and from the beginning, recognizing one's non-separate unity with God.

Jesus did not teach that there should be a mediator between everyone and God to merely be believed in - because Jesus did not assume the inherent separation between man and God that was traditionally assumed and also assumed by Paul. Jesus called everyone to feel and love the Divine directly and he blessed them with his company, example, and Spirit to do so. Jesus was One with the Father and called all of his followers to this same eternal enjoyment and freedom directly.

Such true faith is heart-based, full of feeling, and is his direct blessing with love - much deeper than belief which generally is mentally-based, dry, conceptual, and always subject to doubt.

edit on 1-4-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 06:51 AM
link   
People wanna have the cake and eat is to and eat other people cake also. Non-duality is hard to understand when you got an ego. That the happiness of one person is connected to all other people happiness. People tend to be greedy in material possession to the extent that they enslave other people to get more. That is what the economic system is today. An enslavement of some souls to make a good life for other souls.

You can say that you are only playing the system but that excuse will only fly on small minded people. God/blessed ONES are immune to those excuses of the mind/ego.
edit on 1-4-2013 by LittleByLittle because: Spellchecking



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 06:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by Murgatroid

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
So my question is this: why do Christians believe that faith is what saves when Jesus clearly says keeping the Law is what saves?

The blood of the Lamb is what saves.

If the law could save us, Jesus death was for nothing.

Why even STUDY the Word if you don't believe it?


Jesus death only meant that he went home. I am not impressed that Jesus died and was not afraid of death. You ask an en-light-ened person if he/she thinks being a human on earth is harder than being at home in the light/oneness with god.

I am impressed with that Jesus left god and took a mission and made a pretty god job doing it. I thank him for that sacrifice. Dying to go home is not such a big deal when you know where you are gonna end up.



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 07:21 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Because they have found their own meaning in the scriptures and used it to fortify their own ego rather than repent their ego and be born again as a selfless creature. However in some cases I believe they are saying that you should have faith in Christ's teaching i.e the two primary laws that you have shown.

But let us not miss this point: He does not say 'do this and you will be rewarded' he says 'its the law' it being the law implies that it is still active whether you choose to obey/believe or not. He isnt telling us what to do so much as giving us a hint at how the universe works.

The best way I can put it is this, the world is like a mirror of yourself, if you stretch out your hand to it in friendship, the image in the mirror will also stretch out its hand in friendship, but if you hold back in fear, anger and hatred then the image in the mirror will do the same.

I believe in God, and my faith could not be shaken by a million billion tonnes of momentum, but my faith is only this strong because I have discovered it myself and I know personally the REASONS.

But in a sense most zealous atheists are right when they laugh at religion for being a ridiculous fairy story which binds and confines the believers of it. The true Lord frees not binds. And the clergy have absolutely no interest in freedom, or God, but in power and control, and so they have twisted the scriptures to ensure the continuation of their own power "You must confess your faith to be saved and nothing more"

This is ridiculous. I mean I met this so called christian who said (not exact words but basically the jist) If you're a muslim and you save a million ethiopian children from starvation you are still going to burn in hell because you dont call yourself a christian, and if youre a christian and you confess jesus you will go to heaven even if you murder and rape people.

And my reply to him was a quote from Paul from acts I think:

'if one says 'i follow paul' and another says 'i follow apollos' are you not mere men? are you not the same as every other? quarelling over fickle matters of alleigance to one sub-section or another? But no, what makes me and apollos stand out is that we are brothers united in Christ'

Do you really think The allmighty all powerful infinite Godhead gives one single flying monkeys about what building you go to, what book you carry and what hat you wear and what you put on your facebook page as your religion? What does ANY of that matter if we are not kind to each other.

All God wants is for us to love each other and to love him, no matter of creed race religion gender or any other IMAGINARY BOUNDARIES WHICH WE HUMANS CREATE TO OUR OWN DESTRUCTION.

This is slightly off topic, but a passing thought to end my post with:

I was looking at an atlas the other day and it suddenly struck me that the lines on the map which define countries are MADE UP, they dont exist, and whats worse WE created them, and then we KILL EACH OTHER BECAUSE OF THESE NON EXISTENT LINES. Humans are utterly stupid thats all i can say



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 08:15 AM
link   

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The Law can be summed up with two simple commandments that Jesus proposed, to love god and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said on more than one occasion that in order to pass to life, you must keep the commandments.


John 15
10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father's commandments and remain in his love.


Jesus says in order for you to remain in his love, you must keep his commandments. In other words, keep his commands and you are "saved".


Luke 10
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”


Again, Jesus clearly says that in order to inherit eternal life, you must keep his two commandments.

It makes so much sense too, if we all truly kept his commands and truly loved one another as ourselves, there would be no war, no lies, no murder, etc. There would be peace on Earth and the world would be full of love. Heaven would truly be on Earth.

So my question is this: why do Christians believe that faith is what saves when Jesus clearly says keeping the Law is what saves?




Yes keep His commandments to abide in His love. What is saved or what does saved mean? Saved from what? Do you believe that every single person will be resurrected but each in their own order? God will deal with each man individually and everyone will be held accountable but eventually everyone becomes "saved". Saved from a place that has been described as burning with hellfire and brimstone. This description of hell is a fake and man made fairy tale. We will be saved from ourselves all in due time. Christ no only has the power to save all men but he uses it to do just that. Given enough time all will come to repentance and fall in love with the Redeemer.



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 09:04 AM
link   
Without evil, then there wouldn't be "good" -There would just be. ying-yang. Comparison. If everyone was good, then evil would be defined differently. Same way as if everyone was evil, then good would be defined differently.
It's impossible to have peace here on earth because the devil reigns, without Satan, people would see no purpose to follow god's commandments.
edit on 1-4-2013 by Redwhiteandblue because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 09:26 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You're quite wrong, they knew He was coming one day, and Christ held them accountable for not knowing the exact day.
I think you are loosing track of your own statements you have made.
We aren't talking about the people who saw and heard Jesus being "held accountable".
That is something entirely different to people back in the time of Noah or whatever or even later, after the writings of the Prophets, knowing the Gospel and believing in it to be 'saved'.
You are using an argument of giving an example of people specifically not saved.
That doesn't work.
There can only be one solution, which is a judgment by works, and using a standard that fits the circumstances of the individual.
That's the only thing supported by the Bible, and not whatever theory you are concocting that merely believing something is good enough.
That is something that is your cult's philosophy, and not the Bible.

edit on 1-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 09:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So gentiles were never given the chance to be saved during the Law? That doesn't sound very fair.


It does not matter what humans preach. Why would god play favorites to one view that is still an simplification of what is and therefor an idol of god? If you wanna believe one view is the most effective route to god for all then believe it but that belief does not make it true. It is just a continuation of duality, eating the small minded apple of thinking you know right from wrong for everybody else.

I believe that the most effective route for most souls have not been uncovered yet by humans because if it was all would have been enlightened right now.



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 09:50 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That's because before the atonement man was forgiven of their sin, but they were yet to be atoned for.
You are just making this up.
It doesn't say in the New Testament that sins need to be atoned for.
Jesus was an atonement, it says, but it is just a conciliatory gift to bring God and man together, and it is obviously used in a metaphorical sense.
You are taking that, and misunderstanding it to support a theory of salvation where your sins have to be somehow 'paid' for.



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 11:44 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


That still doesn't explain why they rejected his offer. If they were trying to bring people closer to God, they would have accepted his offer. There's no reason for them to reject a personal relationship when that's what they were aiming for all along.



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 01:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


That still doesn't explain why they rejected his offer. If they were trying to bring people closer to God, they would have accepted his offer. There's no reason for them to reject a personal relationship when that's what they were aiming for all along.



Again, they had just seen what God did to the Egyptians. They were scared and asked for rules to follow instead.

I can't speak for them. I can just tell you what they said to Moses.



posted on Apr, 1 2013 @ 01:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

That's because before the atonement man was forgiven of their sin, but they were yet to be atoned for.
You are just making this up.
It doesn't say in the New Testament that sins need to be atoned for.
Jesus was an atonement, it says, but it is just a conciliatory gift to bring God and man together, and it is obviously used in a metaphorical sense.
You are taking that, and misunderstanding it to support a theory of salvation where your sins have to be somehow 'paid' for.


Don't pretend like you've never heard of the theological doctrine or concept of the atonement until now.



new topics

top topics



 
8
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join